Wolf Hunt In Idaho Regardless Of Fed Decision On Delisting? Not Profound
August 8, 2009
A report last week in the Idaho Mountain Express said that Idaho Fish and Game Commissioner, Randy Budge, declared that there would be a wolf hunt in Idaho this Fall whether it’s legal or not.
“It will either be a state-authorized one or it will be an illegal one,” he said.
Budge was speaking before a conference of Western Attorneys General in Sun Valley when he made his claim that if the courts ruled to put the wolf back under protection of the Endangered Species Act, enough sportsmen are fed up that they will take matters into their own hands and begin shooting wolves in order to save the elk, deer and moose.
That statement really is not very profound. What it doesn’t do or what this report fails to tell readers is the extent to which such an “illegal” wolf hunt would take place.
One doesn’t have to be in law enforcement to know that a certain amount of “shoot, shovel and shut up” is already taking place. I reported some time ago that the longer the unreasonable environmentalists continue their bratty ways of throwing all their deceptively garnered funds at the courts to “save the wolf”, the chances increase dramatically that their effort will backfire in their face.
People are fed up, not only that they are beginning to see the wolf advocates are unreasonable but people are now seeing first hand the destruction of the wolf – a destruction they were promised would not happen.
What is also happening is that millions of dollars being wasted in efforts over many decades to restore elk populations in these same regions. Idaho’s elk hunting is now becoming so poor, license sales have dropped and out-of-state elk hunters are opting for other locals, like Colorado. This is fish and game revenue no state can operate successfully without.
Mule deer hunting success in some areas of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming has dropped off so significantly many sportsmen are no longer willing to spend their money to buy a license. One report has that success rate as low as 16% – absolutely unacceptable.
Anyone who is completely honest, as was the case with Commissioner Budge, will say that the matter of wolves will be taken into the hands of some and unfortunately wolves will be killed in an unmanaged way. The idea of a managed wolf hunt is to take out wolves where too many exist.
The Idaho Mountain Express report asked if making such a claim as Budge did would “play into the hands of conservationists”, yet failed to ask the same question in regards to how the ridiculous stance of the wolf lovers is going to affect their efforts.
It should be pointed out that I know of no legitimate sportsman’s organization that is advocating for an illegal wolf hunt should the courts reverse the current standing of state-managed wolves. Frustration levels are acutely on the rise simply because this entire effort has exceeded the bounds of rational thinking. The courts’ rulings, not based on science, have brought this entire effort to a pinnacle. The only question will be to what extent wolves will be illegally killed, if again the environmental extremists have their way with the courts?
Tom Remington
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Just showing what and unreasonable NAZI jackass Ralph Maughan is, this guy is as unAmerican as it gets…
The blog he has going about this same topic labels hunters as raging redneck hating madmen, people want these wolves managed and people like Ralph and Stone insist wolves should manage themselves.. So if we disagree with their view point we are HATERS and REDNECKS and stupid potato heads..
The continued stepping in the shit by these people just blows my mind..Not to mention the shitting in their own nest..
April 8, 2009 — Ralph Maughan
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Just a few comments concerning management of wolves
http://wolves.wordpress.com/2009/08/05/budge/#comment-83281
#
Lynne Stone Says:
August 7, 2009 at 6:26 PM
I bought my bull elk tag for Unit 36 and other nearby areas, got yours Larry?
The IDFG commissioners responded to a lot of hard work by ICL in trying to establish wolf viewing areas, by designating those big game units as SEVEN MONTH wolf hunting areas – this includes Stanley, Sawtooth Valley, Bear Valley and other nearby areas.
What it’s going to take to change things in Idaho spud head country is one millionaire who likes wolves who has influence with the governor.
#
Lynne Stone Says:
August 7, 2009 at 6:33 PM
Bob Jackson – you are right on the mark with your comments. It won’t take much at all for outfitters and others to go right to the den site in March, and blow away the entire pack -something perfectly legal in areas where the wolf hunt will go to March 31st.
If the wolf hunt goes forward, a lot of the wolves in Idaho now are going to be sacrificed to the madness of Butch Otter, the IDFG commissioners, the legislature, outfitters, and all the rest of the wolf hating crowd. How many photos will it take this September of “harvested” wolf pups, barely 5 month olds, spread across national media, for Idahoans to wake up? I know wolves are smart, but a lot are going to be killed before they have a chance to learn to avoid man, and all the baits “sportsmen” will use to lure them in.
If you haven’t seen a wolf in Idaho, hurry and look in the next 3 weeks. If hunters aren’t shooting at them, then a lot of wolf supporters will be – to scare wolves. What a f—ing mess, this place called Idaho, run by spudheads.
#
Lynne Stone Says:
August 7, 2009 at 6:51 PM
I apologize for yet another post, but am at the Stanley Library and won’t be near the internet again until tomorrow. Larry – I think you are living in a dream world. I know Salmon Region commissioner Gary Powers. He’s a personable guy, and the only one of the commissioner who actually knows something about wildlife. He told me that by allowing hunters to kill wolves, they’ll get to like them more, kinda of the rationale that IDFG uses with mountain lions. In other words, only by killing something will Idaho hunters maybe get to tolerate a species. Before you pass me off as anti-hunting, remember I grew up in a redneck, gun nut family, where hunting was the highlight of the year.
As for the notion that the upper Big Wood area (home of the Phantom Hill wolves) might be a token viewing area, all those wolves have to do, is cross over Galena Summit on September 1st, and one or all of this beautiful black pack can be shot. The mule deer guys from S. Blaine County are probably already scheming on how to bait the wolves over the pass, and frothing with delight with the thot of parading the carcasses of the Phantoms up and down Ketchum’s Main Street.
