Autopsy Pretty Much Rules Out Candice Berner’s Death Anything But Wolves
March 12, 2010
Hat tip to reader “jes” for information contained in this article.
Perhaps the only question remaining is which wolf or group of wolves were responsible for the mauling death of 32-year old Candice Berner, who at the time of her death was living in Chignik Bay on the Alaska Peninsula. The autopsy, authorities say, along with circumstantial evidence has ruled out attack by any other predator but wolves. Further testing might reveal which wolf or wolves did the actual attack.
Ms. Berner had her own blog, The Adventures of an Alaskan Bush Teacher and wrote and posted pictures of her life for the short time she had been in Alaska. From her blog it appears she was very much familiar with the outdoors and at least some of the potential dangers of living on the Kenai. She wrote this pertaining to wolves:
Chignik Lake’s mascot is a wolf and it sits in the lobby of the school. It’s a great reminder of what lurks outside in the wilderness and to be on the alert at all times. The wolf population in Alaska is rather large and some believe they are the reason for the decrease in moose and caribou.
My thoughts and prayers go out to all of Ms. Berner’s family and friends. What a tragic loss.
Tom Remington
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[...] Autopsy Pretty Much Rules Out Candice Berner's Death Anything But … [...]
thanks Tom.
“My thoughts and prayers go out to all of Ms. Berner’s family and friends.”
Priest Maughans flock have been marginalizing the death since it was announced.. It is all her fault for running in Alaska to stay fit.. Wolves belong in rural areas with people… There shoulda been a glass bubble over the town to keep the wolves safer from some careless jogger.. Will there ever be justice for the fruit loops who put wolves over the rest of us ????
What a Beautiful young lady with so much to offer.. Far more to offer than parasite infested over populated wolves..
It really brings out the illness these people suffer from that they actually have difficulty understanding that human life has so much more value than a wild dog or any other animal for that matter.
First our sincere condolences to this unfortunate young woman’s family.
We have been concerned about “bold wolves” in and around our village in central Idaho for a few years now. When we tell people in the city what is going on – the usual reaction is “wolves have never attacked … (blah blah)…”
The true “native” Dire wolves in North America went extinct with the other “mega fauna” roughly 12,000 years ago. The descendants of Asian wolves and people arrived here about the same time. So I don’t buy into the propaganda that “wolves were here first” – if they were – it was only by hundreds of years. It upsets me that modern people forget the First People – who were hunters not vegetarians. Well armed hunters that would not permit large predators to terrorize their villages.
*Disclaimer – my PHD is in Post Hole Diggin’
Mine is “Piled Higher and Deeper”
I read some of the comments on the page and I think some of those people need their ass kicked. At the very least make them go out in the wild by themselves in wolf country and spend at least a week. Give them a gun and a bat for protection ( be interesting to see which one they use), and just leave them alone and see what happens. Any wild animal can be dangerous but we should have the right to protect ourselves from harm. If these people get attacked in the city by thugs do they blame themselves for being in the wrong place at the wrong time or blame the thugs or is it because the thugs had a poor upbringing and shoouldn’t be blamed. I live with the wolves, bears, cougars etc, see them on my property every year and I can live with them but if I have to shoot one I don’t want to hear shit about how I shouldn’t because they were here first. Really they weren’t unless you know of any predators that live over 20 or 30 years old. Man has a right to defend himself regardless of if it’s from a wild animal or a crazy human.
PHD
Pantheism–The preposterous idea fostered by Malthusians that god is in everything. Rocks, trees, sea weed, wolves, Centered on Gaia worship, the earth goddess as expanded on by Lovecraft in his book, absolute piffle.
Harmonization (UN/G8/Agenda 21 term) New World Order Lingo for ” Do as we say or else.”
Darwin, Charles or Erasmus. Both Theorists who expressed the idea that man originated from Monkeys. Darwin’s and Priest Maughans family and his flock of fools may well have their roots in monkeys, Mine does not.
This gal was doing a good job teaching special education kids, and meeting all the native folks. She had a good grasp of the outdoors, and the dangers involved, and had run a trap line with her friends, as well as hunted and fished with the local population. She knew the dangers involved and often took along a pair of dogs with her when she was jogging, as she was training for her competitive goals, as she knew their presence would deter some of the dangers of wildlife. From what I can gather, the dogs were a friend’s and were not with her at this time of attack.
Evidently, the wolves have been on the increase in this area, are already fitting into the classic pattern of sizing up the population before making attacks…The population should have started an all-out assault on any and all wolves within the perimeter of the area a long time ago…….It is not worth the price of one human life when we are ambivalent.
And this is the cost.
I’ve made a venture onto that site you talk about Greg, where I first saw thia article. It disturbs me that people are talking about it being a shame that wolves will be killed because of this woman. I’m getting the impression they think she was careless and now wolves will be killed. That kinda makes it sound like it’s her fault.
‘‘it is an injustice when the animal is blamed and killed in these situations.’
I read that and thought what the hell? An injustice? The wolf killed her! Maybe more than one wolf! Injustice?? Blamed? Did this woman slather her body in tastey deer scent and say come and get it? She was killed. And a family is without their loved one. And now there is a wolf or wolves out there that have learned of an easy prey at hand. I don’t like wonton killing but damnit…
Harley, you’re definitely getting the picture, now..There is a great deal of lunacy out there when it comes to wolves…It makes me think of the great popularity of vampire movies nowadays..and the movies are not out to scare you any more, they are there to seduce you…
People who worry about what others will think of them for protecting themselves will probably be the ones who suffer for it. Don’t wait for someone to tell you when it is okay to protect yourself from these predators. The residents of this town in Alaska need to take care of things now and eleminate this threat now.
Don’t wait for another person to be killed by Wolves.
The people are at fault for allowing the wolves to build up in population and live to near rural areas, towns, and homes.. The wolves should be knocked back to the lowest viable numbers possible with out wiping them out completely.. The people are at fault for allowing these bullies calling themselves ” environmentalists” to sway political correctness.. Now a very talented bright beautiful young lady has been cheated of her life and future knowledge she could have gained and shared..
The Bible hating science is god people posting at the Priest Maughan blog are sick in their heads..
I agree they need to be kept to a minimum not wiped out. They apparently have lost there fear of humans if they had any to begin with. Hunting will put that fear back in them and teach them to respect and fear humans again.
There are some sensible seeming people over there, they don’t all seem like liberal demon spawn! But the attitude of some just kinda blew my mind. I’m probably opening myself up for some interesting comments. So far they’ve been fairly polite. But when they start talking along the lines of, she should have known better and so on and so forth I can’t help but thinking, oh, ok so that’s like saying a young lady walking at night is just asking to be attacked and because she was attacked, some poor schmuck has to go to jail now…
That is just what they are saying. I wonder if it were there daughter or wife who was killed would they feel the same way.
The huge red flag ” This blog is moderated” meaning censored, presented when one goes to that blogs home page says it all, and it tells any deep thinking person who those people really are.. I’ve watched Jon Marvel, Ralph Maughan, Brian Ertz, and others from that group fabricate lies about open meetings in Idaho about the wolf problem, and manipulate grazing data against cattle ranchers using public leases to benefit their so-called case.. Just think about this, the elk in Idaho are nearly destroyed, lets remove the cattle and sheep buffer zone to give the wild things more lands, as if they need it, which is another lie, Then you will have more wolves hanging around rural areas and towns than we do now.. These people over there are complete fools. Romans 1-22 ” Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools..” Jeremiah 10-14 ” Every man is brutish in his knowledge; every founder is confounded by the graven image (in this case the wolf) for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.”
I do like ” Saves Bears ” ” Talks with bears ” “Cobra” at that place, but those gentlemen also are very deceived. And of course I love it when Bob Fanning posts in there, and then they all attack him like he is some devil.. I recently pulled one of that flock away from them, and they have lost that person forever to and open mind, unlike theirs..
Once a wild animal tastes human blood it must be destroyed.. There are millions of acres for the wolves to live on, they do not need to, nor can they ever function around rural homes and towns being frequented by us. We have kept the bears back and the cougars. the bears sleep for several months during winter.. The additional over population of wolves is a real problem, and it will get worse. Geist and Graves are spot on.. We don not need wolves in our yards, and cougars in our barns…
Dave, I don’t know where you’re coming from, but it isn’t as a hunter, sportsman, or conservative American…Either you’re a stoolie, or just plain dumb…Personally I think you’re just another one of those damn wolf lovers who has his head up his ass. Maybe you’d like to prove otherwise. Go ahead.
Or maybe you’d like to read the article and this blog and find out where you went wrong…
Ok, I put this in the other place, I’ll repost it here…
Ok… let me try another perspective here, one that perhaps I’m more familiar with.
There’s a drive by shooting on the south side of Chicago. An innocent young child who has no gang affiliation gets killed because she was outside, playing in her front yard. Do we say, bad mother, she should have known better than to let her child play outside on the south side of Chicago where gangs are Nortorious for drive bys? Or do we say, this gang crap has got to stop…
(yeah, I know, these are animals, not humans, just putting that out there so you all know I know the distinction…)
I was born here, if every one what moved here wants to leave because they feel that they encroached, that’s fine with me, don’t let the door hit them on their ass. We can start with Californian Jon Marvel, and Utahan Ralph Maughan, and then those eighty thousand wolf lovers multimillion dollar homes sitting on top of all that elk habitat in the Sun Valley Idaho, Ketchum Idaho, and Hailey Idaho area..
jes, I am a hunter and some hunters actually like wolves. I happen to be one of the few it seems. Wolves are carnivores. They don’t shop at the butcher counter in grocery stores. They kill creatures in the wild in order to obtain food. Wolves will eat rodents as small as mice, and will bring down caribou, elk, and moose. They are cautious around humans, but it is not entirely outlandish to rule out an attack on a human if they are hungry and easier prey is not available. They are beautiful, intelligent, and fascinating creatures, but they are wild carnivores and we cannot fault them for doing what wild carnivores do.
” we cannot fault them for doing what wild carnivores do. ”
NO SHIT. That is why we control them.
Wolves do not kill just for food. There are documented cases of wolves killing for sport leaving uneaten elk by the numbers lying where they fell to the wolves
This lady’s death is very tragic, but I have to say that anyone with an ounce of sense does not go jogging alone in any wilderness setting and expect nothing to happen. As humans encroach more and more on wild animal habitat it is only natural for animals to consider any living creature fair game and part of the food chain that they are.
I am not trying to diminish her death; I hope her family will find some peace. But this is no different than diving in shark-infested waters – you are food to a hungry animal. And while I am sorry for her and her family, I am equally sad for the poor animals who will be hunted down and exterminated for the heinous crime of following their instincts.
A rural road is hardly wilderness area. Comparing my walking down the road of my property to diving into shark infested waters is lame.
Dave, asshole, why don’t YOU try living in “wilderness country” and tell us how to go about it?
You have already diminished this woman’s death by putting wolves before human beings…You are no hunter, no true American, and simply another asshole who is playing make believe games on the internet.
Go back to your New York cafe and sip your latte, weasel.
Dave – I think you have “rural” and “wilderness” confused. No one is allowed to build subdivisions in real wilderness. There is also a difference between “wilderness” and private property – county roads, etc. Maybe you are so used to the city, that any country lane is a wilderness to you?
You obviously don’t live in “wolf country” – but perhaps they will move into your “territory” soon and you can find out. Until you live with wolves you have no idea what it is like.
I’m not attacking you – but your naive attitude.
Where we live the wolves have been killing horses and dogs for the last several years. They have followed hikers, howled and growled around campers, and walk boldly thru our town – they howl from the school yard at night and the fire station in the middle of the day. I get tired of flatlanders saying “get used to it.”.
It’s funny how I lived in North Idaho for over 20 years now and never had wolves on my property or around town until about 3 or 4 years ago. We did have an occasional bear come into town and at night a few coyotes stealing cats but now we’ve got wolves coming into town and on the golf course at night. This just in the last 3 or 4 years. Town has been here since the late 1800′s and early 1900′s. How can we be enroaching on wolves when the towns have been here since the late 1800′s and the wolves have just started coming around town for the last 3 or 4 years? Wolves are an amazing very effecient predator and I would be lieing if I said I didn’t like hearing them and seeing them, but there has to be a balance, and shooting a few wolves is not going to cause extinction, it may however make them more aware that hanging around towns and numbers of people may not be a good idea.
Thank you all over here for not making me feel like a complete jackass, even when my perceptions may not be in line with yours.
Harley, you have good sense, and a good attitude for understanding, no matter what a crock of jackanapes have to say about you…As Tom wrote in another article on this week’s posting: “The Environmentalist”, there are plenty of people who may have plenty of education, but no good sense.
And their educational knowledge will most often be used for the detriment of not only their own environment, but yours and mine, as well…..
Just because someone has knowledge, does not determine how they will use it.
The Soviet Environmentalist ! FACT.
Priest Maughan in his desperation to discredit the state police and the coroner of the community where this tragedy has occurred has posted and L.A. Times Article now, attempting to debunk those two state agencies involved in the recovery and examination of the young lady killed by wolves. These Soviet anti American environmentalist have no compassion, or conscience. The marginalization of this young lady’s death by wolves continues by these cretins.
From blaming humans for living their lives to whining about this so-called anger towards a wild animal, specifically the wolf.. Wolves just do what wolves do, EXACTLY you bunch of mental midget Priest Maughan Sheople.. EXACTLY.. That is why wolves need to be managed and kept in fear of man, and kept in wilderness and forest lands, NOT IN OR AROUND RURAL LIVING AREAS… The anger is not towards the wolves, the anger is towards humans who will not allow other humans to control their own local environments..
Quite frankly the maughanites need to get a life.. A real one.
The “environmentalists” are not responsible for the number of wolves around Chignik Bay. The wolf season is open for about 9 months of the year, the limit is 10 wolves per day..
Then they need to go after the 4 that have been growing so bold coming up into the town and making the town’s people very nervous. If we are to believe those comments in the LA Times article…
Lee, maybe you need to realize what you have just said. If wolves are open to killing for 9 months of the year, and a limit of ten, then why are there so many?
Could it be that wolves are difficult to find and kill? If you acknowledge that is the case, then why are all the wolf lovers, like yourself, in such an uproar over opening the season on wolves? Think it over……
I think the smart thing to do as far as hunting them is to list them as a predator like the coyote here in Wyoming. open season 24-7 no license that way when you see a wolf you could shoot it. I imagine as hard as they are to hunt anyway you wouldn’t really impact the population all that much and it would teach them to avoid humans much more than they do now.
Jim, that’s pretty much what we’re fighting for….and the only answer that makes good sense. Either that, or they are going to get back on the “exterminate” list, after they kill a few more kids….
Here we go again with the environmentalbliss, wolves just doing what wolves do, chasing and killing. Maybe if she would have been wearing some of that fladry flagging shit the wolves would have known better than to chase her? Just goes to show you when walking in wolf country carry your twelve gauge pepper spray.
jes
I admire wolves and am not in an uproar.
Their not Conservationist’s their Destructionists. Their not Environmentally Conscious their (Ph.D.) Psychotic Hallucinating Despotic (Ph.D.) Tyrants. Run nature our way or hit the highway. These moronic assholes need to be introduced to the nail bat.
Alaska’s wolf man, Frank Glaser (1895-1974) government (FWS) wolf hunter 1915-55, Admired wolves to, and he killed several of them to save Moose, Caribou, Mountain Goats, and even wolves themselves.
Lee, you accuse Greg very often of not answering your questions, yet you are doing the same thing, are you not? You did get the question, did you not? Let me repeat it. Just why would you not want wolves to be open to shooting when they are as many as there are where there is such an open season, as there is in Chignik Bay? Just how many people have to die before you would ok a season on wolves? Or do you truly think that a wolf has the same value as a man/woman? Or is there ever a reason to kill one at all? Answer any and/or all.
Greg is correct in his statements. He is correct nearly 100% of the time. And he is correct in calling them what they are – to their faces.
“The “environmentalists” are not responsible for the number of wolves around Chignik Bay,” says lee.
What kind of a statement is that? You wash your hands of the situation all of a sudden when there is accountability to be had. Cowards – Everyone.
ar, COWARDS is a pretty sharp word for them, but considering they don’t have to live with their wolfie friends, I’d say it’s apt…..good call!
Another indoctrinational Ronstatement. Cowards all of you. The information is available and you all deny it. Cowards, lazy, hypocrits.
Ron, you obviously do not come here often enough or try to understand the people here. I think its pretty safe to say no one here ‘hates’ wolves, just all the flippin BS that follows these types of clashes. Regardless, these are the facts as i’ve seen them… A woman was killed. 4 wolves have been making the rest of the town people nervous, even before this. But…we don’t want to kill them because….
Ron, dude, your presumptions are the pits…You have as much knowledge of me as you have about wolves. Could be that you need to live with them like the Treadwell guy, and live out the rest of your life as wolf scat. This is the first of RECENT attacks only, since we only have what recorded history we want to see on the internet…Go read Will Graves, and come back with the wows, “I didn’t know they killed so many people”
History is only what you make of it…and the truth is more of what you live, than what you read, unless you have learned to do both with wisdom…
Your only valid point is that humans are more of a danger than wolves, and that needs no elucidation…
And it’s about time we used ourselves and our talents to rid ourselves of this plague….at least control it.
Jim Richards must be close to my age with his following statement:
“I think the smart thing to do as far as hunting them is to list them as a predator like the coyote here in Wyoming. open season 24-7 no license that way when you see a wolf you could shoot it. I imagine as hard as they are to hunt anyway you wouldn’t really impact the population all that much and it would teach them to avoid humans much more than they do now.”
The norm in the day, was as Jim says. For the simple fact they are hard to get near, especially after being shot at. The detrimental affect on their numbers are enough to always shoot them and always have and open season with a bounty.
In this approach, the hunt is always on and the Numbers are always known and registered, like any good constitutional state-run game service.
The young age has a lot to do with misinformation. I have shoes older than some of these folks seem to be.
Its all about education if she would have been more educated she would have known that wolves are just misunderstood right Ron? Hug a wolf mentality requires that we be forgiving of our brother the wolf, and learn to live with one an other in peace and tranquility.
jes
Just why would you not want wolves to be open to shooting ( I said nothing about wanting or not wanting a shooting season) when they are as many as there are where there is such an open season, as there is in Chignik Bay? ( I have no idea what the population of wolves is in that area.) Just how many people have to die before you would ok a season on wolves? (I don’t think the number of people killed has had anything to do with setting hunting seasons.) Or do you truly think that a wolf has the same value as a man/woman? (depends on the person – as a society man seems to feel that some people should be killed for certain crimes. Crimes are commited by people not by other animals.
Lee, you gave me exactly what I was looking for when you said:
“I don’t think the number of people killed has had anything to do with setting hunting seasons”
The reason this Continent has been successful at avoiding wolf kills on humans is due to fire arms ownership, and Freedom. Along with real Conservation Models since the early 20th Century.
The rest of the world’s populations during the same time frames did not fare as well as they were living under despotic rulers, and they were disarmed peasants.. In Russia in particular the wild wolves enjoyed a free for all against those people and Will Graves has proven it to be the truth.
Most often when a person faces off with a bear or cougar the person can scare that creature off, the wolf pack is not afraid of any unarmed human.. We are seeing Val Geists studies concerning wolves habituating to humans becoming the reality of wolves he warned us of..
There will always be careless, selfish, dishonest people among us, we know who they are they are the American soviet environmentalists. Science is their god and any lie will do..
It’s almost den hunting time.
I see some of you like to bring up Will Graves quite often. What you feel to mention is that Will Graves was a hunter and a livestock inspector. Last I checked, he wasn’t a wolf biologist. I’m not really surprised a hunter and a livestock inspector is saying negative things about wolves. All you are doing jes is trying to find any reason you can to justify the shooting of wolves.
Buddy, I’m not looking for answers, I’m looking for solutions for a problem that is starting to take lives..and is already decimating the game herds we, as hunters, have worked over 90 years to bring back to abundance. You get that! You pricks couldn’t care less, for the deer and elk, all you want is to get rid of them, so you will have no more hunters around. You and your kind are right out of a Disney movie, which is about all you have, in understanding game and the environment….You don’t know, because you’ve never lived there…..Well, HAVE YOU?
Graves consulted with Russian biologists and Canadian Biologists, along with a few American biologists. Last time I checked that was considered a credible activity for a writer to do before releasing his data in a book.. The book gets the approval of Val Geist, Canada’s version of David Mech, except Geist is honest, Mech is not.
A “soviet” is a system of interconnected councils that work to destroy individual personality, suppress individual potential, and centralize power into the hands of those who seek to control human action and human production, the environmentalist agenda fits the bill 100%, in fact Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, and others used these so called green models to chastise and or punish, even kill people. People know that a soviet system of government is a dismal failure. A failure so bad, in fact, that it’s inconceivable to consider that soviet-style “change agents” might actually be Americans living and working in our own neighborhoods. Even worse, would be to discover that your smiling political leaders might also be “agents of change.” All of the environmental so called groups fit the bill 100%. The ESA is being used to destroy Farming, ranching, hunting.. and the means justifies the ends. This means even if they must wipe out ungulates in the process that is ok. They’ll do it. They are doing it. The ESA has become a most effective tool in the hands of the preservationists and those intent on destroying the livelihoods of millions of Americans. The individual councils in this case are WWP, DOW, HSUS, The Sierra Club, Yellowstone Country Gardians, Earth Justice, <(LMAO). WildEarth Guardians, <hahaha<, Idaho Conservation League <hahaha<…..etc.etc..These Nonprofit, tax exempt groups are making billions of dollars in funding; the majority of that funding is not going into programs to protect people, wildlife, plants, and animals, but to fund more law suit,their slopping it up at the tax payer trough of good fortune for them, and they know it.. Most of them are ex government people used to living on free handouts, their non productive liars..
Well… I gave the other site a shot since that’s what Lee suggested I do and I do like to keep an open mind. Before being a regular here, I probably could have been lumped in with the people who are on that other site. Yeah, I’m not sure I like the comment about it being den season Greg… but that’s just me. I don’t live in the environment, I do not have to deal with this on a day to day basis. It’s enough for me to know that the people here want control, not extermination. Control makes sense. I was polite but apparently my analogy of a drive by and the wolf killing was simply ‘moronic’ for some. They missed the point all together. Though I don’t always agree with what is said here, people here are a bit more polite, they try to answer any and all of my questions and I don’t feel like an idiot. Perhaps I am too thin skinned but I believe in giving respect back when it’s been handed to you first.
Denning is a sure fire way of keeping abreast of numbers of wolfs. Suppose you are adapt enough to know where the dens are; you also know how many have or have not been found. Denning would come into play, should the conventional methods of open hunt fail.
Harley, death is death. Shooting them, poisoning them, denning tactics, or let em eat all the ungulates up, then they turn on one another, eat one another, and a lot of them starve to death. The evolutionists are calling for the up swings and down swings wild animals will go through if the interfering man is taken out of the picture. No management, no hunting.. Both ways are are brutal. Putting meat on the table is brutal… That’s just how it is. Do you like it rare, or well done ? These people lied Harley, They wanted 10 breeding pairs and 100 wolves.. Now 15 years later, we have crashing elk herds crashing wolves, and a resource built up by man for the last 90 years being ruined, by a group of charlatans, most of which spit on those of us respecting CREATION..
If controlling numbers of predators is necessary, eliminating a den full of pups is not barbaric it could be required. It is more humane to kill the litter than to have them starve to death however I am quite confident that a few pups starving is not going to eliminate the whole crop. We will return to this point of discussion time an time again.
Harley I am surprised Ralph did not ask you to leave.. My experience over there was to play stupid in the hopes of building up to leaving real informed replies.. Only to be blocked while they bad mouthed me, and of course I could not defend my position.. Barb LEE Rupers and JEFF E were very instrumental in my being removed.. But Ralph is a gate keeper.. It’s there way or the high way.. God Forbid those people ever have us at their mercy..
What the pro wolfies are really about is anti hunting they couldn’t care less about the wolf or any predator. They’re true passion is stopping all hunting and using the wolf is just an excuse.The majority of them have probably never even seen a coyote let alone a wolf.
I don’t think I’ve been banned. They certainly haven’t answered many of my questions though. I notice that the LA Times is discredited becaues they reported residents talking about wolves that have been hanging out around the town and people are driving kids to school now and not going out at recess. I guess it’s ‘poor’ reporting when the reporting goes against what they think. I know that some journalists aren’t always spot on with things but you would think a bunch of people like that would back the press…. well of course until it goes agaisnt their beliefs. Then the press is not doing it’s job. Interesting.
Greg said
“Harley I am surprised Ralph did not ask you to leave.” Why should RM have done so? Harley has not bad mouthed anyone nor ranted on for ever about communism, the agenda, – - – -
“My experience over there was to play stupid in the hopes of building up to leaving real informed replies” You don’t have to play stupid!
Lee,
You sure seem to have a difficulty with debunking the stupid truth.
Greg
You certainly can’t seem to be honest.
Harley
I thought that the people at RM site tried to answer your questions, were never insulting nor used derogatory language. There may have been some respondents with whom you had a difference of opinion but that is what this is all about.
Lee,
You’re incapable of even being honest with yourself.
Greg Farber on March 13th, 2010 1:46 pm ” we cannot fault them for doing what wild carnivores do. ” NO SHIT. That is why we control them.
I suggest muzzles insted of collars for all wolves living outside of wilderness areas. That should solve any preceived problem.
Preconceived notions and assumptions are your modus operandi..
What is taking place in the world is obvious to anyone with their eyes open. Furthermore, everything that comes our way is promised, demanded, openly signaled, brazenly out in the open. The mystery is why humanity, especially so called Americans remain so careless of these developments.. You green freaks have been denatured, dehumanized. Darwinized !
Did you ever study on Darwins inbreeding ? They were proven to be into incest, check out his family tree sometime.. Perhaps that is what is wrong with you, what do you think about a brother boinking his sister ??
Darwins lies called science, oh what a prize..
Greg
You have nothing credible to offer on real issues.
Would that be no credibility concerning the several historical facts and data, including political sciences in which you have admitted not reading due to your lacking in and interest in the direction globalism is taking humanity ?
Or are you referring to my exposes into Darwinism, the theory of the survival of the fittest and its twin sister, the theory of human evolution, together with the official version of the Paleontology and Archaeology such as they are practiced, are pseudo-sciences, and any environmentalist studies based on those pseudo-sciences are just as worthless ? Wolf Studies to be specific.
{ Charles Darwin was well into eugenics and bloodline breeding. The Darwins and Wedgwoods intermarried for several generations. That’s the top Freemason way ( the Rothschilds even married their sisters). Thus, Charles Darwin chose to marry his cousin, Emma Wedgwood. }
You really are a sore loser Lee…. And when you cross over you are really going to be pissed then..
Greg, thanks for all the (in)credible information you offer on real issues. It has exposed untruth.
Ok some of you probably saw this already but this was my first time and I found this rather amusing.
A group of Alabama friends went deer hunting and paired off in twos for the day. That night, one of the hunters returned alone, staggering under the weight of an eight-point buck.”Where’s Henry?” the others asked.
“Henry had a stroke of some kind. He’s a couple of miles back up the trail,” the successful hunter replied.
“You left Henry laying out there and carried the deer back?” they inquired.
“A tough call,” nodded the hunter. “But I figured no one is going to steal Henry!”
Harley,
I worked in Alabama once years ago and that’s probably not to far from the truth.
Harley, we do that all the time down here in cracker Florida… (last time I was the one that got left behind)…
It is ok to laugh at oneself!! Hunters do it well.
Did I chase the scalawags off? Or did the constant bickering? Twinxt you know who’s……
Come back excrement award winners….I need to give you the Ralph roughshod award for Wolfie protectionist isms……
Henry would have wanted it that way. George died, playing golf. Chet’s wife was furious it was after dark when he got home. Chet told her George died and she was so sorry; it must have been awful…
It’s was, replied chet. Hit the ball, drag George. Hit the ball, drag George…
Holy smokes, you guys are killin’ me. Nice one ar! Love it! And Jes, I believe you did in fact scare them off, both you and Greg.
Lee, done all the talking I’m going to do, thanks for your concern though. I’m still pretty sure I stand somewhere in the middle of you and the rest of the people here and that’s where I’ll stay. I’ve heard your side, I grew up on your side. Now I’m learning something different. Greg… for all his different ways of looking at things, has been pretty spot on about a lot of things…
Two Montana buddies planned all summer for the big hunt. When season finally rolled around they both were extatic to get to thier favorite drainage and search for big game. They decided to separate and hunt both sides of the canyon. Soon after daylight one of the friends shot at what he was sure to be a great trophy, but as he approached what he thought to be a great buck turned out to be his own life long friend.His anguish was fierce and he apologized emphatically to his wounded buddy vowing to get him out and to a doctor as soon as possible. After what seemed to be an eternity of preparation and travel the two friends arrived at the hospital and doctors worked for hours triing to save the wounded hunter. As he was waiting the chief surgeon entered the room shaking his head in disbelief that he could not save the hunters friend. The friend with tears of sorrow and grief in his heart looked at the doctor and asked “doc was there anything that I could have done to have helped to save my friend while we were in the woods”? The doctor replied Yes, it might have helped if you wouldnt have gutted him out!
Bad Bad Bad Bad and BAD….hahahahahhandha I’d love to NOT have those guys hunting around me
from the referenced article at:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9ECQMI80&show_article=1
The autopsy could not say which animals, said Col. Audie Holloway, head of the Alaska State Troopers, but wolves are the chief suspect.
“There’s no other carnivores in that area that are out and active,” he said.
Except village dogs!
Well, they killed two of the wolves today. Maybe they will be able to match DNA to saliva from the killer left on the body. we can only hope.
Tonight’s TV (KTUU.com) news showed a dog loose in the village chasing a pickup truck. They apparently removed that scene from a later program…
You know, JTM, it because of jerkheads like you that we haven’t had anything in the way of documented cases of wolves killing people….You jerkheads could compromise a jury of 12 and examine evidence that would convict the most dedicated serial killer, and still the son of a bitch walk…. And to think it only takes one of you to bust a jury, and let a murderer free! I can only hope there is a special place in hell for those humans who have betrayed their own specie…
And I’m gonna say the same thing I said on the other page. IF it was village dogs, IF, then they need to be taken care of too.
If there were dogs out where she was attacked the wolves would have killed them as well.
Can you imagine a hundred years ago a rancher goes out to check his cattle and finds a calf torn apart and wolf tracks all around in the snow and goes back to his house and tells the wife we better wait for the game department to come out and look at this and see if they think it might have been wolves.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. IT’S A DUCK
There must be quite a recorded bit of history then around this village of domestic dogs biting and attacking people in the village. Dog packs gone wild will not live in the wilds either, not where there are wolves, the wolves will kill the dogs, the wolves will not tolerate the competition. We know there is and abundance of wolves in the area due to the daily hunt allowance of ten wolves per hunter.
CHEERS !
Just read most of this collection of stuff. You folks have about zero knowlege of what is rural and what is Wilderness in Alaska. Go to ADN.com and look at the pictures of the village and surrounding area. The population is ~105. There are a few houses and other buildings surrounded by thousands of square miles of empty true wilderness. To the North Port Heiden is 43 miles away, to the South Perryville (133 pop) is 25 miles. To the west there is nothing. To the east are two villages of combined population 130. There are NO connecting roads. This is “rural Alaska.”
From:
http://www.commerce.state.ak.us/dca/commdb/CF_BLOCK.cfm
“Treated well water is stored in a wood stave tank and is piped to all 32 households. The school has its own well. Approximately 70% of the homes are plumbed. 15 HUD homes are connected to a central sewer system with a waste pump and lagoon; the remainder use individual septic systems. Refuse is disposed of by residents in the new landfill. Chignik Lake Electric Utility generates power only during the summer months; in winter, electricity is purchased from the School District.
“Chignik Lake is primarily accessible by air. There is a state-owned 2,800′ long by 60′ wide gravel airstrip; seaplanes may land at Chignik Lagoon. Regularly-scheduled and charter flights are provided. Goods are lightered to the Lake via Chignik Lagoon, weekly during the summer and monthly during winter, and transported over land. The state ferry provides service to Chignik Lagoon four times per year. There is no harbor, dock, barge access or boat haul-outs. Skiffs and ATVs are the primary means of local transportation. There is a strong regional interest in constructing roads between Chignik, Chignik Lagoon, Chignik Lake and the City landfill.”
The caribou and moose populations on that part of the Alaska peninsula are at relative lows. The wolf population may be also low, but it appears several – a small pack of about four – have been frequenting the vicinity of the village for some time. From the reports one might reasonably guess they are hungry and getting bold as they have not had any adverse reaction from the humans there. Whether they have been taking dogs from the village has not been reported in the local (at Anchorage: close to 500 miles away) press. In fact, the reporters have either failed to gather pertinent information or are witholding it.
Greg Farber, I composed a reply with references to information on the way wolves and prey populations are managed in Alaska. I didn’t save a copy and the board flagged it as spam. If the admin allows it to be posted – it will be. if not, the info is “lost.”
The upshot is, your last premise is generally false. It may have happened – rarely – but I have never heard of a hunter bagging ten wolves in a day. I have hunted extensively for long periods of time in areas where that is the regulation without so much as seeing a wolf or wolf sign! Since aerial hunting was banned the only way to take ten wolves a day would be to hunt from snowmachine and be VERY lucky. I’ve been here for 42 years and have never had a shot at a wolf. They are not easy to hunt.
Anytime a comment is posted that contains more than ONE link, will get caught up in my SPAM box and waits for my approval.
The state police and coroner have put the death of this young lady onto wolves, until they change this opinion themselves officially, or a court eventually decides based on solid evidence to the contrary it is in fact wolves. I know government people lie. I don’t see any point in inventing this was a wolf or wolves kill. We are well aware of how hard it is to get a shot on a wolf. Try some bait. Try some propane. Set traps. In Idaho I have enjoyed many sightings of wolves in three decades, the most have been recent, with the wolves being actually in the front yard passing through. Walking into my camps and looking directly at me and my horses and mules.. I have cross haired 23 wolves in the last five years, of course I only whispered gotcha and walked on. Hunt harder.
Sounds like a great place to live. To bad one resident won’t be around to continue enjoying it..
JTM, your diatribe rambles more than draws any conclusions with merit. You act as if you and your speculation is more valid than the people who are investigating the killing….
I fail to see the point of discussing how far in the outback the village is…what is the point of that? That has never been drawn into the question except by you.
Your conclusions of it being wild dogs, or “village dogs” is just about what the “wolfie” people want to draw attention to, and I doubt that is going to wash….and neither will your conclusions. Dogs may usually be the natural suspect, but there are many more details that don’t jive with that belief. For instance as the coroner concludes:
“She was bleeding as she was being moved, being drug, and the damage was to the throat,” Holloway said. “The medical examiner concluded that she wasn’t killed by any other method and that the damage to the throat was severe. There were animal bite marks on the throat.
“Wolves, just like big cats, usually attack the wind pipe area and try to control the victim that way.”
Read more: http://www.adn.com/2010/03/11/1179368/teacher-likely-killed-by-wolves.html#ixzz0iO9qjLjG
Now if you want to wait until there is some DNA analysis, that is your business, but if I lived in this area, I know enough about wolves to know what to do….
The fact is, JTM, you sound more like another Walt Disney wolf expert who knows nothing of hunting or the woods or wolves in actuality…..as you yourself state. That leave you in the lurch along with all the rest as far as I’m concerned…..
The following was taken from adn.com….
” There is an “extremely high” density of brown bears in the Chignik Lake area, but it is somewhat early for bears to be out, said retired Fish and Game biologist Mark McNay, who has studied wolf attacks in North America.
It is prime mating season for wolves — a time when a lot of individual wolves could be out looking for mates and when young wolves recently separated from their packs could be wandering, he said.
“Those types of animals may be more likely to attack because they’re naive, they haven’t ever associated with people,” McNay said. “There have been some cases where those types of wolves have chased and bitten people.”
Wolf attacks on domestic animals in Alaska are not uncommon. A pack of wolves, at least some of them rabid, killed about a half-dozen sled dogs in Marshall in October 2007. Beginning a month later, Anchorage saw a series of wolf encounters that left three dogs dead and several others wounded. Wildlife officials at the time speculated the pack, led by a hungry leader, was targeting easy meals.
But violent encounters with people are more rare.
Last September, a rabid wolf attacked a hunter along the Kuskokwim River near Kalskag, biting the man in his leg before being shot to death. The hunter lived.
In April 2000, a radio-collared wolf repeatedly bit a 6-year-old boy playing in a grove of alders at a logging camp northwest of Yakutat. The boy was not seriously injured.
Then in July 2006, a wolf attacked a schoolteacher walking off the Dalton Highway, along the Arctic Circle. The woman suffered cuts and gashes to her legs but survived.
McNay, who now lives in Kansas, is the author of a 2002 study published by the Alaska Department of Fish and Game that examined 80 wolf-human encounters in North America, nearly half of which involved elements of aggression among healthy wolves.
The cases in which wolves are most aggressive are the cases involving wolves that have become habituated to people, he said.
“There’s only been one other case of a fatal wolf attack by a healthy, wild wolf in North America, and that happened in 2005 in northern Saskatchewan,” McNay said. “It is extremely rare. There have been other cases, of course, of wolves behaving aggressively toward people.
“The frequency of these cases seems to have increased in the past decade or so.” ”
All I’ve heard or seen is how this is such a rare thing, a ‘possible’ wolf killing of a human but look at the growing statistic of agressive behavior! Ok… not too many have died but there have been what, 80 cases of agression? 80 that have been reported anyway…And that’s just against humans. I don’t think the agression against the dogs and other animals is cited in this. I dunno, that would kinda concern me if I lived in those areas. Of particular interest is that last line in the article about the increase in the past decade.
Lee? Any comments on this?
It’s interesting, this adn.com. I suppose some would say the reporters are being… how was it put? Irresponsible? But see, this was probably done by locals, not someone in LA. Looks like they took the time to interview and get their story straight. There are quite a few good stories linked to this incident. It says caribou numbers are down, wolf numbers are up. Not enough food equals hungry wolves, that’s the conclusion I’d make.
I imagine you read some Denali news, too, Harley. The land masses are large here, yet you can not let the dog loose and expect it to stay – for tourist pennies or any other reason.
Harley, you might keep in mind both the fact that record keeping for the last 200 years has been pretty skimpy until the last 50-60 years, and during this time the wolf has been on the “extermination list”….with both bounties, and paid inducements for the trappers who were the most effective at getting rid of them. A lot of old newspapers are missing, and the fact is, is that an attack may have taken place that never turned up even in them… The Russian stories of wolf attacks and killings have more records, simply because there were so many, and so many unarmed people….
When people lay blame on wild dogs and “other” animals, wanting to protect the wolf, they are contributing to the reason this young lady was killed. They are covering the truth with lies that make the wolf into something he is not: “a peaceful, gentle animal, that does not harm humans.” To be forewarned is to be armed and ready. That goes for wolves and the liars that make you think they are harmless….
I’ll share something with you guys. This story hits close to home. I’m a special education teacher myself. I’ve been teaching for 20 years now. This is my first year of not teaching but I’m still in the educational scene. Illinois is not a friendly place to be for teachers or education but that’s for another blog and another time. Way back when I first started out, I often had romantic notions of going out to places like Alaska, how cool would that have been! Who knows, with all of my romantic, yeah I’ll admit, Disney like thoughts of things, maybe that could have been me. I don’t know. All I do know is that someone who had the compassion and fortitude to follow through on a dream isn’t with us anymore. It’s just sad and it hits close to the heart for me.
T.R. Mader
http://www.aws.vcn.com/wolf_attacks_on_humans.html
———————————-
The 1960-1 Marc Leblond case
Winnipeg Free Press
By: Gerald McNebl
November 18, 1963
QUEBEC (CP) — Game experts are generally sceptical about stories of wolves, attacking humans, but there is strong evidence to. support belief that five-year-old Marc Leblond was killed by one Sept. 24 north of Baie-Comeau, Que. An autopsy showed he was killed by a savage animal and authorities at Baie-Comeau, 225 miles northeast of here, are convinced it was a wolf. If so, it would be the first authenticated case in Canada of a wolf killing a human. Even reports of wolves attacking humans. are rare. Dr. Louis Lemieux, director of Quebec’s fish and wildlife management service, can recall only one—that of a man who reported fighting off a wolf in Northern Ontario several years ago. Of the death of Marc Leblond, he says “it could happen” that a wolf killed him, but if so it would be as unusual as the case at Sept-Hes, Que., last year in which an airman was savagely attacked by an owl.
Shoot On Sight
Police and hunters at Baie-Comeau are shooting wolves on sight, though few have been seen near inhabited areas. The Leblonds, from Godbout, Que., had-rented a summer cottage for a week at an isolated lake north of Baie-Comeau. It was about 25 miles from the Manicouagan hydro-electric development where Mr. Leblond worked. He commuted each day on an access road. Workers have often seen wolves near the road. Frank Auger, Quebec-Hydro police chief at Bale -Comeau, says Marc and his three-yearold brother had been outside playing for a few minutes Sept. 24 when their parents heard a commotion. The y o u n g e r boy rushed screaming into the house. The parents unable to find Marc, thought he had drowned and called police. A search of the lake revealed nothing, but two policemen and foreman Leon Verrault of Quebec-Hydro found the torn body in the forest after a brief search.
Tracks Near Body
They also saw a wolf lurking 50 yards off. Unarmed, they were unable to shoot it but Verrault, an experienced hunter, described it as “a grey timber wolf weighing about 80 pounds.” Tracks of two wolves surrounded the body. Later that day an armed group scoured the area, shot at a wolf but missed. Examination by Dr. Jacques Beaumont, the district coroner, convinced Auger the boy was killed by a wolf. Wolves follow the same pattern in killing deer. Auger says there are no wild dogs, in the area and there were no signs of other animals near the body. He says Manicouagan workers workers have r e p o r t e d being watched by wolves – “They threw stones at them but the wolves didn’t go away” – along the access road. There had never been a report of an attack however.
Bounties Halted
“We’ve seen all kinds of them in this, district but this is the first time in 20 years of police work I’ve had a case like this,” Auger said. Yet he is convinced the Leblond boy was killed by a wolf and he has ordered his men to kill them on sight. Quebec quit giving bounties for wolves in 1961 and now sends professional trappers into areas where they are killing cattle or s h e e p . A trapper hasn’t been sent to Baie-Comeau. There evidently are thousands of wolves – the largest on record 136 pound – north of the St. Lawrence but Dr. Lemieux says they are rarely seen even by hunters.
Consider that trip north. Natives are friendly, fishing is good – bring a compass.
Turns out to be another large dog, even back then. I was going to mention to harley how growing up we shot them and with a bounty, if i am not mistaken. It’s incentive to always be looking while in the woods and also to be in the woods; should profit find you, well, then, there you are but being in the woods is important.
Just a couple years back i got caught up on what was going on around the country and outside the country, with the wolfs and thot, what’s wrong; that people are doing that? They should know better than to let wolfs run free.