My MODERATED comment….
33.
Greg Farber Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
August 8, 2009 at 11:02 AM
You folks are being paranoid.
1. The economy is so bad and several thousand people will not be hunting this fall..
2. Wolves are nocturnal, they hunt at night, sleep during daylight and stay in the timber..
3. I have located seven dens, over the years, at this time five are vacant, I am aware of the location of the Phantom Packs den, and their doing fine.. I would share photos but then some folks would be able to pin point their local…
4. Filling a wolf tag will not be easy, and most who purchase that tag and set out to fill it, will not even see a wolf…
5. If a few do get taken, the others who watch this happen will go into deeper wooded areas and only move in the dark..
6. You folks say you care about wolves, then I say you better start caring about their prey base.. The way I see it, you are the wolves worst enemy..
7. Un managed predators will never work, ever. Hunting this particular predator also will not stop the depletion of its prey base, instead of wasting money stopping hunting support and create a plan for State efforts for capture and relocation…
8. I do not believe a wolf hunt will happen, and I do not believe your fellow members of the community will rush out in a rage and slaughter wolves in anger…Personally I would have never and would never shoot a coyote, and have no intention’s on a wolf tag.. Like I say, I don’t eat dog.
9. Over predation by wolves is real..get over it..Try to really help this situation instead of continuing to hinder it..You guys want respect then you better start giving it..
“As for the notion that the upper Big Wood area (home of the Phantom Hill wolves) might be a token viewing area, all those wolves have to do, is cross over Galena Summit on September 1st, and one or all of this beautiful black pack can be shot. The mule deer guys from S. Blaine County are probably already scheming on how to bait the wolves over the pass, and frothing with delight with the thot of parading the carcasses of the Phantoms up and down Ketchum’s Main Street.” Lynne Stone..
Not only is no deer hunter planning such nonsense, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to pull that off… OMG…And she calls us potato heads…That country is vertical and massive, and it would take SUPERMAN to do this that she claims.. Yep deer hunters can leap mountain ranges in single bounds, most of that country is not horse friendly either..And we are going to find and chase the phantom pack around in there and sucker them into unit 36, and then whack them, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LMAO…
All you need do is read THEIR blogs to know them.. They call us haters while hating on us..
Classic Feudalism created by outside forces…\
I find it amazing…
These people are in severe denial of reality and truth…
The crashing ungulates and wolves killing each other does not even phase them..
A brief and simple history lesson on wolves and their migratory patterns tells us a lot. This was completely ignored during reintroduction and is still ignored today.
Were these introduced wolves clad in capes?
“If the wolf hunt goes forward, a lot of the wolves in Idaho now are going to be sacrificed to the madness of Butch Otter, the IDFG commissioners, the legislature, outfitters, and all the rest of the wolf hating crowd. How many photos will it take this September of “harvested” wolf pups, barely 5 month olds, spread across national media, for Idahoans to wake up? I know wolves are smart, but a lot are going to be killed before they have a chance to learn to avoid man, and all the baits “sportsmen” will use to lure them in.” Lynne Stone..
Baiting wolves will not be allowed, using hounds also will not be allowed, neither idea would work anyhow.. But we are just a bunch of f ing spud heads according to Stone..
She has lost it.. She can not get along with any body..Including supporters of this site she posts at, see below
Larry Thorngren Says:
August 8, 2009 at 11:31 AM
Lynne -
I decided long ago not to kill anything I wouldn’t take home to eat. I have never killed a coyote, bear or wolf and don’t intend to. I don’t shoot at wolves to scare them and I don’t “accidentally” take photos of wolf pups at dens either. I was making a point. When you call Idaho spud head country, deride all of the officials who make decisions on wolves, and alienate moderate wolf advocates, such as myself, you are going to get a lot of push back.
I have only had two people treat me rudely when I was involved in some way with wolves in Idaho, Lynne Stone on the East Fork of the Big Wood River, and Ron Gillett in Stanley. You have a lot in common.
She needs some spuds in her head me thinks..
Greg, I would imagine that your comment will be left in moderation till hell freezes or wolves are hunted. Ralphie and Stone wont tolerate common sense, just their common goal. Near as I can tell most of the contributers that post there would volunteer as human shields to prevent even one IDOLIZED wolf from harvest. In Montana the 75 wolf quota to hunt will surely be 75 times too many and I am confident this issue will have to go to the supreme court to be enforced.
Yep, I know, those twits know not what they do..Here is a special treat for you Jay, just look and think…
1. http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/854/globalgreenusa.jpg
2. http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2014/planetsaturn.gif
1. http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/854/globalgreenusa.jpg
2. http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2014/planetsaturn.gif
The Saturnalian Brotherhood
The core of the control over Planet Earth’s populance lies in ancient cults. These cults are still in existence to this day. Following the most ancient religions mixed with sexual worship. The main cults are the worship of the Planet Saturn (El), Moon (Isis), Venus (Lucifer) & Sun (Ra). Israel is located on the land formerly known as Canaan. Canaan was the most advanced post-deluvian civilization on Earth. Outstripping both Egypt and Sumer in all areas. Now the center of trade, holy land and soon the Divine Dragon’s open ‘Latin Kingdom.’ When the Luciferian Vatican moves from Rome to Canaan.
Quite simply the environmentalist insanity was invented in the Club of Rome…1967 Iron Mountain Report, being enforced via the 17th Amendment and the United Nations Heritage Treatise, It is designed to be feudal and destructive, it is to divide us, to conquer us, and it is working splendidly..