They were never gone, they stayed away from our territory, tho. They went and got their own territory. So, when they are always hunted, trapped, their numbers stay (more)contollable and the game is not deseased.
“The state police and coroner have put the death of this young lady onto wolves, until they change this opinion themselves officially, or a court eventually decides based on solid evidence to the contrary it is in fact wolves. ”
Now that is science, case closed, according to Greg. It is a fact.
Harley
I have the publication from Alaska written by Mark McNay.regarding wolf “encounters” in NA. I suggest that you get a copy from the Alaska DFG.
Candice went to Alaska to satisfy her desires. In my opinion it is better to die doing what you want than to not engage in those activities. I feel empathy for her family; they don’t blame the wolf.
Sounds like you are wearing your light-gloves for this round, lee.
Looks like the admin didn’t like anything I wrote including all the good info on how game, including wolves, is managed up here, where to find the regs etc. etc.
Ya’ll have fun.
Lee wears her gloves, but not her thinking cap….I think she sat on it the last time out.
Maybe she needs to invite all those poor, unscientifically, arrested serial killers that the state police arrested, who can’t really change their nature, into her home for tea and “crunches”…
Oh, I forgot, HER home is different…..(it’s THOSE people who need to do what she tells them)
Harley, since you are into special education yourself, have you seen this woman’s blog about her living in Alaska? Here’s the link:
http://cberner.blogspot.com/
She was much more aware of the dangers than you might think. But being aware does not always assure you of staying alive when you are being stalked by an animal with the capability of a killer wolf.
Oh wow… Jes, thank you for the link. All I’ve had a chance to do is look at the pictures as I am off to work in about 10 mins but the pictures are breathtaking! Can’t wait to dive into what she wrote about. Wow..Very very cool.
Coroner is a scientist dummy..
Greg, thanks for the link on wolf attacks on humans….I also enjoyed the article on WOLVES AND HUNTING
http://www.aws.vcn.com/wolves_and_hunting.html
“For years, hunters have been fed the line, “Wolves kill only the weak, sick and old.” Worse yet, hunters have believed it. ”
That’s not all the crap the public has been fed, but it’s one damn good example.
Excellent point, Greg…..but anti-wolf science is not what they want to accept.
The coroner is a public figure, but this public official has innumerable scientific experts to call upon to help them render a decision, and are board-certified pathologists. Of course like ALL Scientists they can be found to be fallible, including lying cheating wolf biologists working for a government at state and federal levels seeking to replace hunters with wolves, and eventually outlaw gun ownership.. This BS with mental midget Lee, has turned into my Ph.Ds are better than your Ph.Ds.. The University is never wrong. All of these bought and paid for scientists don’t have any agenda at all… HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA …
Jes, the blog is really interesting. It is almost a stronger reaction to this woman as I get to actually know her. Wow. Wish I could have met her. You are right, she seemed to be well aware of the dangers and she also seemed to be familiar with the area that she was in where she died.
Lee, could not find an exact report but I did find a lot on Mark Mckay and it seems to me that he supports the fact that wolves should be considered dangerous and he still documents the 80 cases so…. I’m not sure what it is you want me to learn more of by directing me to this specific report?
As a matter of fact, I’ve read a lot about this and there are of course conflicting views as to how ‘safe’ it is to be around wolves. You get 10 experts in a room and you will have 10 different opinions I suppose…
In my opinion science is based on theory not fact which means some scientist can say I believe it should be this way and because he is a scientist it must be true. The fact is history is the best teacher. If it happened before there is a good chance it will happen again. I’ll take my chances on history over theory everytime.
Wolves have killed people in the past and they will do it again.
Communists hate history, except of course the history they have doctored up..
JTM -
It would appear from her blogs, that it would be highly unlikely that this woman was killed by village dogs. They ran with her and acted as bear guards, something most if not all village dogs were trained to be. She bonded with them by feeding them milk bones.
Her blogs are really facinating and it’s awakening that old desire to pick up the tent stakes and find something new…
If I was a young man again with no family responsibility, I would easily have been there myself…Just remember, Harley, learn how to shoot and pack a lightweight, compact pistol or revolver and get a permit to carry concealed, even jogging….good insurance against even the two-legged wolves…..or four legged.
Evidently some posters here got their IPs caught up in the SPAM filter. Let me explain something.
1. I don’t censor comments unless they are extremely inappropriate.
2. You cannot add a comment that contains more than 1 link in it unless the SPAM software has scored you high enough that are are “trusted” with more. Than takes time.
3. If you want to help make sure you don’t get “blacklisted”, register as a user to this blog and use a legitimate email address. SPAM filters generally focus on IP addresses. Once your IP is blacklisted, it takes quite a bit of time and effort to retrieve it.
4. Should your comment not appear with the rest of them, DO NOT send me nasty insinuating emails, or I might just ignore them. For those who are smart enough to figure it out, I don’t sit at my computer 24/7 checking my SPAM filter to see if someone has commented.
5. As a reminder for first time commenters, I must approve the first comment and after that, if you behave yourself (meaning you don’t piss off the SPAM software) you should be all set. But as I said, it helps if you register. This gets your information into the SPAM blocker.
Having said all this, I have attempted to recover as many comments as I could find in the SPAM folder. Also, for whatever the reasons, JTM’s IP got blacklisted. I hope I have been successful in fixing that, however, I do not believe all of his comments were recovered, or at least are not showing up yet.
This SPAM software is pretty darn good but it’s not perfect and the alternative of not using any OR not allowing comments is not what I’m interested in.
I repeat. If you lose a comment, contact me for help and there’s no need to be rude about it whether those comments are made here and/or in my inbox.
Thank you.
Harley, I expect he’s afraid to come back and “face the music”, now that the details and the truth of this is becoming more confirmed and evident….
Jim, not only was it true from a historical standpoint, but it was true from a moral standpoint, as well..Unfortunately, the present generation either lacks the morals or the understanding, and is doomed to repeat the same lessons of history.
I wonder if the present generation, believes we were so dumb as to exterminate the wolf for no good reason or just so immoral….as if immorality hinges on the animalistic nature of modern values.
In either case, they will soon learn why the wolf was killed as they become more habituated to human presence, That is if they ever, ever venture into the parks, or wilderness areas, or even, eventually, their own back yards…..
Jes, what you just said is very true. Reality is sometimes a hard lesson learned but until they are willing to except reality they will not be willing to except the truth.
On Tom’s suggestion I changed my name and ISP for this comment.
Jes, I’m not afraid of coming back.
I’d be happy and entirely unafraid to post the comments which seem to have been “lost,” but failed to save copies myself before hitting “Submit Comment.” I’ve had to contend with the likes of you before and will, undoubtedly have to again in the future.
I’m emailing the ADF&G vet in Fairbanks, whom I know from prior communications to try and get a copy of the necropsy report on the two wolves killed there at Chignik Lake when it is finished. If she can and does send one, if she OKs it, I will post it here.
Harley Go google or to the Alaska Department of Fish & Game website at:
http://www.adfg.state.ak.us/
There is a search panel for the site at the upper right. search for this exact term ‘techb13_full’ and you’ll be able to locat and download the Mark McNay publication.
The latest news as of just after noon here:
State suspends hunt for wolves that killed village teacher
Anchorage Daily News / adn.com
Published: March 17th, 2010 12:47 PM
Last Modified: March 17th, 2010 12:48 PM
The state is calling off its search for more Chignik Lake-area wolves that might have been involved in last week’s attack that killed a teacher.
Alaska Department of Fish and Game staff killed two wolves on Monday about five miles west of Chignik Lake.
Fish and Game biologist Lem Butler said today he believes it’s “highly likely that these wolves killed Candice Berner,” the 32-year-old special-education teacher who had been based in Perryville.
“After conducting a two-day search for other wolf signs and finding none, I also conclude that there is a low likelihood of finding additional wolves in the near future if the search is continued,” Butler said.
The department said its staff “will remain in close contact with local residents to monitor wolf sightings and activities in the Chignik Lake area, and may conduct a second search of the area in early April if further action is warranted.”
Butler concluded the wolves killed Monday were involved in Berner’s death because witnesses said there were two sets of wolf tracks on the road where Berner had been jogging when the attack occurred, and because the two wolves seen that evening matched the descriptions of the wolves killed this week.
Greg, after quite a number of hours in the air, in what appears from photos to be pretty good country for spotting wolves, only two have been found. There do not appear to be large numbers in that area.
The area in question, GMU 9, where the Board of Game has set a 9 month season with a ten a day limit to increase hunting mortality on wolves and, hopefully, decrease wolf caused mortality of caribou, comprises an area of nearly 34,000 square miles nearly 40% of the state of Idaho – there are almost no roads in the area. Long seasons and large bag limits do not equate to large aboundance up here.
We have a year long, no bag limit season on pheasants, Huns, chukar, quail, etc and ferrets and swine. Don’t come up thinking there are lots of these critters to hunt – there are next to none and the Regs. are designed to keep it that way.
Do you live in that area JMurray? Sounds like it. I was just calling to your attention since in one of your posts you had said something about the village dogs. In Ms. Berner’s blog she often spoke about the dogs that would accompany her on her runs for the reward of a rare cherished milk bone. Also, the dogs there it sounded like were trained to help protect against bear attacks. I don’t have any knowledge at all first hand on any of that, I have no idea if a dog would distinguish between a bear or a wolf it it was trained to protect? Anyway, I’m curious to know if the dogs were with her when she was on this particular run. I will follow up the link but I’m still not sure what it is I’m to learn from further readings of this individual since he seems to support that it is obvious that a. wolves should not be underestimated in their threat to humans and b. there has been a rise in aggressive behaviors from wolves over the past decade or so. I dunno, common sense tells me if their natural food supply is running low, for whatever reason, be it disease, ticks, too much hunting, too many wolves, global warming…. it would seem to make sense to me that wolves will try to find the next meal elsewhere. That would seem to increase the danger levels. Again, maybe I’m looking at this all wrong. But when this sort of situation arises, instead of people pointing fingers at why the food source is running out or who’s to blame, some kind of plan or action should be in place to insure that wolves don’t starve and as a result, increase the risk to the human population. In the past, with very little human population, sure they may have been able to correct any inbalances on their own but the fact remains that there are now more humans than ever. So if a natural food source grows scarce, what can be done to insure that wolves don’t go looking for a meal elsewhere? That’s my HUGE question of the day.
JMurray, you have me at a advantage, since I do not remember you. Perhaps you have posted here before under another name? Or have I just forgotten you? Either way, maybe you could explain what the significance of them calling off the search, means to you since it appears to me they are long gone, in back country, after what looks like more snow and wind has covered all traces…
Perhaps the conflicting statements: “Fish and Game biologist Lem Butler said today he believes it’s “highly likely that these wolves killed Candice Berner,”
And: ““There’s no other carnivores in that area that are out and active,” he said.
Except village dogs! (which you interjected) is where I assumed you were throwing the typical monkey wrench into the situation…If I’m wrong maybe you could enlighten me…If I jumped the gun on you and you are actually looking for an answer, then that’s another story, and I misinterpreted you. Cause so far, you have not continued along the typical lines of the “wolf protectionist league” or the like..
It will be interesting if they find the DNA of Candice Berner still with either of these wolves after all this time…chances are not very good. They could do a very through postmortem, but that may be neglected due to the cost and/or capability of the forensic expert. The most they can expect is comparison DNA, which would only put them at the scene….
I am afraid this is all going to get shuffled out of the way, and not only will the wolf protectors have a field day, but her death will be no consequence to those who may have need of being aware of the danger, before they, too, become another statistic in the forgotten annals of wolf kill cover-ups.
The DNA results will not matter to those who don’t want wolves to be the culprits. If the DNA shows the wolves chewed on the woman, because the autopsy showed death was caused by the attack, they will simply state that village dogs killed her and the wolves showed up, chased the dogs away and had their way with the woman.
And of course wolves overwhelming fear of man probably scared the wolves away as soon as they heard someone coming.
Pretty much the reason why there are so many “undocumented” cases of wolves killing people….If you read the number of reasons that must qualify them as “documented”, then you can understand why there are so few…Just who sets these criteria, anyway?
The way I understood the scene of the attack was there was snow on the ground at the time. If there was any chance of it being town dogs more likely than not you could have tracked them right back to town. The only tracks they spoke of was a couple sets of wolf tracks or did I miss something.
Greg’s link defines the actual definition of being a “documented” attack”
Dr. David Mech, USFWS wolf biologist, states there are no “documented” cases of rabid wolves below the fifty seventh latitude north (near Whitehorse, Yukon Territory). When asked what “documented” meant, he stated, “The head of the wolf must be removed, sent to a lab for testing and found to be rabid.”
Those requirements for documentation negate all historical records!
As with rabid wolves, the biologist can say, “There are no `documented’ cases of wild healthy wolves attacking humans.” In order to be “documented” these unreasonable criteria must be met:
1. The wolf has to be killed, examined and found to be healthy.
2. It must be proven that the wolf was never kept in captivity in its entire life.
3. There must be eyewitnesses to the attack.
4. The person must die from their wounds (bites are generally not considered attacks according to the biologists).
That is a “documented” attack.
Such criteria make it very difficult to document any historical account of a wolf attack on a human!
http://www.aws.vcn.com/wolf_attacks_on_humans.html
So Saturday at the wolf meeting if I punch a wolf hugger in the nose for insulting me to my face, that is not and attack unless I am killed and my head is removed and I have rabies…. ha ha..
Greg, you already had your head removed….according to Lee….
jes on March 17th, 2010 7:23 pm
JMurray, you have me at a advantage.
JMurray on March 17th, 2010 5:52 pm:
“On Tom’s suggestion I changed my name and ISP for this comment.”:
Jes, I’m not afraid of coming back.
Lee,
JMurray on March 17th, 2010 5:52 pm :
“I’ve had to contend with the likes of you before and will, undoubtedly have to again in the future.”
This implies that he has been on this site before…presumably before this post…
I am quite aware of his change in ID, thank you.
Lee, I noticed that you’re not commenting much on this case. Are you OK? Or are you afraid of what a case like this signifies? Where are your “wolfie” friends now that the picture is showing the wolf in another light? Trying to hush it all up?
Lee
That was kinda odd that you reposted what JMurray posted…I was kinda hoping you’d answer my question. You have not been very forthcoming with information and links and reasons and such. I’m still wondering what you and JMurray are wanting me to learn by directing me to the reports…
JMurray, I found that report by searching the man through google and I repeat, he supports the excalating aggression from wolves to humans…
I’m really confused here. Can maybe someone else read the damn thing and tell me just what I’m missing since Lee won’t?
Lee’s kinda odd……Makes me wonder if JMurray isn’t actually Lee, she has changed her name a number of times, already. Is that you, Lee?????
Jes – JMurray is JTM from before. His comments got caught up in my SPAM software and ended up in a mess. I’ll spare the details. I suggested that he should try registering and/or changing his user name or even an IP address.
Lee is the only name I have used on this site.
Harley, I am not commenting much or giving out links because I have been spending most of my time at the hospital for the last 9 days. My husband has complications following a surgery. A am headed there now.
Thoughts and prayers, Lee!
Yes Lee, thoughts and many prayers. Hang in there, not an easy thing to go through.
We’re with you. Lee.
Hope all goes well. Lee.
Lee, glad to know you’re OK, and take care of your spouse…Keep those doctors on their toes!
Best wishes hope all is well in your time of need, Lee
And this is why I really do like coming here. It doesn’t matter what the differences are. Everyone is thinking good wishes to you Lee.
He’ll be fine, any man what has the endurance and mental fortitude to tolerate the mule headed mentality of this woman ain’t a gonna get took out by no medical quackery unit practicing on his health issues..
Just the same though I hope all is well..
Thanks to all for the consideration and thoughts. It is much appreciated.
The State epidemiologists report came out today. The two wolves killed at Chignik Lake were not rabid (ie they did not have the disease commonly called Rabies).
I’m pretty swamped right now – snow slide off the roof and took chimney and roof jack. It was snowing and raining, but that needed to be repaired.
I’ll be back to answer any question which have been directed at me, maybe comment on some other stuff; later.
For now, and off the topic this comment by Jim Richards caught my eye as I scanned the new stuff: “In my opinion science is based on theory not fact …”
I’m sorry Jim, but that comment shows the deepest level of ignorance about science I’ve ever encountered in more than seventy years on this planet!
Science is great when used correctly, if we can find lies or mistakes in high school and University books concerning science then we obviously have problems with theory’s being mixed with facts.. Kent Hovind, John Taylor Gatto, Chuck Missler, and James McCanney have proven this problem with education exists.. Science has been used and abused to bring about more control measure over free persons.
JTM, as I read Jim’s post, again, I understood very well what he meant. Maybe you didn’t understand because you think what is called science today, is not what science is supposed to be. But if that is the case, you are living so far back in time that I doubt your understanding can appreciate how far from their beginnings science has become. Theoretical knowledge has become the norm, and science has been bought and swayed in the direction of financiers who take what they want and throw the truth to the wolves….Maybe you need to work on that roof some more…
Dr. Kent Hovind – Lies in the Textbooks
Lies in the Textbooks Video In part four of the seminar series, Dr. Hovind shows how public school textbooks are permeated with fraudulent information in order to convince students that evolution is true. Lies in the Textbooks is a must-see for every public school student, teacher, parent and school board member.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5665691163985573518&hl=en#
JTM,
You don’t have to appologize for my ignorance about science. I don’t need a scentist to give me his opinion of how to survive on this planet. I’ve been doing just fine on facts (truth). I just hate to see our children taught that the opinion or theory or lies of a few individuals are more important than the truth.
I’ve taught biology before. Some of the aspects of it are extremely intersting but I have to admit, I had one hell of a time with evolution so I just.. um… yeah, I skipped it. The students I taught, it wouldn’t make any difference in their lives, they weren’t going to college, their IQs were around 50 or lower. I don’t know what I’d do if I were teaching kids of a higher level and evolution was required. I think maybe I’d stick with another subject…
On that link, Greg, I thought it was pretty apt that he said, “you might as well learn right now that some people think money is more important than teaching the truth”…and that many of them don’t believe in evolution, but would lose their jobs if they didn’t teach it….Once again, “the root of all evil- the love of money”..
I think this guy might have had a little vision going on..
” Crisis there will continue to be, in meeting them whether foreign or domestic great or small, there is a recurring temptation to feel that some spectacular and costly action could become the miraculous solution to all current difficulties. The prospect of domination of the scholars by federal employment, project and allocation, and the power of money is ever present, and is gravely to be regarded. We must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific elite. ” —-President Dwight Eisonhower
We don’t very often get to read quotes from the likes of Eisenhower but that’s a good one.
WEll, I can see you all know more about science and scientists than I do – even though I’ve been one most of my life. I don’t see any evidence any of you have.
It would take many pages to rebut the misinformation some of you have posted and, since your heads appear solidified it fantasy, I won’t try. It would be like attempting to discuss wolf control with a PEEETA member (only one E in the acronym) I don’t want to attract them here to a hunting site where such mannerless buffoons hold forth. That would be VERY bad for the cause of hunters in the country! I am getting well convinced I’m wasting my time here on that subject.
I will say, without the “truth” developed by application of the scientific method most of us would not enjoy the standard of living we do now, and many wouldn’t have been born or would have already died. Saying its all “Opinion” or “Theory” (implying not based in fact) etc is absurd.
ADF&G killed a bunch of wolves in the NE part of the state this week – two days flying, 9 wolves – I guess there are more there than were at Chignik Lake. They are trying to give the caribou herd a chance to recover from a “predator pit” so us humans can have a few to eat. The AR whackos and ignorant masses are having a field day – wailing, gnashing of teeth, wringing hands trying to effect a political solution to their problem.
Talked with the local trooper about the village dogs today. He confirmed we’ve had problems here but no human deaths. Said he’d had to put some dogs down here in his thirty years here. He commented that in a village ~100 miles away the folks start shooting their village dogs when they start forming packs (one person I know who raises dogs and exercises them in groups told me when the packs get above five you gotta be careful or they might take you on)
On TV last night they had a short video clip of three dogs in Chignik Lake chasing/following a truck. Nakes an inquiring mind wonder how many there are there running free.
JIM said: “I just hate to see our children taught that the opinion or theory or lies of a few individuals are more important than the truth.” Me too, but I’ll bet we do not agree what constitutes truth (or fact for that matter)! Do you have anything specific that botheres you?
jes, Finished the roof deal.
Maybe you need to shut up and listen more. You don’t know anywhere near as much as you appear to think you do. Bluster and a raised leg don’t substitute for fact. You aren’t going to intimidate me, but I might well go away and let you keep bullying anyone who says something you don’t agree with or you think is contrary to your preconceived notions because you didn’t understand it. I can tell you in all certainty that science is alive and well today, still. Advances in the past 50 years in some fields are truly astounding.
Sheesh, I only chanced on this sight in an attempt to find something substantive (contrary to what the ADN was reporting) about the Candice Berner death. I posted fact that had not been mentioned in the press and you opened up with both barrels! I found a pit of hate, ignorance, intolerance etc, etc. I hope folks ambivalent about hunting don’t find this place very often! You’ll turn them off in a flash!
JTM, I’ve done scientific research for a good number of years, but I’m going to have to leave in a flash, since the spring turkey season opened today….see ya!
scientific theory meaning a hunch or speculation.
I realize that science can be a good thing in some fields such as the medical field for example.. But when it comes to things like climate change (global warming) or the management of pedators like the wolf I just can’t put any stock in there opinions or theorys. I believe we were doing just fine prior to the reintroduction of the wolf and the scare tactics of the sceintist on global warming.
I don’t claim to be the sharpest knife in the drawer but I do believe that common sense is still the best logic when it comes to most situations.
JTM~
I’m not a hunter, don’t worry, I wouldn’t open up with both barrels for fear of blowing off my own foot!
I take it you live up in that area? I’ve always said someone living right in the thick of things really should know more about the subject than any of us sitting in our remote locations. Tha’ts kinda why I sit back and read and listen and form my own opinions. Or try to!
JTM, what part of Alaska are you from? Or were you from? And if you’ve stated it before, my apologies for missing it!
Essentially all useful scientific theories have an empirical basis – they are based on observed facts and attempt to “explain” those observations – usually with mathematics. When they not only reproduce the results of observations but also suggest new experiments they are further validated. Just try and imagine where we’d be without Newton, Maxwell, Einstein, Watson/Crick/Franklin, etc (too numerous to list) and all the engineers and folks of other technical disciplines who used the theories they developed (all based on observed facts) in their work.
Global warming: It is fact the globe has been warming since the mid 1600s with extra rapid increase since the middle of the last century.
In that time the human population has increased by about a factor of ten. That increase has placed extreme demands on the planet. We have reduced the system’s capacity to remove CO2 from the atmosphere (deforestation on a global scale, …) and increased the CO2 dumped into the atmosphere (burning fossil fuels, …) and may have upset the “natural” balance. Emissions now are about 5% (last number I saw) above the equilibrium value and atmospheric CO2 is increasing rapidly. Warming in the Arctic is releasing methane and CO2 emissions from previously frozen earth. Maybe the Earth will accommodate – maybe it won’t.
Harley, I’ve lived in Alaska for nearly 42 years; first in the Interior (Fairbanks) and since then on the Kenai Peninsula.
well, jtm, i’m still idiotocised, in the fact that creation is God’s. The rest is bullshit unless in it, it is based on scripture. I know, you are a smart sob, you just said so but too much of this “knowledge” we are sinking in has other ademdum attached to it to confuse. Praise God: pass the ammunition.
Not to slight your education and application of said;
And i thot the law of thermodynamics resulted in the earth eventually COOLING!
So, if the Lord mentioned it in the bible, I missed it. I’m not that well informed.
Thanks again for the thoughts and encouragement; he is now in bed at home.
Searchers found tracks of two wolves and killed two wolves then found no more in the immediate area. The fact that the season is so long and the daily limit 10 has nothing to do with the wolf density.
In the same borough, I spent 10 days on a float trip on the Alagnak River from the lake to tidewater; saw moose, brown bear, two people in one raft; but no sign of wolves, no sounds, no tracks; wilderness!
The burough that includs this village had an estimated human population of about 1600 in 2004, down from 1823 in the 2000 census; the population density, based on the 2000 census was 0.0767 per square mile (or about 13 square miles per person) which is second lowest in the state and the USA. (For comparison, Greenland has a population density of 0.067 per square mile, and it is mostly glacial ice.) That sounds like a lot of true wilderness; looks like it on Google Earth, also. Most of the people live in communities; not spred over the landscape like in rural Idaho.
JTM
Good posts, Dave had a couple also but perhaps decided not to continue a hopeless dialog. I was also going to comment on “In my opinion science is based on theory not fact ” – Jim Richards. Your response, if considered, should be sufficient.
JTM
What a beautiful place to live! I hope some day before I get too old I’ll have an opportunity to experience Alaska. You are extremely lucky my friend.
JTM, why leave out Nikola Tesla, who blew all the others doors off, how about Henry Moray, Royal Raymond Rife, Searl, McCanney, Brown.. I can’t imagine how splitting the Atom could be so great considering all the deaths that caused.. But what do I know, since you placed us into the dunce category we are obviously less than human.. Maybe you should Google Idaho and take a look at all those homes down yonder…
Albert Einstein
– was he a thief, a liar and a plagiarist?
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/einstein.htm
Greg F. I have been to Idaho. Hunted there and in SE OR many weeks many winters in the not too distant past. Yes, there is emptiness, but not on the scale of Alaska.
Please try and have a higher opinion of yourself! I didn’t call you or anyone else here a dunce. I pointed out there is ignorance. Ignorance is curable, duncedom is not.
If you don’t act in a non-duncelike manner we can not know you are not a dunce.
The Dragon In My Garage
by Carl Sagan – submitted to the Gazette by Kevin Gain
“A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage.”
Suppose (I’m following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you’d want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!
“Show me,” you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle — but no dragon. “Where’s the dragon?” you ask. “Oh, she’s right here,” I reply, waving vaguely. “I neglected to mention that she’s an invisible dragon.”
You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon’s footprints. “Good idea,” I say, “but this dragon floats in the air.” Then you’ll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire. “Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless.” You’ll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible. “Good idea, but she’s an incorporeal dragon and the paint won’t stick.” And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won’t work.
Now, what’s the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there’s no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I’m asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so. The only thing you’ve really learned from my insistence that there’s a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You’d wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then, why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I’ve seriously underestimated human fallibility. Imagine that, despite none of the tests being successful, you wish to be scrupulously open-minded. So you don’t outright reject the notion that there’s a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. You merely put it on hold. Present evidence is strongly against it, but if a new body of data emerge you’re prepared to examine it and see if it convinces you. Surely it’s unfair of me to be offended at not being believed; or to criticize you for being stodgy and unimaginative — merely because you rendered the Scottish verdict of “not proved.”
Imagine that things had gone otherwise. The dragon is invisible, all right, but footprints are being made in the flour as you watch. Your infrared detector reads off-scale. The spray paint reveals a jagged crest bobbing in the air before you. No matter how skeptical you might have been about the existence of dragons — to say nothing about invisible ones — you must now acknowledge that there’s something here, and that in a preliminary way it’s consistent with an invisible, fire-breathing dragon.
Now another scenario: Suppose it’s not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you’re pretty sure don’t know each other, all tell you that they have dragons in their garages — but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive. All of us admit we’re disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence. None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible dragons were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I’d rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient European and Chinese myths about dragons weren’t myths at all.
Gratifyingly, some dragon-size footprints in the flour are now reported. But they’re never made when a skeptic is looking. An alternative explanation presents itself. On close examination it seems clear that the footprints could have been faked. Another dragon enthusiast shows up with a burnt finger and attributes it to a rare physical manifestation of the dragon’s fiery breath. But again, other possibilities exist. We understand that there are other ways to burn fingers besides the breath of invisible dragons. Such “evidence” — no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it — is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.
JTM, Let me put it this way….If you were God, and you had created humanity, and you wanted to give them the greatest gift you could give them, what would it be?
Perhaps it would be freedom. Freedom to live their lives free from your power, free from your influence, free from your protection, (unless you went to extreme means to request it), and free from all evidence of your presences, except the beautiful world He created to involve you, entrance you, puzzle you, and endless variations of everything but BORE you….
Why would He erase the evidence…He didn’t you did…
Why doesn’t He make Himself more evident? Because His power is intimidating, and He does not desire to threaten, or coerce, or intimidate…To do so takes away our freedom, does it not? Is not any evidence at all threatening?
If you had a hard time finding Him, you would not be the first…..For though the evidence is lacking, and it is evident….But sometimes you must see with eyes beyond your vision…it is often called imagination, and it is a tricky game no matter who you are. And imagination is often called insight, and often called the creative spark, reaching beyond the mechanical input of a computer, into realms which are truly divine. You glimpse these in the great sacrifices, great music, great inventions that seem to come just when the time is right. You glimpse them when your eyes water over the loss of a loved one, or when the words inspire you to great heights…..Perhaps you do not attribute them to your creator, but that is because that is the way He wants it. If you touched Him, your life would be changed, you would see the dragon, and perhaps you are not ready to do battle. That you do not see the dragon, and you enjoy the mechanical tests that would prove or disprove it’s evidence, tells me you wonder if there is not more that you cannot see, more than you can touch, more than you can fathom….
Science in it’s purest form is only in the asking….of the what and why of all things, and how can we understand that which is understandable? The science of today is corrupted by politics, and graft and the love of money, which is understandable, but inexcusable if we consider that we can create and test and experiment and still find a way without the corruptible means of procuring money to provide and procure for us and our families…When we lose faith in ourselves, we reach out for the corruptible, and easy, because we have never found the inner source of ourselves, which is incorruptible, undefileable, and perfect….not that that is us, but that is in us as God. And that is where we reach. He is at the center of your and my being, but we cloud out the memories with our concern for ourselves…
If you ever take the time….to look and listen for what is within you, you will find Him there…The dragon leaves no footprints, and neither does God… But you have the means to find Him, if only you will listen.
Greg., I didn’t exclude Tesla (an inventor) or anyone else who has used his head and the scientific method to advance our understanding of HER universe. They were all included in “Newton, Maxwell, Einstein, Watson/Crick/Franklin, etc (too numerous to list) and all the engineers and folks of other technical disciplines… ”
The biblebelievers.org reference is “interesting”: The author also does not understand how science works nor the status of our understanding of light etc. at the turn of the last century. Yes, light speed was thought to be a constant (as long as the light stayed in one material) , but space was thought to be filled with a medium (the aether) through which light traveled at that fixed speed. The suggestion that Lorentz, for instance, discovered SR before Einstein hardly indicates plagiarism – because that is not what happened – Lorentz pointed out that the MM experiments could be “explained” if one assumes lengths are contracted in a certain manner – just pulled the Lorentz contraction out of the air so to speak. Einstein showed that lengths contract ( clocks slow down) under certain situations of relative motion of observers) and , and the equivalence of mass and energy, E = mc² follow from two principles which he stated.
He tied a bunch of stuff together that had been known or suspected before.
Read his 1905 paper at: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
Shortly after that, his teacher, Minkowski, showed all this followed from a more formal geometrical formulation in which space coordinates and time are treated equivalently with a certain relationship between them. This space-time has been named Minkowski space.
Sorry, fellers, I don’t discuss religion or politics (two very similar disciplines) with any but my close acquaintances and almost never in public.
I like what Chuck Missler says about light reflections, Biblical science, and HIS OUR HEAVENLY FATHERS creation of all things including man. I”ll stick with the science in the Bible, The earth as the center of the Universe with the Sun going around earth.. Carl Sagan’s last book is deserving of being tossed into the hole with Carl. Sagan is nothing more than a highly paid, celebrated establishment misinformationist.
Any of these establishment highly worshiped individuals such as Sagan, Cayce, Sitchin, especially the ” Top 10 scientists ” are suspect as far as I am concerned, Especially when they give credence to Helena P. Blavatsky, Alice Baily, and her Lucius trust foundation, And are recognized as great minds by the Vatican. James McCanney is a classic example of the biased unfairness in the scientific establishment world with his banishment from that establishment based on his refusal to lie or be controlled. Even as many of his studies have later changed how establishment gurus think and work, like NASA.. McCanney does not believe the truth should be hidden from the public, and all the public gets are dumbed down versions of scientific reality, thanks to men like Sagan, Hancock, Darwin.. Etc. etc..
As far as Einstein goes his association with Jesuits is enough for me to ponder his credibility.. ( And don’t go dragging that flat earth lie card out of your magicians hat either, because that was a lie started up in the 19th Century by our Jesuit friends, no Bible believers of ancient times believed in a flat earth, the wording in the very Scientific uncorrupted by Rome Bible itself proves the earth is sphere). So far not one scientific famous man has offered humanity hope, not one. I suggest you get a history lesson there Pops, you have been boondoggled.
Chuck Missler – Genesis – Session 02 – (Ch. 1.2-5) Day One
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=4615661694179109951&hl=en#
Biologists and Idaho’s Reality
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBvYcIO-gfQ
Noah flood
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsmW-X1GWgk
Nice little video, to bad he is far from Biblically accurate in his attempt to discredit Biblical truth. We have enough water on earth right now to cover the earth, shove those mountains into the holes of the oceans and force the waters upwards and you drown. See NASA. The Chronology of the flood from the time that Noah entered the ark to the time that he placed his foot on dry land spans 1 year and 17 days ( The exact time may vary somewhat in some manuscripts).
The Biblical description describes the week before the flood waters came, the 40 day rain, the fountains of the deep bursting forth and the waters peaking and covering the antediluvian mountains after 157 days. This is followed by receding flood waters, the drying of the earth by wind and Noah finally leaving the Ark in the region of Mount Ararat, obviously in an area of high relief.
The time frame presented in the Scriptures does thus not preclude the possibility of the flood waters continuing to recede for a much longer time after this period in areas of lower relief.
Moreover, since the flood waters rose for a longer period than the rain fell, there must have been other sources of water involved than just the water from above, and the waters of the great deep that are mentioned in the Biblical account are thus of particular interest. The waters for the flood came from two sources, the rain from above and the fountains of the great deep from below..
The Evolutionist Ape people wish to prove the flood is a lie, they cannot do so.. Such and event does undermine their dogma, the very essence of the evolutionary paradigm which requires continuity of life from it’s inception to the present time in order to allow for evolutionary change over their exaggerated time frames. There is no room in this THEORY of EVILUTION for the total destruction of terrestrial life in the relatively recent 4,800 year past.
Nice bug eyed cartoon though.
I’m glad someone had the intestinal fortitude to watch it, I didn’t…I felt sick just seeing the title..Funny why they would even bother with trying to disprove the flood for a denial of God’s existence…(it’s one of the most common themes for all of ancient literature, and the most unifying and consistent story…)
Here’s a long, short story that was just forwarded me by a friend. Not that I will usually post an email, but this one seemed to me to be at the right time, and intended for the right person….maybe he can figure out who he is:
Father John Powell
Father John Powell, a professor at Loyola University in Chicago, writes about a student in his Theology of Faith class named Tommy:
Some twelve years ago, I stood watching my university students file into the classroom for our first session in the Theology of Faith.
That was the day I first saw Tommy. My eyes and my mind both blinked. He was combing his long flaxen hair, which hung six inches below his shoulders. It was the first time I had ever seen a boy with hair that long.. I guess it was just coming into fashion then. I know in my mind that it isn’t what’s on your head but what’s in it that counts; but on that day I was unprepared and my emotions flipped. I immediately filed Tommy under “S” for strange… Very strange.
Tommy turned out to be the “atheist in residence” in my Theology of Faith course. He constantly objected to, smirked at, or whined about the possibility of an unconditionally loving Father/God. We lived with each other in relative peace for one semester, although I admit he was for me at times a serious pain in the back pew.
When he came up at the end of the course to turn in his final exam, he asked in a cynical tone, “Do you think I’ll ever find God?”
I decided instantly on a little shock therapy. “No!” I said very emphatically.
“Why not,” he responded, “I thought that was the product you were pushing.”
I let him get five steps from the classroom door and then I called out, “Tommy! I don’t think you’ll ever find Him, but I am absolutely certain that He will find you! “He shrugged a little and left my class and my life.
I felt slightly disappointed at the thought that he had missed my clever line — He will find you! At least I thought it was clever.
Later I heard that Tommy had graduated, and I was duly grateful.
Then a sad report came.I heard that Tommy had terminal cancer. Before I could search him out, he came to see me. When he walked into my office, his body was very badly wasted and the long hair had all fallen out as a result of chemotherapy.
But his eyes were bright and his voice was firm, for the first time, I believe. “Tommy, I’ve thought about you so often; I hear you are sick,” I blurted out.
“Oh, yes, very sick. I have cancer in both lungs. It’s a matter of weeks.”
“Can you talk about it, Tom?” I asked.
“Sure, what would you like to know?” he replied.
“What’s it like to be only twenty-four and dying?
“Well, it could be worse.
“Like what?
“Well, like being fifty and having no values or ideals, like being fifty and thinking that booze, seducing women, and making money are the real biggies in life..
I began to look through my mental file cabinet under “S” where I had filed Tommy as strange.(It seems as though everybody I try to reject by classification, God sends back into my life to educate me.)
“But what I really came to see you about,” Tom said, “is something you said to me on the last day of class.”(He remembered!) He continued, “I asked you if you thought I would ever find God and you said, ‘No!’ which surprised me Then you said, ‘But He will find you.’I thought about that a lot, even though my search for God was hardly intense at that time.
(My clever line. He thought about that a lot!)
“But when the doctors removed a lump from my groin and told me that it was malignant, that’s when I got serious about locating God.. And when the malignancy spread into my vital organs, I really began banging bloody fists against the bronze doors of heaven. But God did not come out.
In fact, nothing happened. Did you ever try anything for a long time with great effort and with no success? You get psychologically glutted, fed up with trying.. And then you quit.
“Well, one day I woke up, and instead of throwing a few more futile appeals over that high brick wall to a God who may be or may not be there, I just quit. I decided that I didn’t really care about God, about an after life, or anything like that.
I decided to spend what time I had left doing something more profitable. I thought about you and your class and I remembered something else you had said: ‘The essential sadness is to go through life without loving. But it would be almost equally sad to go through life and leave this world without ever telling those you loved that you had loved them.’”
“So, I began with the hardest one, my Dad. He was reading the newspaper when I approached him. “Dad.”
Yes, what?” he asked without lowering the newspaper. “Dad, I would like to talk with you.”
“Well, talk.
“I mean. It’s really important.”
The newspaper came down three slow inches. “What is it?”
“Dad, I love you, I just wanted you to know that. “Tom smiled at me and said it with obvious satisfaction, as though he felt a warm and secret joy flowing inside of him..”The newspaper fluttered to the floor.
Then my father did two things I could never remember him ever doing before. He cried and he hugged me. We talked all night, even though he had to go to work the next morning. It felt so good to be close to my father, to see his tears, to feel his hug, to hear him say that he loved me.”
“It was easier with my mother and little brother. They cried with me, too, and we hugged each other, and started saying real nice things to each other. We shared the things we had been keeping secret for so many years.
“I was only sorry about one thing — that I had waited so long. Here I was, just beginning to open up to all the people I had actually been close to.
“Then, one day I turned around and God was there. He didn’t come to me when I pleaded with Him. I guess I was like an animal trainer holding out a hoop, ‘C’mon, jump through. C’mon, I’ll give you three days, three weeks.’”
“Apparently God does things in His own way and at His own hour. But the important thing is that He was there. He found me! You were right. He found me even after I stopped looking for Him.”
“Tommy,” I practically gasped, “I think you are saying something very important and much more universal than you realize. To me, at least, you are saying that the surest way to find God is not to make Him a private possession, a problem solver, or an instant consolation in time of need, but rather by opening to love. You know, the Apostle John said that.
He said: ‘God is love, and anyone who lives in love is living with God and God is living in him. ‘Tom, could I ask you a favor? You know, when I had you in class you were a real pain. But (laughingly) you can make it all up to me now. Would you come into my present Theology of Faith course and tell them what you have just told me? If I told them the same thing it wouldn’t be half as effective as if you were to tell it.
“Oooh.. I was ready for you, but I don’t know if I’m ready for your class.”
“Tom, think about it. If and when you are ready, give me a call.”
In a few days Tom called, said he was ready for the class, that he wanted to do that for God and for me. So we scheduled a date.
However, he never made it. He had another appointment, far more important than the one with me and my class. Of course, his life was not really ended by his death, only changed. He made the great step from faith into vision.
He found a life far more beautiful than the eye of man has ever seen or the ear of man has ever heard or the mind of man has ever imagined.
Before he died, we talked one last time.
“I’m not going to make it to your class,” he said.
“I know, Tom.”
“Will you tell them for me? Will you … tell the whole world for me?”
I will, Tom. I’ll tell them. I’ll do my best.”
So, to all of you who have been kind enough to read this simple story about God’s love, thank you for listening. And to you, Tommy, somewhere in the sunlit, verdant hills of heaven — I told them, Tommy, as best I could.
If this story means anything to you, please pass it on to a friend or two.
It is a true story and is not enhanced for publicity purposes.
With thanks, Rev. John Powell, Professor, Loyola
University, Chicago
jes, I’m interested to hear about your science research.
I worked in molecular spectroscopy. Determined the geometric structure of molecules; measured certain parameters which were involved in the interactions between atomic nuclei and the rest of the molecule; verified that for certain molecules with two chlorine atoms in them, the quantum mechanical requirements that the wave function) the solution to the quantum equation describing the molecule have certain symmetry properties was indeed satisfied (a matter not settled in that lab at the time); and measured an electrical property of the molecule which is involved in its interaction with an external electric field.
I also worked on a study of properties of ice islands and pressure ridges and a large study of mathematical, computer simulations of the Tundra ecosystem on the North slope of Alaska.
I all that work I used and depended on the work of MANY, MANY workers who came before (as every scientist does) but there is no way to describe that as ‘plagiarism.’
JTM, after you bait the trap, does the coyote walk the same path? Does the wolf know your intention as you walk? What is your intention being on this website? To post your inter-office credentials, or to brag on your intellect? These seem to me to be trivial pursuits….Perhaps you intend to issue proclamations to benefit the wolf? You’re welcome to try….however, maybe you are really a hunter at heart, and not a research scientist who has retired and found no interest in pursuing his former vocation…Perhaps you should state your reasons before you try to issue your disclaimers…
Just to taste your bait, I was in research in ophthalmology….but if I wanted to impress you with technological descriptions, I would be following your tact….and that ain’t me. Now off to spring another trap!
Jes, You’re right. I no longer have any purpose here unless more info turns up on the subject of Candice Berner’s death – I’ll return then.
I found this site when searching for the autopsy report. It wasn’t here though the headline proclaimed results the report did not actually claim. I pointed out an alternative hypothesis to wolves as being the killers which would be consistent with the autopsy. ( Alternative working hypotheses are at the very heart of scientific inquiry – that process which has lifted man from running naked but for fig leaves over the private parts in the desert to our standard of living here today.)