I have no doubts in my mind the elites behind this fraud laugh a lot at the fools fighting over this horseshit…They control our Department of Interior, Forest Service, ESA, and the Fish and Wildlife Agency…The logo I shared is their signature, their laughter…Because they know there are very few of us about who can read occultic symbols…It is a Trojan horse, and it is from Saturnalia, which is Rome..
Italy is Saturn
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1280/italysaturn.jpg
Hey Greg, I woke this morning to visit the wolf worshipping sites and found to my surprise that Ralphie had posted your comment on his blog! They shut me out because I spoke of God. Good luck let em have an ear full!
He is weird dude, he has banned me, deleted me, and then allows my posts now and again.. What I would give to get Ralphie in and open no holds barred open forum with no deletion, and a full discovery of material…And this guy was a professor of political science…Approved political sciences of indoctrination..Approved for the class history.. LMAO…
This is so funny, these people call us HATERS, they call us REDNECKS, SPUD HEADS, They try to defame our character all they want, and when we play back they whine like women and threaten suits…Ertz lied about the wolf meeting in Hailey in February, calling the people there wolf haters, Every one gets tossed into the same pot with them…Freedom of return insults according to Ertz is illegal activity..LMAO…Here is one for you Brian, since you actually do more harm to yourself I suggest you sue your yourself…Store that buddy..
Obviously Ertz would love people jailed or loss of financial gains due to freedom of expression…Hang in there dude its coming, sooner than you think…Another fake American ?
Brian Ertz Says:
August 9, 2009 at 3:27 PM
Save bears,
why document any illegal activity ? A. it’s one of the things I have experience with enough to know to do.
B. Following up on that, If Ralph or Lynne were to feel harmed by the clear defamation of their character and were to ask a webmaster to take such down – it helps. If threatening behavior were to arise in the future – and as much as folk like to pretend it’s not real, I can assure you it is – then having documented a pattern of illegal behavior can help mitigate a threat in the future – and grant compelling illustration as to the nature of character.
C. Greg likened a person that I care about to a historical figure which many might feel deserved a certain fate, in the context of an article concerning heavy inferences which some might liken to the fomentation of vigilanteism.
D. People understand how difficult it is to enforce/prosecute the illegal killing of wolves. Gems like these might help should the threat/”predictions” turn out true and individuals be implicated. You’d be suprised how paths have a tendency to cross like that.
E. It’s as easy as click & save.
Greg Farber Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
August 9, 2009 at 4:27 PM
Brian, the historical person you refer to lived to the ripe old age of 114 years…Now Brian here is something for your hard drive as well, it is in San Diego and belongs to our Navy. http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5734/coronado2.jpg
At Remingtons site there is no censor or moderation..It is and open floor ..This site is not..
JB, I agree in part, the vast Yukon, and Canadian Wilderness areas function just fine..BUT, these landlocked forests we are living in here in Idaho can not sustain unmanaged elk herds, and as well wolves can not sustain balance in this scenario..It is being proven by the wolves elk and deer themselves…
Jeff E, Since I also file and pay income tax annually I have signed the Communist plank as well, if you bothered to research that evidence it explains itself…
Also I am a plumbers retired helper now for about 24 months… It’s true, I was a plumber, I worked alone for 30 years, and I helped myself to get ahead…Now I can enjoy the fruits of my labor…
I find it funny that you guys get insulted because I call you Communists..Read the Bill of Rights, and Read the Ten Planks of the Communist Manifesto, it speaks for itself..
As usual there is no middle ground here…SPUD HEAD OUT..ha ha
They suffer from this problem
“WE ARE INTELLECTUAL PROSTITUTES”
One night, probably in 1880, John Swinton, then the preeminent New York journalist, was the guest of honour at a banquet given him by the leaders of his craft. Someone who knew neither the press nor Swinton offered a toast to the independent press. Swinton outraged his colleagues by replying: There is no such thing, at this date of the world’s history, in America, as an independent press. You know it and I know it.
There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinion out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone.
The business of the journalists is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it and I know it, and what folly is this toasting an independent press?
We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes.”
HIS BREAD I EAT HIS SONG I SING
That’s right, King George wished he could shut up the Founders of the Constitution and Bill Of Rights as well…You see I proved my point, they only read and see what they want….They call us everything in the book and that’s fair..I call Ralph a NAZI due to his blog site being the strictest I’ve ever seen, and I am radical, of course I am, Independent free thought is always radical according to society, especially indoctrinated society’s, As well Ertz suggests I am violent and dangerous., I say he is radical, he has helped to damage people who are my friends financially…How many people lost homes and property due to your actions BRIAN ERTZ…They had children to..
Save bears Says:
August 9, 2009 at 5:14 PM
And by the way, I will say, I wish there was a way to shut the radical element on both sides of this issue up, because they add nothing to the solution…
They should read this
http://pepehateme.wordpress.com/2009/05/22/are-you-a-practicing-communist/
I love going fishing, drop a line, and hook em up..ha ha…Just more proof it is a one sided blog site only for them..ZERO HONEST DEBATE.. I’ve over 300 blogs on line, I don’t see these SUPER INTELLECTUALS jumping in and debunking anything…
mikarooni Says:
August 9, 2009 at 5:53 PM
Oh yeah, first, that sure tells us all where you’re really at and, second, you’re sure accomplishing a lot. Why don’t you set up another booth at another hunting show and jawbone your pals a bit more. I’m sure they’ll see the light any time now.