You came at me with both barrels accusing me of being the type to turn a serial killer loose etc. You repeated your stupid, unfounded attacks later in the thread. Ignorance on Alaska at just about every aspect appeared and I thought some would like to know more – supplied same. Science came up – a subject I have some expertise in and I hoped to enlighten some watchers. Our country needs more mathematicians, scientists, engineers and technically educated people or our future is bleak. In competition with several billions of people in other countries who are dedicated and able our lunch is goona be et by them if we don’t shape up. the sort of ignorant and even hateful crap and outright lies that some of you have been spouting about science in this thread certainly would not do anything to encourage your kids or other youngsters to go into those professions. IMO, but for the free speech amendment, such ranting would constitute TREASON or a domestic terrorism act against the USA!!! You proclaimed 20 years of experience in scientific research. You’re the one who set the baited trap, not I. I’m not sorry I took your bait – You confirmed you’re nothing more than a dickhead jerk with a penchant for trying to mark the hydrant higher than anyone else, and an abusive mouth. Jesus would be proud, I’m sure.
Now, don’t you feel better?
LMAO.. And in parting we see a familiar trait.. do unto those that which you accuse them of doing ha ha ha ha ha… PERFECT.
Here bubba lets have a little more truth shall we..
” Even if all the data point to an intelligent designer, such an hypothesis is excluded from science because it is not naturalistic. ” Scott C. Todd, Department of Biology at Kansas State University…
Now that’s integrity for ya right there… No rigging the data going on eh amigo, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ….
You know, JTM, you keep spouting about how we are condemning SCIENCE, by criticizing the scientists who have screwed up in USING “their” science to lord it over the country, and are making mistakes at it….I’m sure as an educated man, you must realize that we are not blaming “SCIENCE” but the men who would use it as a tool to control those of us they have no right to control..There have been plenty of comments here to that effect, but you seem to have paid them no mind…In a way, by being as snobbish and pompous as you have been, you have given credence to that attitude of superiority, that many in the profession have…
Get it right before you go, if you go…We do not condemn “science”, but we certainly know the pitfalls of those who misuse it, and those who claim to know the truth, when they do not. It is your shortcoming that you defend the whole tribe, when you must know there are those who are charlatans in your midst…
I have already admitted that I may have come at you with both barrels, and that is my favorite gun…tied with an old lever action, thought…but if you had any gumption, you would quit whining and either defend yourself, or speak truthfully about your insight, instead of fortifying my assumptions that you were simply another wolf lover who knows nothing but what the books have taught him…Maybe you could do a better job, and I might be more prone to believe you. Instead you spout technical terms any fool could learn if he spent enough years in the profession, and just who were you trying to impress? YOURSELF? iF, you had something to share, why not share it instead of spouting rhetoric?
Got the feeling you WOULD like to try us as terrorists……but that stinks. And it shows just how your mind works. And speaks worlds of what you would impose on those who think differently than you… Now, just how American is that?
I have to ask you to produce just where I claim to have, as I quote: “proclaimed 20 years of experience in scientific research” ….If you find any post where I said that, I will eat my words, and admit I lied…..So, find it! (do yourself a favor, and just admit you were wrong)
I definitely think you did yourself some good, though…giving some vent is probably what the doctor ordered..
See you around, sometime….and good luck with your life. And when you see My Lord, you will know some of the things I have said were true…..and you will see Him someday…count on it!
Science is wonderful, or is it ?
http://candidconservatives.com/leuren-moret-depopulation-by-nuclear/
And God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth. Those words were written nearly two thousand years ago about the future. How could primitive man possibly have known that man would be ruining the earth? There was no gasoline or vehicles, no factories, no toxic wastes, no deforestation of the earth, no tons and tons of garbage dumping, besides other forms of pollution. How could they have even conceived of the earth being ruined as it is today? Looks like a fulfilled prophesy of ruining the earth to me. In fact, polluting of the earth to bring it to ruin did not really get going until the start of the industrial age in the 1850′s. How do you explain that away? And it’s not vague either, the earth is literally being ruined.
Got a question to throw out to the general public that post here. Have any of you ever, ever heard me state that wolves shouldn’t be allowed to exist?
Not at all!
Nope, you’re a wolf lover Harley.. I likes em to, it’s the communists what drives me up the wall.. Don’t dare call em communists either, that’s rued.
Nope, never
Sounds like you’ve been accused of something you are not, Harley….just consider the source of what you’re hearing..Just remember in the emotional realm of non-reasoners, there is never any fact but THEIR fact, and you will never get past it, even with the truth.
I mean honestly, I’ve tried to lay it out there. I don’t know how many times I’ve stated, I do not want to wipe out the wolves. I don’t. But Good grief if there is a problem with one starving or a pack starving, who knows what they will do! Yeah, ok, maybe I’m just some suburbanite who doesn’t know anything about anything to do with ‘the wilds’ but common sense would dictate that if the poor thing is starving, put it out of it’s misery. Death by starving is NOT pretty, that much I’ve seen first hand. To accuse me of not wanting to ‘allow’ wolves to exist is plain and simple BS!
Oh yeah, that’s right, since people didn’t see that it was stated that the wolves that killed Candice were starving, then it must not be true. People just want to kill wolves so they can go about killing the other stuff in peace with no competition.. Idiots
Ok sorry, wow! Yeah, that site really pissed me off. Deep breath…
Thanks for the validation gentlemen.
Lee? All you’re doing is pushing me further and further away. Nice job…
Harley – Let me share what I learned a long time ago. If you in anyway, shape or form, not drink the wolf Kool-Aid and 100% support the absolute protection of wolves in all situations, then you will be labeled and accused as being someone who wants them all dead.
This same holds true with just about everything I know of when it comes to environmentalism, animals rights, etc. There simply is no tolerance.
Oh, the most censured blog in Idaho by Marxist dumb twit Priest Maughan again. That place is a huge disinformation center and JOKE. The name should be changed to their way or the highway.. Actually those people are the worst thing that ever happened to the wolf.
Thanks for the wisdom Tom. That certainly turns my point of view completely upside down because I always thought people like that were tolerant. I can clearly see what you say is very true. They try to find loop holes in everything that seems to be logical when it runs against their agenda…. But wait! Did the report say the wolves were starving? But wait! She shouldn’t have been wearing her iPod! But wait, she didn’t know what the hell she was doing right? But wait! Maybe she rolled in elk scent and blood before she went on her run…..Because CLEARLY the wolves shouldn’t have to be punished just for being wolves, right?
Killing elk ,deer and anything else they can catch and destroy for reasons other than hunger as wolves do and destroying private property such as sheep and cattle then yes they should be shot for being wolves.
Harley, I really think you should plague the hell out of them over there….Yeah, I know, it’s frustrating….but consider it your civic responsibility to throw some disorder into their ranks, you know, like Lee tries to do here….. Report back and recharge your spiritual batteries! You will suffer in the dark…consider it your dues…lol!
Best of luck removing their scabs from their eyes… I don’t think the man exists who can make that possible. This nation is bankrupt, every federal scheme is broken, and those guys are worried about a doggy..
Oh yeah… she’s pushin buttons.
http://wolves.wordpress.com/2010/03/10/wolves-might-have-killed-alaskan-teacher/comment-page-3/#comment-104411
There are a lot of unarmed Russian Peasant ghosts in Russian history who had been killed by wolves, The people of the North American continent have been well armed for 400 years. The odds here were better, take the guns and the odds will change.. Harley, Lee can’t spend real time in Idaho back country to see the truth first hand, she never has done so since reintroduction, and if she did, certainly not since the population reached 850- 1500- 3000 wolves. And even if she did do this she would still push those lies she pushes.. Try to understand, Jesuit Ape man Darwin is her god.. She is stupid.
Another source of conviction in the existence of God, connected with the reason and not with the feelings, impresses me as having much more weight. This follows from the extreme difficulty or rather impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capacity of looking far backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity. When thus reflecting, I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a Theist. —Charles Darwin
In 1879, three years before the end of his life, Darwin wrote that he had “never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. —Darwin, as cited in Bowden 1998, p273..
Harley
Wolves were introduced into Idaho in 1995 and 1996.
Since that time I have floated the Selway River in the Selway Bitteroot Wilderness, the Middle Fork of the Salmon in the Frank Church Wilderness, the upper Main Salmon, and horse packed into the Grave Peak area, rugged high country, again in the SBW. On that trip we saw moose, and lots of deer. I have seen nor heard no wolves on any ot these trips. But I guess that my time doesn’t count as real time.
And Lee, I noticed very easily, that you failed to mention just when it was you took those trips…..sometimes things like wolves change the picture very readily!
I don’t recall that I ever mentioned anything about wolves “opening gates”. If I did someone could find that or those posts and help me refresh and aging mind. I do however believe they have the mental capacity to do such a thing. Domestic dogs do it, so I assume a wolf could too. But I have no evidence in my stash to show this to be, at least that I can recall.
I don’t recall you saying wolves opened gates you did say that two wolves robbed a bank once but I don’t recall gates
I did say two wolves robbed a bank. I said a lot of things about wolves and even retold stories of how they were lured into traps years ago awaiting an ambush from men bent on killing as many as they could.
I know! Recall the story of Little Red Riding Hood. For the wolf to get into the house and get into Grannies bed, I bet the wolf had to open the front door. But did I ever retell that story here?
I was joking about the wolves robbing a bank however I do believe they are very cunning and probably more capable than we might think.
Lee ~ Huh..i have a very good friend who spends 10 days up on Isle Royale and has done so for 14 years. Never heard a wolf. Never saw one either… Guess that means there aren’t any!
Harley
No, it doesn’t mean there aren’t any.
Did he want to see any?
It’s not uncommon to not see predators such as wolves or mountain lions even though you know they are there. In Colorado alone there is a estimated population of five to six thousand lions and probably 90% of the people who live there have never seen one.
No Lee, he wants to go to Isle Royale and shoot them all….
He wouldn’t mind seeing one. His main reason there is to assist in the research study, collecting moose bones.
I believe the point I was trying to make was that you stated you didn’t see or hear any wolves while in Idaho, heavily implying that there aren’t as many as some say there are. I was just giving a different perspective.
Harley
Thanks for the different perspective and explaining why your friend was there. Sounds like a worthy study.
JR
I have seen few cougar but I sure used to keep a watchful eye for them on the rock ledges when I hiked over the Swan Mountains going to the Bob Marshall W.
Harley, in my estimation a well written article:
http://www.hcn.org/blogs/grange/hunting-season-may-be-over-but-wolves-are-hardly-in-the-clear?src=rc#1270232603
It may be “well written” but it’s a bunch of crap lies.
Leftist hatred bullshit. It amazes me about you progressive liberals, who never use facts, only rhetoric that you have convinced the rest of the world to be “fact”, that when truth is presented and substantiated, as this writer denies, you go into a frenzy and begin calling opponents names.
I’m sick of all of you! Bullshit lies all of it!
Ok, I could be wrong but from what I’ve gathered here, there are very few that ‘hate’ the wolf. There are very few here that want the wolf ‘extreminated, eliminated’. I see a lot of, there needs to be some checks and balances. I see a lot of, perhaps these wolves were no the grey timber wolf but some other sub species. To be honest, I don’t think the anger here has anything at all to do with wolves Lee. It has to do with the betrayal felt. It has to do with people who aren’t from your area trying to tell you what’s best for you. America was kinda based on people who were tried of being told what was best for them from across the ocean. I kinda tend to think that’s the American way. It’s like when you are a teacher and people in the government want to tell you what is best practice and the last time they were in a classroom was as a student…
It’s not about hate. It’s about what is right and what is wrong and to bring in a predator to the Rockies to devastate the Elk herd Is just that WRONG. The damage done will be more than just the loss of the great herds that were once here but the loss of elk hunting all together and the loss of the livelyhood of many people who depend on the revenue brought in by hunters to there state.
The Yellowstone herd will probably never recover and Idaho is in even worse shape. As long as the wolves are allowed to multiply at the rate they are.There is little hope.
Tom, Just a few comments regarding “crap lies”
“As the hunt draws to a close, tensions over wolf management remain high. ” From what I observe this is a true statement.
“Last year there were more illegal killings of wolves in the Northern Rockies than there were in 2008.” Personally, I don’t think this is an important issue. I don’t have any data to verify or refute this claim; do you?
” Unscientific anti-wolf rhetoric in the West has become so commonplace and unchallenged in regional media articles that it’s in danger of becoming accepted as ‘fact.’ ” This appears to be true in some instances at least – such as “Canadian wolves” they aren’t, “much larger ” again they aren’t – I have sent data and links regarding the size of the reintroduced wolves on several occassions.; the Idaho average for adults was 101 pounds. However, in news articles these non facts, foreign and bigger, are often included..
“Recent headlines from across the region showcase the escalating persecution wolves face from many sides: from the usual vocal anti-wolf interest groups” (Tony Maye; saveourelk.com: Considering the recent developments about the massive spread of disease for which these “re-introduced” wolves are responsible, and the irreversible harm they are inflicting on other wildlife and other species – this organization, this USFWS is likely responsible for the single biggest environmental catastrophe facing the West in recent history. ) “to political candidates.” (You recently reported Mark French from Paradise Montana wants wolf numbers greatly diminished) and state legislative officials looking not to inform but to incite fear by whipping their constituents into an irrational wolf-hating frenzy. (Idaho HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 43.). True, they are there.
With regards to the political candidates, Mark French wants the reduction because of the non-native species (not true) bringing in “the tapeworm” (not true, it was already here – present in many canines including fox, coyote, dog); domestic predation (it was expected ); and the tragic killing of a person in Alaska?
My ya’ll have been busy since I last visited.
I said then I’d post again when I had more to report on the subject article from Alaska.
I’m gonna break that “promise” because I can help Tom find more on something he posted about…
Tom Remington said: “I don’t recall that I ever mentioned anything about wolves “opening gates”. If I did someone could find that or those posts and help me refresh and aging mind. I do however believe they have the mental capacity to do such a thing. Domestic dogs do it, so I assume a wolf could too. But I have no evidence in my stash to show this to be, at least that I can recall.”
I think you’ll find what you want and more in Lois Crisler’s book “Arctic Wild” and/or Jim Rearden’s book “The Wolves of Alaska.” The later does the best job of presenting the case for and history of wolf (and bear) control and management in Alaska for the general public reader as I know of.
jes: You’re right. I misquoted you. What you actually claimed was “I’ve done scientific research for a good number of years,…” Please accept my sincere and most humble apology for pegging it at 20 years. Just how long was “a good number of years?”
Greg Farber: Did you get your limit in the recent open wolf season in Idaho? Want to shoot some more? ADF&G is trying to kill off an excess in the eastern interior part of the state. The NR trapping license up here costs $250. Season closes April 30. There is no limit. The NR hunting license is $85, season runs through end of May, but you can only kill five and the regulations on the use of bait and methods are more restrictive than trapping. If you want more info, I can supply links. Come on up and show them how to do it.
I read the HCN story, posted a comment and was labeled as a reader of “Red Riding Hood”. (I’ve been reading every research paper I can find for the last 5+ years and sending for books.)
I did respond in part:
… In a closed ecosystem like Isle Royal, the wolves do self regulate their population. However Idaho is not a closed ecosystem, and young wolves leave the core population (prime habitat) and form new packs in marginal habitat. The population grows and spreads, like tossing a pebble in a pond. That is how 44 wolves turned into 1700 wolves.
… do some research …. Start with wolf population maps and realize that people, nice people with families, live in small towns where the wolf packs are. Its not just ranchers and farmer, or hunters, its someones grandma or aunt worried about the grand kids playing in their own yards.
Not all people that see the need for management are “anti wolf” – we realize the benefits of a balanced ecosystem. We also realize that wolves should not be living around where people live, and as more wolves become habituated to humans, more attacks will likely occur. Why is it so wrong to educate people and try and prevent another tragedy?
JTM ~
Glad you came back, thought maybe you’d been chased away.
Alaska’s wolf hunters don’t need shown how to kill wolves they just need wolf huggers to shut up and get out of the way. I have plenty to keep me busy down under. After all, the greatest wolf hunter spent time in Alaska during the 1915-55 era, he loved wolves, and he recognized the need to keep em in line.. Frank Glaser. No doubt plenty of wolves get taken up that way that you have never and will never hear about.. I suspect the wolf in these parts gets gut shot more than you might know as well. There is no limit on a non sustainable non resource non game animal, excepting in the imagination of a small group of complete fools. Shoot the dog.
GF,
Actually they do need help, that’s why ADF&G takes to the air and issues a few permits to people with sufficient skill to also do so to kill more than hunters and trappers usually get. Snow conditions are not very good for the aerial culling operation and it is unlikely the 185 or so additional wolves they want to kill will be killed this winter. I figured you’d decline the invite to come up, I thought of offering to buy your licence for you but waited to see whether there was any interest.. An expert such as yourself, a student of Frank Glaser could help out and make a few bucks doing it during the rest of the month. Drive on up, stop in Tok and get your license, talk to F&G biologists there and head on out the Taylor Highway – get some “dogs.” It’s only a three or four day drive.
BUT you didn’t say, did you get yours while the Idaho season was open?
Frank figures highly in Mr. Rearden’s book referenced above through excerpts taken from his earlier book on the man, “Alaska’s Wolf Man.” Perhaps you read that one?
In Alaska there is no need to be secretive about the wolf one kills. OTOH, what you think happens there probably does happen with grizzley bears. I am pretty sure of several instances where GBs were killed and left to rot. Interestingly enough, in one area of Alaska where moose and caribou herds were down and not growing and the cause was suspected to be an overabundance of wolves; many wolves were killed to no positive effect on the moose and caribou populations. Careful study eventually showed GBs were killing about half of the newborns before they reached six months age – keeping the pops down.
Whether you like it or not we value our wolves up here. They are a valuable fur bearer of significant economic importance in Alaska. They are also a valuable member of the entire ecosystem where man does not have sufficient impact on the ungulate populations. Visitors like to think they might be able to see one and spend money trying to do so. Yes, it is true, from time to time and place to place “the balance of nature” w/o man doesn’t suite our needs or laws and we take extraordinary measures to reduce the wolf population. This is especially true where man has ready access to moose and/or caribou herds and tends to take a significant fraction of those herds for food. There are not very many Alaskan’s who want them exterminated. There ARE too many newcomers, especially in Anchorage, who don’t understand and want all killing of wolves stopped.
.
My time up that way would be better spent fishing. I am not concerned with the ungulates of Alaska as much as I am with the ungulates of Idaho, and my private property in Idaho. I am familiar with the heavy brush and low visibility of the Alaskan Bush. I cannot cross Canada with my weapon of choice which is the Revolver, Freedom Arms Field Grade Model 454 Casull.. My idea of the ideal brush gun. Down here under in Idaho my baiting process with horses and mules is working better than I ever expected, the dog hunts us.. I suggest those fellers up yonder try em some live bait, while they wait.. maybe a couple domestic bitch dogs in heat penned in and opening, surrounded by traps, then the .22 would work nice..
With arctic wolf pelts going at auction near $300, thought you’d jump at the chance to kill some dogs and make some bucks. Start now and you can pay for a summer of fishing after the wolf season closes.
Could probably find a dealer you could mail that revolver to – maybe even in Tok.
It is tragic that this young woman has been killed. I am sorry for the pain her family must be feeling. That being said, these are the risks you take living in wilderness areas. Nobody would be talking about killing all of the bears if this were a bear attack. It would sadly be accepted and the offending bear would be killed. Some of you would prefer to wipe out the wolf completey and that is total bullshit. I have heard all of your bullshit rantings about the Big Bad Wolf and how a pack of them can take down a 1500 lb. moose. Yeah, well I have seen a single hunter do the same with a rifle, so give me a break. I think you are simply in love with killing and you are looking for an exuse to go kill something else.
Nelson
I haven’t heard anyone say they want to wipe out the wolf entirely only that they want them managed like any other predator needs to be. As far as looking for a excuse to kill them thats a stupid remark. There is a hunting season on them in Alaska. No excuse needed. The only bullshit going on here is your comment.
If that was 300 ounces of pure silver per hide i might just get after it.. Since the true definition of a dollar is one ounce of silver.. 300 lousy fiat script paper and ink FRNs just don’t seem to interesting to me some how.. My summer and fall are booked up JTM, I know about shipping my guns off when traveling, never was to fond of the idea.. That pistola with the scope is pushing 3000 FRNs, and I really like it and all ya know, I would get to missing that girl after a day or so.. I have several dens here to home to keep me busy this spring and summer.. And the fishing in the Frank Church is awesome.. Me and ole Rattler are just to busy down under what with these varmints moving into our space here, a little fishing, and the gold mine..
Nelson ~
Jim Richards is correct. I would not be here if there was wide spread advocating of killing all the wolves, trust me. Making those wide blanket statements of the people here is through ignorance.
Greg Farber, I understand. You can’t blame me for trying to turn you onto something though, can you?
You have a wonderful summer. Idaho isn’t too bad a place to be, if you can’t be in Alaska
Nelson, I sure don’t want all the wolves in Alaska wiped out; but at times some culling appears necessary. When the State started wolf culling in GMU 20A in 1976 after there had been none since 1960, there were 239 wolves and 2500 moose in the area. By 1998 963 wolves had been killed by control efforts plus hunters and trappers. The wolf population had increased to 244 and the moose population was up to 11000 allowing a substantial increase in harvest of meat by residents of Alaska and other states. The chances for a tourist to see a wolf was about the same, to see a moose substantially greater, By 1984 the cost of wolf control was about $0.825 million but the value (at supermarket pricers of the time) of the increased meat produced was about $3.4 million – a return of over $4 for every $1 spent. That doesn’t count the value of the fur. That’s just part of the story.
In Denali National park during this period the wolf, moose and caribou populations were low and more or less stable – there was no man caused mortality of any specie.
Nelson – no one lives in a “wilderness” – please look up the definition. People living in rural areas should not be blamed for living in rural areas. Not everyone wants to live in a filthy stinking city. The road that Candice was jogging on has been described as “desolate” – yet there was traffic that came along a short time after the attack. To rural people that is not the definition of “desolate” – I may have 5-10 rigs drive by my house in a day – that is not “desolate”. Just because a road isn’t paved doesn’t mean it “desolate” – nor does it indicate a “wilderness” (where there are no roads.)
Wolves hanging around towns and villages become habituated – lose their fear of people – and thus become dangerous. Blaming the victim so you can feel warm and fuzzy about wolves is what I would call “bullsh*t” – and the propaganda put out that wolves won’t hurt humans is “bullsh*t” and that is what will get the next “victim” hurt or killed.
Its time the pro-wolf people stop denying that wolves will attack people. There have been two documented attacks in the last FIVE years. Where we live in central Idaho we have habituated wolves hanging around our village. Its gotten to the point where we have to carry a gun to take the dogs out in our own yard. The campground down the road from us is full of wolf tracks and elk bones – wanna come camping?
TLM
Do come camping in YOUR Siuslaw National Forest in western Oregon. Clear cuts are beautiful, inviting places. There are no wolves, grizzlies, or wolverine. There are black bear, deer, and elk that might be of interest. There are also lesser known species.such as gophers, bats, voles and moles.
Blackberries might grab and scratch a bit. These are not the native blackberry but larger and more vicious; they are invasive and take over villages if not controlled.. Can you believe that Luther Burbank was responsibe for this irresponsible introduction of non native flora to North America? I have noted some along the Clearwater River in Idaho. These monsters should be contrrolled and not allowed to increase in numbers and overgrow the native vegatation. Some people do enjoy the berries, thus overlooking the long term detrimental effects of this species.
I have never felt warm and or fuzzy about a wolf or that they could not kill a human if so inclined.
Lee – it appears you do not have wolves living around you. When you do, then we can have a discussion. After wolves have attacked or maimed one of your animals, we can talk and compare notes.
We have never had a problem with the numerous other predators we had here already. I have never advocated for wolf eradication, just control. Wolves do not belong living around people. Don’t discount that our native ancestors managed both food animals and predators as they were efficient hunters.
Lee, planting any non native vegetables or other types pf produce in the garden this spring… How about a few non native flowers ?
Greg, I have planted sugar-snap peas, beets, and carrots; have tomatoes started on the bedroom window sill that are about 2 feet tall and getting flowerbud clusters. Just planted some squash seeds in pots that are residing on a window sill in the kitchen. I have not found any of these to be invasive; actually I would rather have the domesticated carrot rather than wild carrot (Queen Ann’s Lace) from Europe; their seeds are awfull in my dogs coat. Since I am very limited on water I raise no summer flowers except native to drier parts of the west annual sunflowers and a couple of luxury cosmos. The deer do not eat either of these so they are outside of my 10′x10′ garden kennel. I have several hundred varieties of narcissus (daffodils) many of my own breeding; one, Lucky Tune, is registered. Reproduction is primarily by bulb division and therefore the stay put except for the ones the gophers move about. Herbivores don’t eat them; they bloom in the spring, and need no tending during the summer; in my opinion the perfect flower.
TLM
One of those vicious blackberries killed a great blue heron here; the heron died with out-stretched wings impaled on the vicious thorns of Himalayan blackberry canes.
Pic, my border collie, is the only animal I have. I don’t want cats munching on native birds nor any livestock messing around in my creeks which have salmon, steelhead, sea-run cutthroat, and rainbow trout or winter ponds – they are for the ducks. geese, turtles, yellowlegs, spotted sandpipers, killdeer, & frogs to name a few.
Lee
You are such an opponent of ‘invasive’ species…
If I’m not mistaken, I believe the BIGGEST beef with the wolf in Idaho is that it is NOT a native species and instead is a much larger wolf.
hmm….
Harely
That is what some would have you believe.
“Description of the 1995 Idaho Wolves
Thirty-one wolves were captured in SW Alberta in December 1994. Fifteen of these were brought to central Idaho and immediately released into the wilds. Fourteen went to Yellowstone. One had an injured leg; was re-released in Alberta. One killed during capture operations
Name given by Idaho School Children, Assigned Number, Color, Alberta Pack, Weight at capture, Age at capture, Current Status. December 2005
Chat-Chaaht “Older Brother” B2M Black & Gray Obed Lake 76 pounds 4-5 years B2 did not join a pack. After 1 1/2 years not located, he was finally found in the Boulder Mountains just above Sun Valley, Idaho in the winter of 1997-8. He had a failing radio collar. Finally in the summer of 2000 he showed up as the alpha male of the new Wildhorse Pack located in the Pioneer Mountains. He was recollared early in 2001. His pack dispersed in 2002. He died from injuries suffered attacking an elk (which he killed) in the late winter of 2004 after pairing with a new female wolf in late 2002 and forming the Castle Peak
Pack.
Akiata B3F Dark Gray and Black n/a 78 pounds 2-3 years Radio Collar long dead. Last visually observed in the Centennial Mountains. Eastern Idaho/Montana border 1998
Kelly B4F Dark Gray Petite Lake 82 pounds 4-5 years After one year killed by a mountain lion east of Missoula, MT
Moonstar Shadow B5M Black and Gray Petite Lake 90 pounds 2-3 years Alpha male Selway Pack. Still broadcasting Jan. 2003. Pack had 6 pups in 2002. Found dead in 2004.
Bee-Yah B6F Black Oldman River 72 pounds adult Original alpha female Landmark Pack. Found dead of unknown cause on Middle Fork of the Salmon. 1998
B7M Gray Oldman River 60 pounds yearling Founder and still the alpha male of the Big Hole Pack. Seen July 2005. Bitterroot Mtns., Montana/Idaho.
Keea B8M Gray Petite Lake 92 pounds adult Original alpha male Landmark Pack. Found dead of unknown cause on Middle Fork of the Salmon. 1998
Hinton1 B9M Gray Rick’s Pack1 94 pounds adult Alpha male Chamberlain Basin Pack. Status unknown because the radio collar failed. Due to the years passed, presumed dead. However, a group of wolves was observed near the Chamberlain airstrip this November (the pack’s usual territory). Among them was a big white (color of old wolves) wolf wearing a dead radio collar. The pack hasn’t had any functioning collars for years. Hinton?
Libre B10F Black Hightower Peak 87 pounds adult Alpha female Selway Pack. Radio collar no longer works. Status unknown.
Blackfire B11F Black Hightower Peak 87 pounds 1-2 years Still alpha female of the Big Hole Pack. Visual identification July 2005. Bitterroot Mountains, Montana/Idaho. 3 pups in 2002. Pack had pups in 2005.
B12M Black Hightower Peak 98 pounds adult Settled in Fish Creek in northern Idaho about five miles north of U.S. Highway 12, but his cut collar was found near Lolo Pass. Believed dead.
B13F Gray Obed Lake 87 pounds 1-2 years Shot illegally two weeks after the 1995 release on Gene Hussey’s Ranch
B14M Gray Robb Pack 101 pounds adult Became the leader of the hard luck native Boulder Pack in west central Montana in 1998, but the pack had pups in 1999 and 2000 and became a very successful pack. When the pack was recollared early in 2001, B14 was gone.
B15F Gray Robb Pack 74 pounds yearling Long time alpha female and founder of Kelly Creek Pack. Her mate was a disperser to Idaho from Montana’s Camas Pack from way back in 1990. Her radio collar failed. Last observed summer of 2002. She was no longer alpha female.
B16F Gray Obed Lake 73 pounds yearling Alpha female Chamberlain Basin Pack. Radio collar failed. Status unknown, presumed dead due to the years passed. ”
The AVERAGE WEIGHT of the 10 wolves listed as adult or greater than two years old is 87 POUNDS.
SW Alberta is where the wolves repopulating N Idaho and NW Montana came from. They arrived on their own four feet.
Take a look at the 1996 Idaho Wolf Table:
http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/wpages/1996idahowolves.htm
Harley
No comment?
I’ve seen the tables. Several times. I’ve seen what you’ve printed. Several times. I’ve also seen reports of people who have seen the wolves. What the hell do I know Lee? I’m just some midwestern yuck who doesn’t know a lot of much. I can only go by what I’ve seen here, both from you and the others. You’re the one with all the answers.
Harley
Sorry to be so slow at responding. I wasn’t aware that you had actually read the wolf weight data previously sent.
I tend to believe data collected at the time rather than opinions of people who claim to have seen a wolf.
Don’t forget there were no monster wolves killed in Idaho or Montana during the 2009-2010 hunting season.
IDAHO Harvested wolves ranged in size from 54 to 127 pounds – males averaged 100 pounds, and females averaged 79 pounds. Of the wolves taken, 58 percent were male, and 15 percent were juveniles less than one year old.
Does this suggest an algebra problem to determine the number of females taken that are juveniles?
The 188 wolves killed during the hunting season from September 1, 2009 and March 31, 2010 in Idaho had an average weight under 100 pounds according to Jon Rachael IDFG. The largest wolf killed was in Boundary County just south of the Canadian border where the wolves arrived by their own four feet. It appears to me from the data that none of those monster wolves are present in central or any other part of Idaho.
Lee, the “official” reports are about as screwed as any individual report could be if they were all reported by drunks sitting around the still…For an example, here in north central Florida, there have been no “official” sightings for the Florida panther. I have never seen one, myself, but know many others who I would trust to the truth, who have seen them….Now, I came upon a panther track one day and reported it to the local Fish and Game, and the biologist in residence. He told me there were none in the area and when I told him I had just seen tracks myself, he accused me of seeing bobcat tracks….That galled me since bobcat tracks are so much smaller they pale in comparison..I told him I could take him there and show him, but he was unwilling to go, and then lectured me as to how to take a casting of the track, as if I had never done that! (I used to have a collection I had made) I am convinced that had I taken him the tracks he would simply discarded them and claimed I was lying…The arrogance of the elite is often their undoing. But to this day, there was only one “reported” case of a panther, and that was one that was taken by animal control and was never determined genetically to be a genuine panther, at least to the press….even after it was captured!
Jes has a point. ‘Data’ would tell us that there are no cougars in the midwest, however, numerous sightings and a dead cougar, killed by Chicago police no less 2 years ago this month would kinda tell you that yes… there are cougars here in the midwest…
Wow and let me tell you the uproar there was!
‘Why did the cop have to shoot the poor helpless defenseless lion who was WAY outa his territory in the middle of the city! Bad cops, bad…’
Harley
Cougar have legs and can travel. I would not be surprised if they turned up in places they had not previously been reported.
http://www.easterncougarnet.org/bigpicture.html
If you believe that there are monster big wolves in Idaho it is obvious you will accept no evidence I provide. I have sent data on the wolves indroduced into Idaho – the largest of which was 135 pounds, came from NE BC, was released at Daggar Falls on the MF Salmon River in 1996, and was the largest of all the introduced wolves, including Yellowstone. Also, information from the IDFG regarding the wolves killed during the 2009 – 2010 hunting season.
Believe what you want.
Although I appreciate the passionate response to this tragic post, I don’t know that we should be so worried about the poor, defenseless wolves.
We are the stewards over the land and the life on it. I think we need to be more judicious about transplanting species and hunting restrictions. We are players in regulating wild populations as much as food or water is.
We shouldn’t be ignorant in our treatment of the life around us– especially predators. We should have the opportunity to live in a safe environment.
If, however, we begin to raise a housing development in the middle of the (probably reduced) territory of another animal/predator, we need to recognize that we are the intruders.
http://www.adn.com/2010/05/21/1288936/child-killed-after-wandering-into.html
JTM, you are, as I suspected, trying to diminish the death of a beautiful young woman from WOLVES, by insinuating they were neighborhood DOGS! Don’t go there, you diminish yourself!
Jes, I’m thinking that ‘sled dogs’ are pretty darn close to wolves, right? The closest we have in a domesticated breed to a wolf?
I’m not sure what point JTM was trying to make, I hope that’s not the case because it’s very clear that it was a wolf, not a sled dog that killed Candice.
JTM, why the link? I’m trying not to assume the worst of your posting.
I think JTM is the infamous Jon from the Maughnite blog.
Jon…. isn’t too bad, it’s that other asswipe I can’t stand. The one who tacks an E at the end of his identity
jeffy – Oh yea I know him. He makes a lot of false claims about me. Jon might be alright but he relies on the works of others rather than doing his own digging..
“JTM, why the link? I’m trying not to assume the worst of your posting.”
Harley, just keeping you folks informed, more about life in Alaska.
Also, should have supplied the link to this too, did you hear – six wolves became road kill on the main drag out of Anchorage this winter. There were no recorded attacks on humans or dogs in that area. That’s where several dogs were snatched and killed by wolves from near their owners while walking on trails in the woods a few winters ago.
Have you seen the necropsy report on the wolves assumed to have killed Candice Berner? I have not – I have been watching for it – I do not believe it has been completed and released to the public; but would like to see it if you have a reference.
I agree, it appears most likely she was killed by wolf or wolves. The case may be clinched if the dna from one or both wolves killed near the village matches that found on her corpse. There were free roaming village dogs at Chignik Lake at the time of and after her death; and as far as I know there still are.. Everyone I have spoken with up here with even the slightest knowledge of these matters agrees she could have been killed by dogs. That includes two law enforcement professionals with long term experience in Alaska village law enforcement and statewide wildlife law enforcement.
Candice Berner’s death was a tragedy on many fronts, for sure.
No I am not “Jon” and I’ve never been to the site you’ve referenced, Mr Farber.
Jes, crawl back in your hole and try critical thinking exercises for a while. your logic is severely flawed. Ad hominem attacks never get to the truth.
Why, JTM, I have the feeling you don’t like me!!! Yet you can keep asserting your implications that this is a dog attack, in between offhand agreements that it “APPEARS most likely”….that’s a crock! Talk about flawed logic! Next you put your spin on it that all your SUPPOSEDLY ” professional and well informed contacts agree it is likely a dog attack….HO-BOY!
Crawling out from under your basement, again, JTM?
And I thought you were going to wait until you had some “EVIDENCE” before you returned…..
Is this the kind of evidence we can expect from your brand of “professionals”???
I always called it hearsay!
jes, My implications are and have been this may have been a dog attack, this may not have been a wolf attack. “could have been” (What I said) is not even remotely equivalent to “is likely” (what you distorted it into), Your reading comprehension is weak at best or you are purposefully lying.
JTM, just what are your implications worth? Certainly more than the evidence accumulated at the crime scene, according to you…..and only you! I will leave your “implications” along with your hearsay, back in your lap…..I wonder just who is trying diminish the truth here with your “Ad hominem” attacks?
Your “village dogs” is just another attempt to divert the truth of what wolves can and will do when the opportunity arises. And perhaps the next life that is lost might mean more to you than Candice Berner, but I doubt it… I think you are just another slimy liberal who values wolves more than humans….and is looking to shift the blame away from wolves, your god and idol figure….
jes, I’d love to see some of your “science” work. Can you provide citations to your published work?
A rational person faced with an incompletely explained observation will consider all alternative explanatory hypotheses and attempt to weigh the likelihood of each on the basis of evidence – w/o preconceived notions or “parental” attachments. Sometimes the differentiation is unequivocal; sometime it is rather fuzzy. In fuzzy cases one attempts to gather more evidence (in science this would usually involve performing additional experiments, gathering more data where feasible, etc) Only after all alternative hypotheses have been given as thorough an airing as is practically possible should one make a decision between them. Still, such decisions are susceptible to overthrow after future scrutiny in light of newly developed evidence. This is the process by which science has brought humans on Earth from roaming the land and camping cold and damp in caves to the standard of living some folks on the planet enjoy today. It is how continued progress will be made going forward into the future. It is the only honest way to progress from ignorance to less ignorance.
You, apparently, wish to impugn the credibility of the professionals I cited. I can guarantee, were a dog or dogs from the village to come under suspicion and be implicated in this unfortunate death, were the case go to trial – say to prosecute the dog owner(s) for wrongful death or other crime or to collect civil damages resulting from negligence; these people and numerous others in Alaska would be acceptable in the court to provide expert testimony in support of the truth of what dogs can and will do to humans when the opportunity arises. Not as to what the particular dogs in the case DID, but what they could have done, were the defense to question the possibility.
Though I have not heard or read accounts of it all, I have not discounted any evidence collected at the “crime scene.” I trust the police to have done a reasonably thorough job considering the conditions prevailing. I might point out that were they fully convinced of the attackers’ identities they would not have sent to bodies to the lab for necropsy. And, I fully expect, if the dna evidence comes back not to be supportive of the hypothesis that one of both of the dead wolves was involved in the crime scene in some way, they will say so.
Where, in what I have written, do you find any suggestion that I am not fully aware of “what wolves can and will do when the opportunity arises?” Or, that I have any problem with eliminating problem wolves – those that harm humans or their property or present unacceptable levels of predation on other wild resources? That I value wolves more than I value humans? Every effort to make a point in your last paragraph fails in light of the evidence. Just so much ranting. It doesn’t deserve any further comment.
“What Appears As “Is”, May Not Be .
“What Appears As “Isn’t”, May Be.
“Knowledge To Some, Is To Others, An Abyss.
“To Probe That Abyss, Is To Set One Free.”
Don’t forget the citations!
Here we go again Another Evolutionary Epistemology, ” RATIONAL” Language and Culture liberal attacker with a – a Non-Adaptationist Systems Theoretical Approach. HA HA.. I read that shit to. Dontcha just love that classical philosophy ? The notion of what a rational person would think is a curious one…… argument and evidence. But does rational always include logical, or logic ? The significant difference between the two words appears to be that Logical is derived from experience and Rational is derived from intellect. Please continue JTM while I analyze you searching for a combination of both rational logic spiced up with some intellectual value, my god the liberal normally attempts to harassing us is and incredibly stupid bore.. Sounds like you’ve been reading Nathalie Gontier, or a little to much Darwinian Religiosity for sure, from other sources, Peter Phelan, Peter Reynolds perhaps, toss in some Abnormal Psychology Journals, ahh gosh you must think you’re a whiz kid..Honestly I think the evolutionary approach to accidental creation, coincidence if you will, has more warehoused paper and ink bullshit than Congressional Records..And that is some pile of bull shit now let me tell ya..
Greg
Jon and JTM write in a very different style and do not seem to share the same attitude toward wildlife issues – you and Si’vet are more likely the some person than they are.
Both of you are from the Fairfield Bench, Idaho and went to Jim Beers’ gathering in Bozeman. Did you car pool?
I agree JTM is a far more interesting subject and challenging persona than Jon. that was and irrational illogical emotionless assumption on my part, of course I was fishing. My personal affairs concerning extra curricular activities outside of what I am willing to give up are none of your damn business. But feel free to get Si’Vet banned from the communist irrational illogical Marxist Priest Maughan blog if you so desire, which is the obvious intent by fishing for more info connecting us up in that wild imagination of yours.
Greg
You certainly are overly concerned about the goings on at the ” communist irrational illogical Marxist Priest Maughan blog”. You seem to spend a lot of time there keeping up on what is happening and reporting to others at the BBB regarding comments made there.
Why would I want to have Si’Vet banned ? Heshe seems, like you, to be an intelligant, knowledgeable person with some opinions that are of interest to some readers including me.
Why hasn’t anyone addressed the facts about tracks in the snow. My understanding is there were fresh wolf tracks at the scene. If village dogs were involved there would be tracks in the snow leading back to the village from where the dogs came or is this too logical.
I learned it is wise to watch ones enemy’s. I do enjoy reading saves bears.. Mark Gamblin, and the silent now Wilderness Muse.. I have over 300 book marks, and 14 blogs I watch and participate in. The thing that amazes me is some of your ilk bitch about government errors, but when others of my ilk do it, we are birther tea bagging black shirted anti government militia fascist KKK rascist hate mongering confederate flag flying right wing crazies.. See Hoskins, and thank him for me because he makes me laugh hysterically.
Honestly Jes, I don’t think JTM is one of ‘them’ so to speak. I just don’t get that feel from what he writes. Maybe because I’m trying to look for the positive here but I just don’t get it. Not like I did from the other ones. I never got that feel from T-bone either.
Harley, Lee;.
I’m not a “virgin” on internet forums. I’m well acquainted with trolls etc. Those fellers can leave their marks at any height they can manage – won’t make any difference to me.
Now, I’m gone, again, until the next time.
JTM, Never thought you were a troll. I found it interesting what you had to say since you are an Alaskan native. I don’t pee on trees….
I am a high marker..
Lee,
T-bone/Si’vet are the same he.
I only wish my spelling, grammar and pronuciation were as good as Greg’s.
I also wish Greg and I shared the same success archery hunting mule deer.
But thanks for the compliment, wondered why my nose itched.
T,
I think we should change that archery history then dontcha think man ? Screw the queens English I always say.. Holy Poper I’m tired, I’ve a seven week old Yeller Lab clinging to me again and he needs to go every couple hours around the clock.. I was shocked with him as gift recently. He is wearing me down.. T, I used to train labs to hunt deer.. Great deer dog, don’t tell no one though, I hear tell the Queen does not approve of it.. Silly bitch.
T,
” intelligant ” is actually a put down, third level status under ” actually intelligent ” humans.. trailer house trash, buck toothed hicks, with sun burned necks.. Not fully evolved, but tolerable..