Wow Greg you got the wolf worshippers all fired up at Ralphies site and he felt it necessary to silence you. Way to go buddy! And as I see so common there poor Brian was wearing his feeling on his sleeve and got it hurt again. That guy needs an anger management course I think. But looking at the dialogue that develops there, they will implode. Living without differing opinions to expand ones mind will stagnate the mind, and as I see it it is happening there.
Brian Ertz has a short memory, He labeled 150 people in February which had attended the pro management of wolves meeting as a hate group, I and several friends were there, Brian knows full well several of us were offended by his characterizing us as a hate group… Now I called his buddy Ralph a NAZI, boo hoo… It’s ok for them but we should be silent is their message.. I am actually ashamed that Ertz is a fellow Countrymen…
LOL, yep the founders were unhinged as well Ralph, so was Jesus…So was anyone what disputed Luciferian doctrines
Greg F made a followup, but he seems unhinged — probably a “bither” “deather”, etc., so he won’t be posting but that one time. Ralph Maughan
Ha ha, I’ve five vehicles you mental midget, shall I post photos of the Phantom Dens on Sun Valley Blogs for you…????? Funny I never see you big fat butt north of Ktown either..I doubt she can pack that fat butt up to that den…
Lynne Stone Says:
August 9, 2009 at 6:51 PM
For the record, Greg Farber lives near Bellevue, not Sun Valley. I doubt he knows where the Phantom den(s) is/are. I’ve never seen him north of Ketchum and I’ve spent the last six months there. Am told he has a license plate on his pickup truck that says “Mules”. I assume that is for mule deer, but dunno.
LOL.. The twisted minds of radical over protective extreme pro wolf people, This guy really is something else, blocking me from his web site for my rants else where yet claiming I ranted at his site..ha ha…I’m blocked eh, just watch me Ralph, I’ll teach you a thing or two about technology… I will post several agreeable comments there and then do a blog about them…Children these U.S. Corporate serfs…how funny..
Ralph Maughan Says:
August 9, 2009 at 10:18 PM
JB,
I gave Farber the boot after his first post. Initially I thought he was someone I knew who is generally reasonable.
My mistake. Once people start calling others Nazis on this blog, I want them gone.
Where is this Ralphie boy ! I did nothing of the kind in your house..
Ralph also says; Folks get worked up here (as they should), but they don’t get to call each seriously unpleasant names.
OH REALLY….Translated this means they can do it but no person can fire back at them… ha ha…
But you Ertz are not Radical are you…Not close minded at all are you Ertz…Oh no, your and angelic Ghia freak…
Brian Ertz Says:
August 9, 2009 at 11:59 PM
“radical” is not a bad word. unfortunately, it’s often mis-used with the mistaken belief that in casting it, we’re somehow excused from thinking about & considering the reason/merit behind the “radical” folks’ ideas.
More hate, lies, and ingnorance from PEOPLE WHO DON’T LIVE HERE.
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/wildlife/wolves/story/893241.html
Is there anything these unthinking idiots don’t hate?
Sure but Feinstein and Boxer can have elk herds on and Island off California gunned down by government snipers to rid the Island of those creatures..Red Elk I believe, it has been awhile since reading those Congressional Bills those two proposed for the removal of the elk..Now I am going to find it again..It’s obvious who is destroying this earth and it is nut jobs living 1000s of miles from other peoples areas who think they deserve a say about Idaho, or Alaska, or Wyoming..Why in the hell would any body want these people making decisions about our back yards when we know they have crashed and trashed their own..AMAZING.. The Trojan Horse is smashing Liberty for all in this country, and whats more fascinating to watch is all the over educated arrogant blind fools helping it to happen..The division is complete, this will end up coming to blows, it always has in the past and we are steaming full throttle into chaos..Nobody is looking up…
The reason Sarah Palin was for killing wolves from airplanes was not to increase moose populations for native hunters of moose but to increase revenue from out of state hunters.
A comment from ar’s web site by someone who lives in Alaska
frmcopperriver wrote on 08/10/2009 04:41:36 PM:
“This is a loop hole “Hunts allowed with airplanes only when it’s a biological emergency”. The Intensive Game Management program should be stopped all together because it is wrong; let nature sort out the balance here, man never ever gets this sort of thing right.
I have lived in Alaska my whole life and this program is a disgrace to all Alaskans. If the herds are low in numbers then stop ALL in and out of state hunters untill the herds are strong again, “
pds
Greg we are looking up if its no-one else– its you and me.
Lee – When people are anti-hunting, anti-Sarah Palin and believe that “Nature” does the best job of managing a sustainable game population, they will never be convinced that sometimes extreme measures are necessary.
You know nothing of subsistence hunting and I’ll bet you have no problem with people paying taxes on cigarettes and alcohol.
It is my understanding that Nancy Pelosi is one of the 105 uninformed and misinformed who signed onto the bill to stop wolf management in Alaska. Interesting in that she approves the killing of millions of fish in her state in order to manage game fishing. She also approves of the slaughter of several hundred elk and other creatures on one of California’s islands in order to “manage” the ecosystem.
Is this not hypocrisy and a double standard?
The Maughan blog site is over moderated, he is a censor, they do not except challenges..People like me make them feel threatened, The Watersheds people are stuck inside a box and they have closed their minds to anything outside that box, frankly people like that are very arrogant and they disappoint… It is radical to call others a hate group and then cry foul when they are called the same.. NAZI – HATE Group is the same, Idahoans are SPUD heads according to Lynne Stone..That is hate.. Brian lied about the meeting in Hailey, he called me and mine a hate group…FACT.. I think he is a punk.. It is OK to post my license on their web page…This action could cause me physical harm some day..yet that is ok.. We shall soon see how Brian, Lynne, and even perhaps Ralph likes their homes, cars, license plates on the web..Two can play that game..funny how they forget..