Greg
Never offer a muley fanatic a little help with success, you may find him sleeping on the front porch, tripping over him when you take the dog out.
PS: good choice of dogs, can’t beat a lab. I trained them serious for about 30 yrs. When you have good dogs you never run out of invitations to go hunting.
And before any one else takes offense, I like ALL retrievers. It’s just Jack Russell Terrorists that drive me crazy.
I want a puppy damnit…
Harley. today is your lucky day. I have 2 dogs that are puppish. They will chew the crap out of everything, they aren’t really housebroken, they will wake you up at night for no good reason, bite the neighbor kids and are spoiled to the max. Did I mention purebreds. 400$ at any pet store, this is a one time offer, Free shipping to any where in our solar system, and a crisp 100$ dollar bill secured to their collars. Both our prayers will have been answered.
What an offer! Only a fool would turn that down! But…. alas, I live with my mother and dogs are strictly forbidden. Along with anything furry and cute or I would have had something by now. Her house, her rules, even though I am an adult woman with 2 kids. Need to find my own place….
Ok Harley my “final offer” 200$ under each collar, and I gurantee, in less than 3 weeks you will have your own place. If your mom hasn’t moved out in 3 weeks I will send you another 200$.
fine print: all sales final, there are no similarities to these JRT’s and the ones you might see on milk cartons or America’s most wanted. any communication there in voids warranty, all sales final.
OMG, living with mummy then girl ! Now that rates Intelligant also, welcome to the third level under the evolved gods among us Harley..
T, I am fully aware of the total swollen neck frothing mouth eyes bugging out status of the mentally insane huge mossy horn monster buck hunter.. I think I spotted one on the last full moon.. a couple more screws and sheet metal, model rocket engines, and I think I;ll be ready for launch.. Step into my rocket ship..
LMFAO… Sound like bear chasin hounds to me..
No just momma chasin hounds… moved in after the divorce, helped care for my father, now I’m caring for her.
Hey found this link…
http://cbs4denver.com/local/wolves.colorado.wolf.2.1712014.html
I particularly like the line by one guy…
Officially wolves were wiped out in Colorado nearly 70 years ago but their return became possible after the re-introduction of this endangered species in Yellowstone National Park.
“We knew they would be coming to Colorado. Wolves are consummate dispersers; we say in biology that they get around,” explains Michael Soule, an evolutionary expert also helping the team.
If Wolves are such the consummate dispensers, why didn’t they wait for them to dispense on their own?
Greg, are you a bear hunter, just asking in case, for some crazy reason Harley, isn’t interested in winning the lottery. Anything smaller than 7′ the hide wouldn’t be worth much. How about one suckling little scrawny yellow lab for 2 prize winning, ready to go fully untrained JRT’s.
Harley
So why can’t you have one?
Mom’s dead set against any kind of pet. Not sure if it’s the not wanting a pet or a need to control something, she’s been like that most her life. Either way, it’s her roof I reside under so her rules I must abide. I have a feeling though my circumstances will be changing soon for the better.
Damn
Got to go JRT’s owner just drove up.
No JRT’s for me please.. I know all about those rascally beasts..
Last night heard a howling tpye scream that got closer and closer to my farm, when it sounded like it was near I yelled at the top of my lungs to get gone, the howling screaming continued. I drove to the horse pasture and noted all mares and colts calm, all screaming howling was silient. Then the horses spooked at something. I have never witness my mares leave thier colts behind, all hell broke lose. Apparently they saw something I did not. The mares quicky collected thier foals and took off in a stampeed. I lowered the fence and drove in, Scary, however I saw nothing and never heard a peep there after. Last year I seen these wolf coyote hybrids, and they are the size of a German Sheperd. I am sure that it was them, but I have never heard the scream before? That screaming / howling has me still shook up. If you will recall I had trouble last year. What is that screaming and what does it mean?
Sounds like a panther, cougar, mountain lion, depending on where you’re from…
I’ve lived in lion country all my life and have been on more lion hunts than I can remember and i even had one as a pet for awhile but I can’t say I ever heard one make a howling scream sound not to say it couldn’t just never heard that type of sound out of one. If a lion was after your mares and colts I doubt it would announce it was coming.
Yup, Jim, there’s a considerable difference betwixt a howl and a scream, think we have to consider one or the other, because I just can’t picture both!
A black bear is known to scream like a woman.
Unless you’ve got wolves moving in, howling, and they catch a fawn, then you’ll hear some screaming from that poor fawn, as it screams for it’s life…while wolves are ripping out it’s intestines.
Perhaps you should consult with Action Jackson, ex Neo Nazi Yellow Rock Park Ranger extraordinaire, now retired, claims officially to have heard and watched Big foot, in Yellow Rock National Zoo and paved parkway, more than once.. I hear tell them Big Foot Critters scream, howl, and even occasionally throw rocks. Action Jackson frequents the Marxist blog operated by priest Maughan and Western Weirdos Project. I reckon them communist dope smoking liberal freaks when not crying over fluffy, the new pack pet for commies, felt sorry for this old Nazi and allowed him to spew his superior intellectuality amongst their fellow elk hating idiots.. One last thought, this ex park ranger is and admitted anti hunting activist.. We did it all wrong since the the 1930s according to Action Big mouth Jackson.. Gawd I need my dark chocolate now..
Ya know it coulda been T-bone a walking past your place with two JRTs – Jack Russell Terrorists by the neck… Ya know those worthless little dogs some people think are cool..
Dang, Greg, I done fergot about thet thar bigfeet feller, bet thet would rase the curl on my skebies! Yer reckon Action wil sho me thet ther call so’s I’s ken call me upen thet ter skunk ape bac in tha gum swamp?
I reckon so Jes, we need a couple billion for SasCrack Research and reintroduction..We could pull some dna samples off one of them fake apeman crosses the evilutionists tried to defraud us with way back when.. I shore am glad the stupid morons became a little better at scientific fraud as of late.. Easier to separate the dumbs from the wisers thata way.. Oh heck, as i typed this i thought i saw and big foot running across my yard chasing my yellow lab….hold on, hold on.. Awe shucks it was just my old lady, looks like ranger is teaching her to fetch to me.. Hope he has better luck than I did at that trick..
I thought I saw me one of them Bigfoots one time but it turned out to be one of them wolfie watchers with a fake fur coat on looking for wild hickory nuts.
It did sound like a woman screaming or a party, but there was no party!!! My nieghbor sat with me at the fit pit and listened for almost two hours, and then it sounded real close. You could also hear howling at times. We both agreed it sounded like a woman screaming, yet clearly was not. I am assuming it was brush wolves coyote hybrids as I have clearly seen them here before. My nieghbor was alot more creepped out by this then me. I have seen big cats here in NW MN, but not often, and it did not have the same sound as you hear big cats on TV. The pitch of the screaming was very high, almost human sounding.
Nieghbor has wolf photo on trail cam, no need to look for big foot the wildlife here is much scarier. DNR introducted more problem bears here as well, DNR called to see how much trouble we have had with them as the DNR knows through collaring that they spent time in our corn field ajacant to cow/ horse pasture. Only bear problem I had was the one that chased me around my house but then climbed into pickup box and ate grain. However one showed up three weeks ago, eight miles away in local town and was hanging out by local daycare, DNR told local police to shot, as they could not get there quick and the bear was aggressivly charging… But yeah I’ll waste my time worrying that Big foot may come eat my calves, colts, or kids….
Bobcats have a scream, as well. Maybe in a fight with coyotes/coydogs.. I had a bobcat follow me through the thickets down in the Florida swamps. I was clearly following me and screaming as it kept getting closer. After a couple of hours, I was getting pretty unnerved, and the bobcat was getting closer. The woods were so thick, I would have never seen it unless it was already on me. I was lucky to find an old treestand that was still stable enough to climb and sit on. After waiting for it to show up for another hour or two, the howling finally quit and I figured he must have known he couldn’t get me up that tree without catching a .30-30 between the eyes….The only reason I could figure was he must have been rabid, but not enough to completely lose all his sense…
That was about the most unnerving experience I have had for a good number of years….
About 6 years ago there was a critter call from the direction of the creek that woke us up. It sounded like a wild animal or “crazy person”. It continued for several minutes. The next morning I checked out animal calls on the computer and found one that I thought matched; my husband came over and said “that’s it”!; my dog concurred by getting up and barking at the computer – she had never done that before nor has she since. It was one of several cougar calls given on an internet animal sound library. I have heard bobcats here and this sounded different from their calls and like a much larger animal.
Jes thaT DOES NOT SOUND LIKE A FUN EXPERIENCE AT ALL… We have had bob cats here, I don’t worry about them normally, however your situation would scare the heck out of me. What we heard could have been a bob cat, but gut instinct tells me wolves. In the past I have had horses tore up, but looking at the wounds I would say bear or big cat. The DNR says there is no mountain lions here, but I have seen two, and many others claim they have seen them. In NW MN we do have wolves taking out beef cattle, packs as big as 22. I was born in NW MN and growing up here, there was nothing to fear. I rode bike all the time, all you would ever see is a fox. I was always told you would rarley incounter or even hear one of the big predatures, and they were more scared of you, then you are of them. Over the last ten years I have started yelling Bull Sh*t. As commom sense tells me to be careful and watch my surrounding close. I personally believe that the DNR has released problem bears, wolves, and mountain lions here, and that the carefree outdoor life that I had as a kid growing up here, is long gone. I do like wild life, just not so close…
Lee – Maybe
Chris, You said you had horses tore up in the past. What were the wounds like meaning where on the horse were the wounds? This can make a difference of what type of predator attacked them.
Wounds on the yearling filly that I bought and was not part of a breeding herd, were that the whole side of the animal was ripped open from shoulder to hip. Happened June of 2001. In March of 2003, a high dollar two yr old filly was ripped open in the same fashion but the right front shoulder was ripped open jagged, the opening was the size of a dinner plate, lots of cords, vet said she may never be correct, however come out with just nasty scars. Also claw marks on the top of the hips on both animals, about four to six inches in length, the claw marks numbered four on both fillys, being quarter horses( bull dog type). At this point my herd is well established and buddied up with one another, and consists of parent and adult child raising thier foals together, as a result much more protective of one another.
Another woman told me her horse had the same injuries and also thought they came from a couger??
Claw marks on the hips more likely than not were made by a black bear. A lion as a rule will go for the head and neck area.
I find on average six to eight lion killed elk on my place every winter and of those 90% are bulls and I have yet to find one that didn’t have bite marks at the base of the skull where it joins the spine.
My fillies both survived…
Right now I am more concerned with bear/wolves as there is abundance of them, a couger attack if at all would be less likely. Moreover, we do have at least a small poulation of couger. One of the cougers I seen was at Lake Bronson 1999, and it was a juvinelle (half grown). One leap, it was on the yellow line, the next leap it was gone in the grass, it had a very long tail and I figured it must have parents. The other one was sitting on the railroad tracks near the back of my pasture (2007), it had one kitten sitting next to it. Many seen this animal as it was next to a well traveled US Highway.
My point is…nothing is really as it seems, and well educated people are being told there is no harm, thier buying into this, and putting themselves at risk. The woman that lost her life was oviously well educated, a teacher. Hopefully she will provide a lesson to other well educated ones that have no clue what it is like to live in areas with high populations of wolves, bear, ect. College education is a great asset, but this lesson is not taught on campus, people need to experience what it is like dealing with this burden, before making a vote or raising thier voice. I watch by back, my kids, and livestock, and if alone in the woods, always locked and loaded ready to rock and roll. Never on foot in the dark away from the yard, I always have the protection of a truck and/or have a gun. God bless this gal and her family…
Well put, Chris! Good to hear your input.
Last night Minnesota had a outbreak of tornatos, 30 something. I think the death toll is three and the damage in areas is absolute devestation. My family was also in the warning area, we took shelter as we were informed the storm was close. We did not get hit, we were lucky.
When there is rotation in the cloulds our government thru media warns us, why is our government failing warning us about dangerous wildlife?
Chris
It is good to hear that the death toll from such a series of tornados was not higher. Probably those public warnings saved some lives.
Perhaps you missed paragraph number two on the original post above which is a quote from Candice: “Chignik Lake’s mascot is a wolf and it sits in the lobby of the school. It’s a great reminder of what lurks outside in the wilderness and to be on the alert at all times.” So apparently she did have a clue; but was perhaps not alert to the dangers of which she spoke.
Everyone should be aware that wildlife can be dangerous. Name one large ungulate or carnivore that has not killed a person in the USA or Canada.
Comparing the immediate possibility of death by a tornado (hurricane , flood, volcanic eruption, tsunami) in an area that can affect many people is very different than cautioning people about the possible threat, at some unknown time in the future, about a dangerous encounter with a wild animal.
Lee, at least no one person or group went forth proclaiming tornado’s, hurricane’s, floods, volcanic eruption, and tsunami only cull the sick and weak people, and never bother the healthy people.. Or claimed those acts of nature balance society..
Greg good point..
I don’t mean that the warning system be exactly the same as a tornato warning. However, a site where report of incidents (USA wide) and a place for people to blog reports. In problem areas a press release could go out to announce warning or watch areas of any type of problem animal.
Bless her soul, but Candice did not get the message, as if she did she would not have been where she was alone unprotected.
Chris,
Candice left a really cool blog.I don’t have the link any more though. I think she ‘knew’ that there was dangerous animals around. But maybe she just didn’t really know? I think that sometimes we’ve been lulled into this false sense of security that wolves don’t go after people. Wolves only go after the sick and the weak. In actuality, wolves are opportunists. At least that’s what I’m perceiving. I could be totally wrong, I’m from the city and I rely on what I read, what people tell me and formulate my own opinion. I’ve always been told wolves will leave a human alone. But this incident in Alaska makes me seriously re-evaluate that. I know Lee will tell me that moose and deer are also capable of attacking and killing a person. I think though the main difference is that a wolf is capable of intentionally stalking it’s prey and pouncing on them unannounced. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a dee or moose doing that, though I could be wrong. I don’t have information to back it up, but I’m kinda thinking that most encounters with moose or deer is more of stumbling upon them during a rut or heat. Again, I am no expert. But Moose and Deer do not need to stalk their prey. They don’t rely on the element of surprise.
She was alone running for her work out, I bet it helped the wolves to react. Same reaction which occurs with the cougar chasing cyclists or runners, this could happen any where with the timing being perfect like it was with this situation. The only answer for this is to seriously manage wolves back into real wilderness areas away from settled rural settings.. We remove cougars and bears for safety reasons, why are wolves so special, their not, their not even endangered.
Greg
Did you ever check into how wild this area is? If this is not real wilderness than there is none.
Look up how many wolves and bears of 2 species are in the area,
The wolf is more intelligent than bears or cougars, the wolf uses a strategy including team work while hunting, I’ve watched them doing it, reminds me of watching border collies working cattle or sheep, must be how man got the idea to train dogs maybe., Hell Geist writes about it, the problem is the other side of this debate are not listening. The wolf has tried to make me run while I have been backpacking, they gave up, the wolf has surrounded my camp in the night howling and barking, the wolf has tried to make my horses or mules run, I ride a Tennessee Walking paint, Quarter Cross, pony one to three mules, they are not going to run either, they’ll fight.. They will stomp a dog. BUT what I have experienced is while riding into or out of deep back country a wolf pack will try and break us up, causing us to run in different directions. I am top horseman and my crew are a tight, I just stop moving and face the wolves down. The decimation of the prey base is a reality, the wolves are expanding their prey base slowly, just as Geist foretold us they would do.. Now I used to run some of this country myself, I used to run a 17 mile loop trail in the Sawtooths in under five hours, so I was easy pickens during those years if we would of had wolves then, at least to the population capacity which we now have, I have also noticed the wolf explosion seems to be tapering off a bit. No prey base, no predator base, no balance. That is what I see now.. So these wolves watched Candice running past them, she never saw them, they pursued and took her down, she knew what was happening, but could not stop it.. For the life of me I’ll never understand the love affair with these things, nor the accusations of hatred either, this boils down to a difference of opinions, people lying, stealing funds, and using this wold animal for political gain.. Sickening..
What is the areas legal classification ? Is it in a wilderness ? Or national park ? The same could be claimed for places in Idaho.. Jogging down the road near Yellowpine, Lowman, Idaho City.. Same thing.
Wilderness is and opinion. Lewis and Clark had and opinion, so did Jedediah Smith.. Alaska surely has some real wilderness, Idaho, don’t be silly.
Wolves and other canines, even including dogs, are intelligent enough to recognize prey from non-prey. Prey will run and panic and scatter, and not stand and fight. Most wild animals are not prone to fight, unless they protect their young, or feel cornered and are fighting for survival…They risk injury from combat, and one slight wound can maim or cripple, or even just slow down the speed with which they need to catch prey to survive. With any injury, they are at the threshold of starving, simply because they can not catch or keep up with the prey or their pack or herd..
The criminals of our society are the same mentality..They look for the weak, infirm, or those that panic, and they are the first choice…but if desperate enough, any port in a storm or anything available will do…When wolves become hungry enough, and are close enough to encounter man, woman or child, they are going to do the same thing…It is only a matter of time before it becomes frequent enough for the public to become aware of it…and then, perhaps only then, will we get off our asses and do something about it!
I can’t recall a herd of moose or deer killing cattle ,sheep and the family pet or eating another animal alive on the hoof or taking chunks of meat out of others and leave them to die a slow a terrible death.
And I haven’t herd of any deer or moose eating a person lately. Of course there are those out there who think grass and twigs and a bale of hay can feel pain as well. The only way to stop this onslaught of wolves is with a well placed bullet to the lungs and instill the fear of man back into them and they will seek out there own wilderness and learn again to avoid humans.
Well, the reason I said that was because one time I said something about wolves or predators being dangerous, Lee pointed out that people are also killed by deer and moose. I think her point was that ALL wild animals are capable of hurting or killing. My main point is that dee and moose don’t stalk you and hunt you down in a coordinated attack.
Harley,
I understood your comment and realize you were responding to Lee’s. My point is you can’t compare a meat eating wolf with a grass eater as far as being dangerous as Lee does. Not that moose and deer are not capable of killing or hurting someone only that there is no comparison.
I hear ya Jim! lol I remember reading what Lee said and I just was like… um… ok…
I’m sure Lee knows the difference as well, Jim, but the fact is, is that she would like to “defend” the wolf against any and all possible reasons to fear him, or hate him or simply wants to discourage and impede any and all reasons for killing him, whatever rational and moral reasons there are! Perhaps the real reason is that she really has no “moral” reasons for anything…..(at least no moral ground with any God in it…except the god of expediency…)
Noah Websters 1828 Dictionary
wilderness
WILDERNESS, n. [from wild.]
1. A desert; a tract of land or region uncultivated and uninhabited by human beings, whether a forest or a wide barren plain. In the United States, it is applied only to a forest. In Scripture, it is applied frequently to the deserts of Arabia. The Israelites wandered in the wilderness forty years.
2. The ocean.
The watry wilderness yields no supply.
3. A state of disorder. [Not in use.]
4. A wood in a garden, resembling a forest.
Just got the news paper Norhtern Watch Vol. 20 Number 25 Saturday June 19, 2010 http:/www.nwatch.com
The front page reads “Bear and Cubs seen in St. Hilaire” Says the bear and cubs left on thier own accord, and that at one point the kids were trapped in the park as the bear was between the exit and the kids. Dnr says there are numerous collared bears north of this area. What a surprise!!!! Also says this was the second time in a little over a month that a black bear has been spotted. On May 11, a bear was roaming Newfolden. Since the DNR was not close by, the Sherrif office tried to chase the bear out of the area, but it would not leave, and started showing aggression, the sherrif killed bear.
Funny how this was down played, I heard the bear was hanging around the daycare, and pose threat. The bear in Newfolden was not in the paper till now?
I just think people need better warning, yet not freaking them out…
Dammit, if they would a just give it a kid to GOBBLE UP it woulda left the area until next time, I swear to Darwin I’m really pissed now…
Evolutionary, Greg! It’s getting to be that way, is it not?
Harley
jes supplied the link to Candice Berners web a long time ago it is http://cberner.blogspot.com/
A repeat from before: by a peron whose comment got smothered by latter posts; it wil undoubtly happen again; go for it Greg, and jes.
Dave on March 13th, 2010 1:40 pm
“I am a hunter and some hunters actually like wolves. I happen to be one of the few it seems. Wolves are carnivores. They don’t shop at the butcher counter in grocery stores. They kill creatures in the wild in order to obtain food. Wolves will eat rodents as small as mice, and will bring down caribou, elk, and moose. They are cautious around humans, but it is not entirely outlandish to rule out an attack on a human if they are hungry and easier prey is not available. They are beautiful, intelligent, and fascinating creatures, but they are wild carnivores and we cannot fault them for doing what wild carnivores do.”
I don’t think people are necessarily ‘faulting’ them for what they do Lee. I don’t think there are many who truly ‘hate’ the wolf. But I do think that we have been lulled into a false sense of security by the statistics out there about wolf attacks on people. I know before I started visiting this site that I was more afraid of bears and cougars than a wolf. Now I’m pretty sure I would afford them all EQUAL respect in what they can and can’t do. And please, I know they are wild animals. And I know that a wild animal, any wild animal, should be given proper respect for that they can and can not do.
People also should not fault ranchers for wanting to protect what is theirs. After all, they are only doing what they do and that is ranch, right?
Lee~
Sorry, thanks for the link for Candice’s blog. Meant to thank you for that!