I think therefore I am – Educate yourself on the World..
Read everything, Listen to everybody. Don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own in depth research.
Selective hearing is what most groups and most people suffer from.. ESPECIALLY THE RALPH MAUGHAN FLOCK…
We are part of the eco system ourselves..Look what letting government manage itself has turned into.. Man has already proven to be capable of management of the eco systems, it is this 40 years old theory reinvented and being enforced which is harming the eco systems.. Just look to the owners of of the Banking Empire for those who dreamed up this NEW AGE eco system theory…Do you trust them still ? It is their money and their think tanks.. always has been..
http://www.abc-coggc.org/jrad/volume9/issue3/Toward%20a%20Definition%20of%20Radical%20Reformation.pdf
rad·i·cal (rd-kl)
adj.
1. Arising from or going to a root or source; basic: proposed a radical solution to the problem.
2. Departing markedly from the usual or customary; extreme: radical opinions on education.
3. Favoring or effecting fundamental or revolutionary changes in current practices, conditions, or institutions: radical political views.
4. Linguistics Of or being a root: a radical form.
5. Botany Arising from the root or its crown: radical leaves.
6. Slang Excellent; wonderful.
n.
1. One who advocates fundamental or revolutionary changes in current practices, conditions, or institutions: radicals seeking to overthrow the social order.
2. Mathematics The root of a quantity as indicated by the radical sign.
3. Symbol R An atom or a group of atoms with at least one unpaired electron.
4. Linguistics See root1.
radical
Adjective
1. favouring fundamental change in political or social conditions: a radical student movement
2. of the essential nature of a person or thing; fundamental: a radical fault
3. searching or thorough: a radical interpretation
4. Maths of or containing roots of numbers or quantities
Noun
1. a person who favours fundamental change in existing institutions or in political, social, or economic conditions
2. Maths a root of a number or quantity, such as 3?5, ?x
3. Chem an atom or group of atoms which acts as a unit during chemical reactions [Latin radix a root]
radicalism n
radically adv
radical (rd-kl)
1. A root, such as 2, especially as indicated by a radical sign ().
2. A group of atoms that behaves as a unit in chemical reactions and is often not stable except as part of a molecule. The hydroxyl, ethyl, and phenyl radicals are examples. Radicals are unchanged by chemical reactions.
The American Heritage® Science Dictionary.
This is how I see Brian Ertz, the Watersheds group and Ralph liar censoring Maughan..
basic, essential; original, innate, ingrained. 2. complete, unqualified, thorough; drastic, excessive, immoderate, violent. Radical, extreme, fanatical denote that which goes beyond moderation or even to excess in opinion, belief, action, etc. Radical emphasizes the idea of going to the root of a matter, and this often seems immoderate in its thoroughness or completeness: radical ideas; radical changes or reforms. Extreme applies to excessively biased ideas, intemperate conduct, or repressive legislation: to use extreme measures. Fanatical is applied to a person who has extravagant views, esp. in matters of religion or morality, which render that person incapable of sound judgments; and excessive zeal which leads him or her to take violent action against those who have differing views: fanatical in persecuting others.
Only fools think they do not harm other men and earth..
If you fight with knowledge to protect what is yours you are considered radical..
56 radical men started us all into this experience, at great and ultimate cost to themselves.. Many so-called us corporation serfs are helping to ruin it forever, some don’t lift one finger to protect it.. (Lee) others ruin the lively hoods of others…The Watersheds Group is guilty of this…
Tom, How did you decide that I “know nothing of subsistence hunting”? I have done considerable reading on the subject in the past and continue to do so.
And what does the ” problem with people paying taxes on cigarettes and alcohol” have to do with natives shooting moose in Alaska?
The quote I included from “frmcopperriver ” was just to illustrate that not all Alaskans feel hunting from airplanes is desirable. The author doesn’t say he/she is anti-hunting.
From Indian Country News:
“In her short tenure, Palin has also tried to overturn critical federal protections for Alaska Native customary and traditional uses of game, again simply to enhance sport hunting. Palin’s attack here has targeted (among others) the Ahtna Indian people in Chistochina, and although the federal court last year rejected this challenge, too, Palin has refused to lay down her arms. The battle has thus moved on to the appellate courts.”
http://indiancountrynews.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4505&Itemid=1
“Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, avid helicopter hunter and lifetime NRA member, has opposed native subsistence rights ever since she came into office. Tuesday, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals said “Thanks but no thanks” to her ongoing efforts to ban indigenous moose harvest. Federal trust responsibility for Native people meant that the Federal Subsistence Management program followed all appropriate procedures in its ruling for moose harvest”
http://www.nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/164/
http://wildlife-conservation.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_facts_about_wolf_management_in_alaska
Written by a native Alaskan:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/2/An-Alaska-Native-speaks-ou-by-Evon-Peter-080910-216.html
I don’t know anything about the killing of fish, deer or elk in California. I did find that they deer are mulies from the Kiabab and the elk Roosevelt. I am not particularly pleased with Pelosi or Reed as congressional leaders.
Lee, you need to be called down by your statement,”The reason Sarah Palin was for killing wolves from airplanes was not to increase moose populations for native hunters of moose but to increase revenue from out of state hunters.”
You don’t get it do you?
If you protect the herd by killing wolves, you are not charging hunters from out of state to kill them…..that is ridiculous…you are only killing wolves with state approved wildlife officials who understand the problem with out of control predators…
That benefits not only the native hunters who rely upon them, but opens revenues for out of state hunters who want to hunt the elk and moose as well.. Can you understand that?
Jes, Palin’s motivation for increasing moose populations is not for the benefit of the native population. If that was her intent why all the court cases trying to limit their access to fish and game?
Jes, did you read ANY of the links I sent?
At this time the hunting is not done just by “state approved wildlife officials who understand the problem with out of control predators…” since private contractors are currently allowed to kill wolves from fixed-wing airplanes.
The following was written by Lloyd B. Miller, an Anchorage attorney.
“Sunday Sept 7, 2008
Sarah Palin’s Record on Alaska Native and Tribal Issues
1. Palin has attacked Alaska Native Subsistence Fishing
Perhaps no issue is of greater importance to Alaska
Native peoples as the right to hunt and fish according to ancient customary and traditional practices, and to carry on the subsistence way of life for future generations.
Governor Sarah Palin has consistently opposed those rights.
Once in office, Governor Palin decided to continue litigation that seeks to overturn every subsistence fishing determination the federal government has ever made in Alaska. (State of Alaska v. Norton, 3:05-cv-0158- HRH (D. Ak).) The goal of Palin’s law suit is to invalidate all the subsistence fishing regulations the federal government has issued to date to protect Native fishing, and to force the courts instead to take over the roll of setting subsistence regulations. Palin’s law suit seeks to diminish subsistence fishing rights in order to expand sport and commercial fishing.
In May 2007, the federal court rejected the State’s main challenge, holding that Congress in 1980 had expressly granted the U.S. Interior and Agriculture Departments the authority to regulate and protect Native and rural subsistence fishing activities in Alaska. (Decision entered May 15, 2007 (Dkt. No. 110).) Notwithstanding this ruling, Palin continues to argue in the litigation that the federal subsistence protections are too broad, and should be narrowed to exclude vast areas from subsistence fishing, in favor of sport and commercial fishing. Palin opposes subsistence protections in marine waters, on many of the lands that Natives selected under
their 1971 land claims settlement with the state and federal governments, and in many of the rivers where Alaska Natives customarily fish. Palin also opposes subsistence fishing protections on Alaska Native federal allotments that were deeded to individuals purposely
to foster Native subsistence activities. All these issues are now pending before the federal district court.
2. Palin has attacked Alaska Native Subsistence Hunting
Palin has also sought to invalidate critical determinations the Federal Subsistence Board has made regarding customary and traditional uses of game, specifically to take hunting opportunities away from Native subsistence villagers and thereby enhance sport hunting.
Palin’s attack here on subsistence has focused on the Ahtna Indian people in Chistochina. Although the federal district court has rejected Palin’s challenge, she has carried on an appeal that was argued in August 2008. (State
of Alaska v. Fleagle, No. 07-35723 (9th Cir.).)
In both hunting and fishing matters, Palin has continued uninterrupted the policies initiated by the former Governor Frank Murkowski Administration, challenging hunting and fishing protections that Native people depend upon for their subsistence way of life in order to enhance sport fishing and hunting opportunities. Palin’s lawsuits are a direct attack on the core way of life of Native Tribes in rural Alaska.”
http://community.freespeech.org/palin_opposes_alaska_native_life,_tribal_sovereignty_and_voting_rights
OK, then FWS is not managing wolves in the lower 48 because I happen to know two private contractors who cull wolves in Idaho, and Wyoming…You guys always want it both ways over ever y issue..Thus let the populance hunt the wolves for management In Idaho…
Greg states “You guys always want it both ways over ever y issue”. Since I am an idiot, as you have told me on at least one occasion, please explain “both ways ” and “every issue” to me.
I have no problem with hunting wolves so long as there remains a reasonable population of them in Idaho,Montana, and Wyoming and most adjacent states. Not being a trained scientist in this area, I will leave the numbers to be determined by those with more knowledge than I have.
I agree with you that hunting wolves is not going to be easy in central Idaho – a lot of cover and very steep. I think it might be prudent to have a policy like Minnesota where their plan was to not hunt for at least 5 years after delisting.
FWS (Department of Interior) turns the control of “problem wolves” over to “Wildlife Services” (Department of Agriculture).
You say the private contractors are culling wolves – what is the criteria upon which the wolves are being culled? Who makes the call?
file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/George/Desktop/gray-wolf-kill_10671.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcH_FK9_tgI&NR=1
FWS makes the first call.. wolves have been taken down for killing private hoofed property on and off private lands including National Parks..
This always boils down to your group being willing to surrender the rights of another group.. Over a dog..
I say let Alaska run Alaska, it is their back yard and their business, their resources, which is what this boils down to..
Take away mans food and guess who controls him.. Someone far far away, makes man dependent on them… That is the bottom line..
I take back the idiot remark, sorry. I like you, and enjoy your challenges..Your not and idiot..If the opportunity presents itself check out The Power of Now ECKHART TOLLE, A New Earth.. It is basically a great explanation why individuals clash and defend.. You were raised to believe what you believe, and so was I, and everyone else, we all are defending our identities..
Lee,
I really don’t know if our herds could handle 5 years of not hunting the wolves. In North Idaho their numbers have increased greaty just in the past 2-3 years. Hunting them in North Idaho would be even harder than central Idaho due to terrain and thick vegatation. While I agree they are kind of a neat animal and I enjoy hearing them and seeing them I feel they need to be hunted with quotas set like what they’ve done with mountain lions. I doubt though that they would ever reach their quota on wolves during the seasons that they are proposing.