Just went a replaced the card in my trail cam today. Bulls and cows look pretty good, but there are only 2 calves out of 7 cows. Now if these calves were conceived on my property and born on my property shouldn’t that give me the right to protect them from wolves on my property? If a mexican child is born on u.s. soil they become citizens of the U.S.A. right? If a calf is conceived and born on my property then it should make it my calf? I know I’m reaching but I sure hate to loose the only two calves I have. The pack seems to come thru about every 3 or 4 weeks so their due back thru in a couple of weeks. Might just have a suprise for them this time. damn elk maggots anyway.
Itroducing wolves from Canada to Wyoming, Idaho and Montana is like putting Piranha’s into a fish bowl and then wondering why they ate all the goldfish.
Well I’ll tell you why because they are just doing what Piranha’s do
So to those of you who say Wolves are just doing what they do, Why in the world would you want to bring them here knowing they are going to do what they do. Again I,ll tell you why. BECAUSE YOU WANT TO STOP ALL HUNTING.
Lee and Dave, I actually like wolves, myself. They are great predators, They eat all the deer and elk so I don’t have to hunt so hard, in fact, I don’t have to hunt at all, since there’s nothing left to hunt. The wolves are a much better hunter than me, so I’m quitting, since that is what you want, isn’t it? We can watch and see these poor creatures starve while we watch pretty videos on TV. Then, when all but the most remote deer and elk are laying on the ground as wolf scat, we can take bets on the odds of ever seeing any more….We can make up a video game and pretend the earth is covered with lambs and lions, lying down with each other, eating grass, while we watch the oil turn the gulf into a river of blood……now, how much more fun is that?
The worst enemy the wolf has is you Lee..
They are magnificent to watch, I’ve had seven of them standing around me at twenty feet, we were just staring at one another, my hand on my pistol, a pack frame with and elk hind and back strap on it on my back. Those curious looks are always with me.. The times I’ve had eye contact with em on the trail, sitting in the saddle, three mules beside me glaring at them, that look of challenge, defiance, fear, all rolled into one gaze.. The wolf is a dog and we all know dogs are cowards, that is why they look for the weakness, in a healthy animal, or human, one weakness is fear, they smell it.. This war is not about the wolf Lee, it is time you grew up lady and faced up to the truth, this is about removing me from the settled and used back country lands falsely called wilderness, this is and attack on my way of living, my life, a life more in tune with nature than yours is. People tell people like you the truth of what they see which does not fit with the government science, predictions, or estimations, and you call us uneducated liars filled with hatred for a wolf dog.. I used to believe in those lies to Lee, so did Rockholme. Now we know the truth, and the truth is decimation of a resource we hunters paid to build up, and now we find out we also are paying for their destruction, included in this destruction are the wolf population along with cougars and bears. Lady, I hope you live to be 105.. You’ll face it then, you’ll never admit fault though.. Integrity is just not part of your makeup. The number one reason you reply here is to shove the knife in deeper. You represent failure, you represent a censored closed forum blocking truth. You represent arrogance, conceit, you even represent hatred yourself..
What Did You Learn In School Today – Pete Seeger [21/24]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWE6seINeoE
Regarding the statement We can not fault them for what carnivors do..
Maybe you can’t, but I certainly can. Carnivores have free will, attacking a human, livestock, pet is a choice that some carnivors make and some do not.
However, my choice would be to keep all dangerous carnovires in the wild in moderation, therefore limiting the risk of fatality’s/damages to human’s,livestock, and pets.
Why would you say we can not fault carnivores for what they do, and then want thier population to increase knowing exactly what they will do. Then what you turn around and say, We’ll it’s not thier fault they are carnivores and that’s what they do.
So who’s fault is it then? YOURS????
Chris
“Regarding the statement We can not fault them for what carnivors do.” To whom are you speaking? I can find no reference in the above comments related to this. Perhaps elsewhere?
Why did your god create woves in particular and carnivores in general with pointy teeth and short intestines that are only good for consuming and processing mostly flesh and few herbs. Had your omnipotent god wanted the lion and lamb to lie in the same field she would have created them in a different mold.
Anthropomorphism in the extreme: “carnivores have free will”? What an absurd statement.
Lee, you’re slipping gears…..YOU’RE the one who quoted “we cannot fault them for what carnivores do”.(June 19th, 2010 11:38 pm) when you quoted Dave
Maybe your uncapitalized “god” is a female worry wart…..with a short memory!
See what evolution does to your memory. Maybe Lee’s just hasn’t evolved yet.
Not to mention marginalizing the GREATEST CREATING SCIENTIST IN THE Heavens watching this prophetic madness unfold, and just about ready to reach in once again and set things right..
Well….. the only thing I can agree with Lee is that animals do not have ‘free will’. That is what our creator granted humans and it’s what gets us into trouble every time. At least, that was what I was taught. It’s Lee’s free will to believe or not believe what she wants. That’s how she was designed, whether she wants to agree or not.
http://www.thedutchharborfisherman.com/article/1023wolves_boldness_keeps_village_on_edge
“The principle of free will has religious, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will implies that an omnipotent divinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices. In ethics, it may hold implications regarding whether individuals can be held morally accountable for their actions. The question of free will has been a central issue since the beginning of philosophical thought.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will
If Lee is still capable of responding, after her last response, I am beginning to wonder…she would be even more confused with the concept of “free will”, since she believes that the concept is what distinguishes humans from animals. Yet, she accuses you of giving them human attributes, in knowing right from wrong, yet she herself denies that there is a “right or wrong” in the moral question of whether or not we are capable of knowing Divine will….And that is where her confusion begins….
So, in actuality, she is accusing you of believing in something she believes in herself…..but since she can’t articulate those thoughts, she vents her confusion on forums where she can find solace from those who are like-minded, and confused as well…. And finds her Maugham priest, the subject of her devotion….
That’s a scary article JTM.
Wonder how Lee will spin that one, that is, if she even bothers to respond to it…
Ok, I’ve had enough heat and humidity! Headin home!
The failings of the wolf is the wolf cannot seem to stay away from us. Slower moving prey is more interesting it seems..
Tear down that town and leave I guess.. Give wolfy back his land..
Greg is right you people get the hell out of town and leave those wolves alone.
http://www.adn.com/2010/06/22/1335399/geologist-survives-bear-mauling.html
http://newsminer.com/view/full_story/5707629/article-Fairbanks-boy-kicked-by-moose-on-his-way-to-school?
Lee:
When I used the term free will it had no referrence to ” My God”, it just meant that wolves are free and have no one forcing them to make a decision. And don’t come back with some starving argument either because I am talking free will, not cirumstances.
Also, what is this with “My God”, I was unaware until your post how truly special I am, to have my very own god. WOW… Philosophy is the key, I now feel 100% authentic.
Furthermore, “My God” created the wolf, to test human kind to iniclude you, and for me personally to use my free will.
And demand control of dangerous carnivors.
Lee:
As like the wolf, I lured you out while the others waited in ambush.. Just wanted you to get a feel for how wolf psychology works, it is cruel, however, my will was only to give you a taste at how it feels nothing more, and If I would not have said anything you would have never known.
Now everyone wonders if your dare post again…I wander myself???
Chris, I’m pretty sure she’ll respond…. to the article about the moose kicking the boy. She’ll point out that moose are more dangerous than wolves.
Of course I’m just speculating here, I could be way off base….
Yeah maybe, Harley, but would think she should would know the difference between a moose kick, and wolves devouring ones flesh. No comparison without stepping in it.
Been away for 4 days.
A bit more background and different slant on the Unimak Island affair:
http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/062510/let_661352596.shtml
And others in the comments. http://newsminer.com/bookmark/7983588-Save-the-caribou
Best I can tell, Lee, those folks you’re referencing are the FOA and PETAs of the Northland. They just don’t want game managed and especially any wolves or bears killed in the process. They resort to hyperbole and other disingenuous tactics to rabble rouse in place of rational fact based argument.
It is really interesting he claims all the bulls are old and impotent (or whatever he said) and then blame the problem on trophy hunting. Don’t trophy hunters take the largest available animals????
Anyway, IMO, the recorded statistics of hunter harvest for this century does not support the claim that trophy hunting has had a substantial damaging impact on this herd. They can be found at:
http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=pubs.mgt
Interestingly enough, the Feds don’t seem anywhere as open with the results of their surveys and subsistence harvest records as ADF&G is.
http://www.adn.com/2009/09/18/940618/rabid-wolf-attacks-hunter-in-southwest.html
Lee, I noticed this on your “Alaskan Wildlife Alliance” site:
“The appointment came into question after the 44-year-old Fairbanks man was seen in an Internet video skinning a wolf and citing the Bible to explain man’s dominion over animals.
No wonder why that galled the hell out of all those Godless wolf followers! Yourself included!
Seems the site is just another Godless wolf follower site, where they want to leave the woods alone, unmanaged, and give all the game to the wolves!
No wonder they resent any hunting….it would be taking game from the mouths of wolves!
Interesting article on what happens when hunting is banned. Although it is in Africa, the same tactics of “wildlife groups” applies here as well….
http://cic-sustainable-hunting-worldwide.org/projects/Principles_dev_sust_man_laws.pdf
KENYA’S WILDLIFE DEBACLE: THE TRUE COST OF BANNING HUNTING
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Monday, April 19, 2010 at 12:20pm
AFRICAN INDABA
Kenya’s Wildlife Debacle: The True Cost of Banning Hunting
Charles E. Kay, Ph.D. in Wildlife Ecology, 480 East 125 North, Providence, UT 84332, Tel. 435-753-0715 e-mail: charles.kay@usu.edu.
Editor’s Note: This article of Charles Kay first appeared in the Nov/Dec 2009 issue of Mule Deer Foundation Magazine. It is reprinted in African Indaba with the kind permission of the author
As I am sure you know, some segments of the public, both here in the United States and abroad, would like to ban hunting in the belief such a move would benefit wildlife, or at least that is what they claim when soliciting funds. It sounds simple, stop hunting animals and you will have more wildlife. Is this, though, a reasonable supposition? For an answer we need to look at the wildlife situation in Kenya for that African country banned all, and I do mean all, hunting in 1977. There is no sport hunting. There is no meat hunting and landowners, be they white or black, have no right to kill wildlife on their property. The ban is total and absolute there being no legal market in either game meat or wildlife products. Kenya outlawed all consumptive use of wildlife at the urging of animal-rights groups in an attempt to stop poaching, or so they said.
At the same time that Kenya prohibited hunting, the Kenya Rangeland Ecological Monitoring Unit began recording the numbers and distribution of livestock and wildlife, primarily large game species, throughout Kenya. This included national parks and other protected areas, black communal lands, and private property, mostly white-owned ranches. So has banning all consumptive use of wildlife worked? Absolutely not, instead it has been a spectacular failure. Since 1977, Kenya has lost 60% to 70% of all its large wildlife even in national parks. Moreover, it is predicted that most large mammals will be extinct in the next 10 to 20 years. So there you have it, if you want to eliminate wildlife, by all means ban hunting!
The rest of the article….
The reason this happened, and is still ongoing, is that there is a cost to having wildlife. If you are a poor, black farmer, as many in Kenya are, and if your crops are destroyed by wildlife, you face not only economic ruin, but actual starvation. Similarly, if you raise livestock either on black communal lands or private ranches, there is a cost to letting wildlife consume forage that could otherwise have been used to feed livestock. In addition, there is the cost of being killed or injured by wildlife. You would be appalled at the number of local people injured or killed each year by lions, elephants, and other dangerous game. Children walking to school in rural Africa are all too routinely attacked by wild animals. No American parent would tolerate what goes on in Africa.
That being the case, it is not surprising then that wildlife has simply disappeared, legal or not. So poaching has actually increased even in national parks. You have to remember that black indigenous landowners were forcefully removed at gunpoint, and without compensation, from every national park and game preserve in East and southern Africa to create “wilderness” pleasuring grounds for white elites. There are few black tourists in any African national park. So the local people “poach” to feed themselves and to earn a few dollars for their families. So would I and so would you, under similar circumstances.
Recently most of the remaining lions in Nairobi National Park, Nairobi being the capitol of Kenya, were speared to death within sight of the Kenya Wildlife Service’s national headquarters, while some 500 bureaucrats sat paralyzed at their desks. “Only a state monopoly could hope to attain such breathtaking heights of incompetence and ineptitude and hope to get away with it.” All of which can be traced to the fact that white colonial governments planted the flag and claimed all land and wildlife for king and country, thereby depriving local people of their birthright. What is even more surprising is that black governments have done little to correct this injustice. Instead, policies like banning all consumptive use of wildlife have made the situation worse.
There is more to this than I can relate here and if you would like additional details, Google Mike Norton-Griffiths and you should be able to find the website on which he has posted a number of his research articles. Dr. Norton-Griffiths is an economist who was born in the U.S., educated in Britain, and who has lived in Kenya for many years. In 2007, Dr. Norton-Griffiths published a paper in World Economics [Vol. 8(2): 41-64] titled, “How Many Wildebeest do You Need?” that chronicles this sad story. “All [the animals rights organizations] care about is that hunting and other consumptive utilization of wildlife is not reintroduced to Kenya, and whether this leads to further losses of wildlife and to the perpetuation of rural poverty is completely irrelevant to them, because their underlying purpose is not to help Kenya but [to enrich themselves through fundraising].”
At the same time that wildlife numbers have fallen precipitously in Kenya following the prohibition on hunting, wildlife populations in Namibia have doubled. While in South Africa, wildlife habitat has doubled and then doubled again. Why the difference? Because both Namibia and South Africa passed legislation giving landowners rights to wildlife. That is to say, the landowners own the wildlife, at the least the large game species. In South Africa, with which I am most familiar, the ranchers have to high-fence their properties before the government will relinquish ownership of game species, and there are other regulations, as well. But there are no closed seasons, no state licenses, no bag limits, and no prohibited methods. Shooting under the midnight sun is legal; i.e., spotlighting. There are also sanctioned markets in both game meat and live animals. The end of wildlife you say? Nothing could be further from the truth.
As the post-apartheid government has withdrawn subsidies from white cattlemen, the landowners have turned to game ranching and both wildlife populations and sport hunting have experienced phenomenal growth. Now that the government has changed the incentives from wildlife being a cost, to wildlife being an asset, a million acres a year are being converted to wildlife – - unlike here in the States where all you hear about is the loss of wildlife habitat. Private landowners, not the national government, have saved the black wildebeest, blesbok, bontebok, and other species including white and black rhinos, because sport hunting now pays the bills. Aldo Leopold predicted as much back in the 1930’s when he wrote an essay on “Game Economics” in which he noted that the surest way to save habitat and enhance wildlife was to allow landowners to profit from protecting habitat and enhancing game populations.
At the present time, plains game hunting in Namibia and South Africa is the most cost efficient big game hunting in the world. Moreover, the trophy quality and hunting experience are outstanding. On my second trip to South Africa, I hunted for three weeks and shot 14 animals, six of which made Rowland Ward, the international equivalent of Boone and Crockett. The cost? About the same as one high-end, trophy mule deer or elk hunt on a private ranch or Indian Reservation here in the West.
While this has been a blessing for white ranchers, various African governments have also passed laws giving black communal landowners rights to wildlife. In Namibia these are called conservancies and it has been shown that when local people receive a direct financial benefit from wildlife, illegal activity is reduced or even eliminated. It is really quite simple, if sport hunting pays the bills, both wildlife, and more importantly habitat, are not only conserved but enhanced.
In Kenya, animal rights groups claim that wildlife viewing by foreign tourists is more beneficial than sport hunting. In that, though, they are badly mistaken. According to Dr. Norton-Griffiths as “extraordinary as it may seem, not a single tourist company in Kenya invests in wildlife or habitat management even though their very economic future depends upon the resource.” This is because most of the large tourist operations are owned by multinational companies, whose only concern is short-term profit. In addition, studies have shown that virtually none of the foreign tourist dollars make it down to the local people, who actually live with wildlife. Instead, black elites divert the money to themselves. It has been estimated that half the gate receipts from national parks “disappear” before reaching the Kenya treasury. Similarly, there is no accountability of the large financial grants that animal-rights groups make to the government each year, rendering them little more than annual bribes. This is why the black elites that run the country have resisted calls to reinstitute hunting. If hunting was again made legal, animal-rights groups would stop giving funds to the central government and thus, there would be less opportunity for rent-seeking behavior by officials; i.e., graft and corruption.
As documented by various scientific studies, wildlife viewing is also more environmentally destructive than sport hunting. This is because the profit margin per person is less, so you have to run a much greater number of tourists through the system to achieve the economic activity generated by a single sport hunter. In addition, tourists expect paved roads and modern five-star accommodations. Water is scarce in arid Africa and tourists require a lot more of it than sport hunters. Furthermore, tourists generate larger quantities of human waste and garbage, both per person and in total, than sport hunters. Sport hunters, on the other hand, are content to stay in tents and drive dirt tracks. No one is arguing that wildlife viewing should not be part of the mix, but to call wildlife viewing “non-consumptive,” is simply false. Tourists also have a much larger carbon footprint than safari hunters.
Hopefully you will never have to confront animal-rights activists while you are out hunting, but if you do, or if you favor that sort of thing, now at least you are armed with the truth about the wildlife debacle in Kenya. Banning hunting is a surefire way to eliminate wildlife. Although to non-hunters this may seem counterintuitive, it is nevertheless true. The reality is that outlawing the consumptive use of wildlife in Kenya has been an unmitigated ecological and human disaster. While in other African countries that have modified their game laws to encourage sport hunting, wildlife populations have increased, as have the private and communal lands devoted to wildlife. As hard as it may be for some people to accept, the free-market system has been more effective at conserving wildlife in Africa than heavy-handed, state-run monopolies.
JTM
Thanks for the interesting link. What is your opinion on the Newsminer newspaper out of Fairbanks?
Lee, I haven’t seen it except for one or two very recent times since I left Fairbanks nearly forty years ago. I did find the recent discussions on the Unimak Is situation a cut above those on the Anchorage Daily News site and intend to read it more in the future.
Here are some spectacular photos of Wolves in action in Denali national Park just a few weeks ago
http://www.alaskaphotographyblog.com/2010/06/wolf-pack-kills-moose-calf/
JTM
Again thanks for the web site: beautiful, informative photography and commentary. I read some of the comments to the moose-wolf encounter and agreed that alpha wolves, at least, may not need be radio collared in Denali National Park.
Lee, In this day and age, to not radio collar wolves (and track them from the air) in Denali Park or anywhere else for that matter is to step back many decades in the quest to understand them and their interactions with their prey etc. Might as well go back to the ways of Glaser and Murie.
You might like:
http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/basic/resources/mech_pdfs/152denaliparkwolfstudies.pdf
jes on June 27th, 2010 6:39 am
“No wonder why that galled the hell out of all those Godless wolf followers! Yourself included!”
Jumping to conclusions again? Not all wolf followers are godless nor do I have any problem with someone skinning a wolf; under legal circumstances I would do so myself.
So you are coming to conclusions regarding me for which you have no evidence other than what you want to believe. You do that frequently.
So, Lee, you have problems with quoting the Bible…..
And, Lee, yes there are some wolf cultist who still believe in the way of the Lord, but once they wake from their slumber, and open their eyes, they see the absurdities… that’s why there are so few..
And Lee, you should look at your own statements, talk about the pot calling the kettle black….
Just where did I say ALL of the wolf cultists are Godless???? Once again, YOU are the one jumping to conclusions…..
JTM
I have no problem with using the tools available for scientific studies of wolves or other biota. I just hope for a few areas where a wolf can live a life without a collar. On my 100 acres my dog has no collar; only when I take her to an area where it is more civilized and the possibility of her getting lost or in “trouble” is more probable do I resort to a collar.
I did like your link; thanks.
If the government wants to lets thier big pet projects lose upon us they shoud be collored and all aspects should be studied and monitotered. As I mentioned in earlier post, in my area the bear population has exploded, along with wolves. I believe the bear have been problem bears introduced to this area, many are collared, and two have wandered into local towns recently.
Last spring 2009 we had a 40 ac field that went unharvested as a result of weather. In May 2009 we had a bithday party for one of out older kids, whereas we has a dozen nieghbor kids attend a grill out/ boon fire/smores evening. I had talk to the kids about running off in the dark telling them, that we have both bears an wolves. When you get a bunch of kids together they get pretty brazen and out of control. Anyway one of the kids hollered lets run through the corn field, everysingle kid from 17 to 7 took off in that field at a gallop. I just had calls from town two days earlier, that a collared large boar had been seen running across the highway into that field. I was livid as these kids including mine had no sense. In hindsight they the kids being more than tweny, problaby scared the heck out of this poor animal and it chose flight instead of fight, but at the same time this situation could have also proven fatal. This past winter the DNR called and confirmed a bear lived in out corn field until we harvested it in June. To me this was good to know as I have finially got across to my teenage idiots there is danger in the dark (and at times during the day) here at home and you need to respect it…ALWAYS I just wish the DNR would have let us know months earlier we were living with a bear…as it was collared. Wolves should be the same…
I is hard enough to get it thru the heads of some adults these animals are dangerous, let alone teenages who this they are invisiable… One point I want to make is that while the wolf activists promote the wolf ect. our children are being educated to thier fashion, I am having to correct some of that. Plus as much as we prepare and tell our children they do not always listen, some times kids do things you warn them against doing, and they learn certain lessons by natural conciqueses. For example when thier small ” do not touch that it is hot”, and as soon as you turn your back, what to they do? Touch it!! But now they have learned. When it comes to predatures and natural consqueses it is wether it be teenagers that think thier invinceable or adults that failed to take warning the natural consequences are just to high.
Sorry about the typos, my phone was ringing off the hook..
http://www.adn.com/2010/07/14/1366990/police-chase-small-black-bear.html