Greg
Alaska is one of the United States I know that there are some people there that want to be a separate nation, but until that happens US citizens do have some say in what goes on there. I’ll bet if the state wanted to kill all the moose there would be a lot of people not in their backyard that would go to battle..
MikeL
Five years was the proposal in another state. It need not be the same in Idaho. Idaho has not yet set a quota; August 17 is the date for that. But there had been suggestions of 250 which sounds high to me. Montana’s is 75
We were intended to be separate sovereign nation states by our founders, this 145 year old political theory which was installed in 1868 in America, changed our true identity via subterfuge, we are fifty provinces under the rule of a provincial, this is unAmerican, and it will end up causing this political process to fail and the U.N. will be presented as the savior, and they will take over eventually, that also will fail..And has failed in Europe and it is failing here..by design.. I doubt people would stand still for the wipe out of a resource known as Moose, in fact 100 years of very successful hunting management speaks for itself..
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Liar, I’ve never met or talked to this person ever.. This is just and example of contempt prior to investigation…
JEFF E Says:
August 9, 2009 at 10:43 PM
Ralph,
I am really not sorry I started this s***storm. I have had interaction with Mr. Farber in the past and figured we all needed to know what he really was like.
Ralph says
Thanks for this link, Jeff. I didn’t read it until quite a while after You posted it. This guy is a sad case. I decided to cut off this unproductive thread after a few more comments.
Liar, I’ve never met or talked to this person ever.. This is just and example of contempt prior to investigation…
JEFF E Says:
August 9, 2009 at 10:43 PM
Ralph,
I am really not sorry I started this s***storm. I have had interaction with Mr. Farber in the past and figured we all needed to know what he really was like.
Ralph says
Thanks for this link, Jeff. I didn’t read it until quite a while after You posted it. This guy is a sad case. I decided to cut off this unproductive thread after a few more comments.
Webmaster.
If you out research them seeking hard facts you are a sad case.. We shall see who the sad cases really are in the future.. The truth always wins in the end..
unproductive when their perspective is challenged..
If you out research them seeking hard facts you are a sad case.. We shall see who the sad cases really are in the future.. The truth always wins in the end..
If you read Stones comment she says a lot, she accuses Idahoans of planning to break the IFG rules by cheating to fill a wolf tag, baiting and hounds will not be allowed, it is man against wolf, on foot or horse only, bow or rifle. Also she calls Idahoans with opposing views to hers, SPUD heads and claims these SPUD heads have F—ked Idaho all up, As well she says here, “If hunters aren’t shooting at them, then a lot of wolf supporters will be –to scare wolves.” That action is against the law, to interfere with a legal hunter hunting in a legal state authorized hunt is a FEDERAL CRIME.. She has threatened to commit and illegal act, and to be out scaring wolves so as to scare them out odf and area is also interference and illegal…. She posted that comment at the Ralph Maughan Web Site..It is seen below.
Lynne Stone Says:
August 7, 2009 at 6:33 PM
Bob Jackson – you are right on the mark with your comments. It won’t take much at all for outfitters and others to go right to the den site in March, and blow away the entire pack -something perfectly legal in areas where the wolf hunt will go to March 31st.
If the wolf hunt goes forward, a lot of the wolves in Idaho now are going to be sacrificed to the madness of Butch Otter, the IDFG commissioners, the legislature, outfitters, and all the rest of the wolf hating crowd. How many photos will it take this September of “harvested” wolf pups, barely 5 month olds, spread across national media, for Idahoans to wake up? I know wolves are smart, but a lot are going to be killed before they have a chance to learn to avoid man, and all the baits “sportsmen” will use to lure them in.
If you haven’t seen a wolf in Idaho, hurry and look in the next 3 weeks. If hunters aren’t shooting at them, then a lot of wolf supporters will be – to scare wolves. What a f—ing mess, this place called Idaho, run by spudheads.
Just clap your hands folks, she stepped in it again..
Lee – Your implication about moose doesn’t wash. Who wants to kill ALL the wolves in Alaska?
Lee,
Idaho as many times more wolves than Montana and Wyoming. I think they say there is supposed to be around 850 in Idaho and you can probably add at least 250 more to that number. We know of packs in North Idaho that are not on their maps of wolf packs. I know of 3 myself. I haven’t seen an updated map lately though. I’d almost be willing to bet that 250 would never be met anyway. Even if it were there probably missing at least that many in their counts. Most I know will not actively pursue wolves, we’re to busy hunting elk to worry about trying to find a wolf. Some hunters will likely stumble on a wolf or two but I doubt most will be to serious about it. Elk tastes a lot better than wolf does I’m sure.
Lee, your remarks are clouding the issue of killing wolves by state approved “contract” killers, which are not sportsmen, neither are they from “out of state”, nor do they even faintly resemble what you are trying to portray them as!
As with your other posts you obfuscate the issue by trying to tie your denial to the denouncing of Sarah Palin for SUPPOSED anti-substance hunters! What’s that all about? Don’t you have any facts to back up your denial, and resort to distractions, instead of admit you’re wrong?
Does Sarah Palin tie your undies up in knots, or do you understand that the facts of aerial wolf killing, as opposed to what the panty tiers are trying to represent it as?
Yes, I read most of your links, but I also check them out from other angles…You realize, of course, the truth is only one sided, if you can only see it from one side…
Tom – What I was pointing out was that out-of-staters do have a right to speak on practices “not in their backyard”. I did not say Alaska was trying to kill all the wolves. I proposed a hypothetical example to show that people in the “48″ can be concerned about and hope to influence what goes on “up there”.
Jes – “nor do they even faintly resemble what you are trying to portray them as!” Tell me what portrait is that?
From the Seattle PI:
“But the Feinstein-Miller legislation is supported by nine former members of Alaska’s Board of Game.
The Board of Game renewed its “predator-control” program seven years ago in response to lobbying from hunters. ”
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/archives/175954.asp?from=blog_last3
MikeL – I wouldn’t be surprised if there were as many wolves as you say in Idaho and the hunt will be tough.
Lee – You said, “I’ll bet if the state wanted to kill all the moose there would be a lot of people not in their backyard that would go to battle..”
Perhaps you are attempting to make a hypothetical but your insinuation is still that someone wants to kill all the wolves. That is ridiculous and a ridiculous hypothetical.
A more accurate hypothetical may have been to say that if someone wanted to aerial kill moose for the purpose of some kind of management control, etc………..
I’m not trying to be picky but it is bull crap like that that leads readers to swallow the bait that anyone who supports aerial predator management wants all the wolves dead.
Another ridiculous feature of the Feinstein/Miller bill is that it requires “the imminent collapse” of a game species before aerial killing can be implemented. Why do we have to wait for “imminent collapse”? And does that mean local, regional, statewide, nationally or in North America?
This is part of what is wrong with ESA. Whenever you take control of wildlife management out of the hands of scientists and put it in the hands of politicians, a friggin mess ensues and everybody loses.
Feinstein, Miller and Pelosi can’t even take care of their failures at home, why should they have any say on what goes on in Alaska?
“Shooting wildlife from airplanes is not sport: It is cruel and inhumane,” Feinstein said in a prepared statement. “It undermines the hunting principle of a fair chase and often leads to a slow and painful death for the hunted animals. The practice should be banned.”
1. Nobody in their right mind wants to pretend aerial hunting is SPORT hunting..It isn’t and never has been…and yet the fanatical wolf lovers want to outlaw it by characterizing it as “inhumane hunting”. It is not hunting but animal control done by or for the state to protect the game they have protected and saved by sound management. The fanatics have tried to make you believe that it opens up Alaskan wolves to aerial shooting for the sportsmen from other states….NOTHING could be further from the truth!
2. Feinstein wouldn’t know what was a slow and painful death was…unless you left her in the desert to starve for a few weeks….Aerial shooting is usually done with shotguns and buckshot, and the results are quick and efficient, quite different than disease and starvation, which drag an animal down slowly….
3. Anytime you mislead the public on matters like this, you are twisting the truth to your own ends…..The Devil is the master of this, and the rest are his subjects..Where do you stand, Lee?
““But the Feinstein-Miller legislation is supported by nine FORMER members of Alaska’s Board of Game.” (EMPHASIS MINE)
Former members who could easily be bribed, or otherwise misquoted, to give Miller the quote he uses in his own website!
Learning to think for yourself, yet, Lee?
The letter that was written and signed by the “former” Alaska Board of Game Commissioners, believe that the Federal Airborne Hunting Act of 1972, prohibits the use of flying machines to hunt game species.
http://www.defenders.org/resources/publications/policy_and_legislation/paw_letter_ak_bog_to_miller.pdf
I hear time and again about this and it being described as Alaska selling out-of-state hunting licenses to people and permitting them to hunt wolves using helicopters and airplanes.
As I have said many times before, a simple call to the Alaska Department of Fish and Game to get information on how to buy a license to go “hunt” wolves from an airplane, will give you all the information you need.
The Federal Airborne Hunting Act of 1972 does not have a loophole in it, as claimed by these nine former game commissioners. The Act clearly prohibits the use of aircraft for hunting.
Many states utilize aircraft for predator control and game management. Where’s the outrage? Why is it Alaska and not Texas?
Could it be for the same reason(?) 2.5 millions acres burning and 6.5 million
burned in 2004 and “we” want to ban wood stoves?
Political crap sticks to a lot of shoes…..
Here you go Ertz, another reply for your hard drive, still waiting for your service buddy..
I’ve been watching the sad sack clown web board again.
“Wilderness designations should not be the result of a quid pro quo. They should rise or fall on their own merits. We all understand that compromise is part of the legislative process, yet at the same time, I would submit that wilderness is not for sale. Simply put, I believe we should not seek the lowest common denominator when it comes to wilderness and saddle a wilderness designation with exceptions, exclusions, and exemptions. [...] There is nothing to be ashamed about with wilderness.”
Rep. Nick J. Rahall Chairman of the House Natural Resources Committee (D-WV)
EXCEPT THEY USED ALL OF IT AS COLLATERAL FOR THE LOANS FROM THE EUROPEAN WORLD BANK…
” There are a lot folks around who want to steal our land. . . plenty of them here in Idaho, but even worse ones in other states.”
Ralph Maughan.
No kidding, their foreign agents from the World Bank not American Ranchers..This guy is so out there…
Kill order out on Phantom Hill Pack
http://wolves.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/kill-order-out-on-phantom-hill-pack/#comment-83435
44 Responses to “Kill order out on Phantom Hill Pack”
David m Soule Says:
August 14, 2009 at 6:39 AM
You got to love it, all the nobleman comments about a rancher that in the end saved the wolves. Smart rancher, he looses 13 sheep and tells the IDGF let the wolves be and now he when the wolves kill more he can declare open season because he has in the past protected the animal. And he will say i really hated doing it but it was becoming to much. If the wolves are to stay their numbers need to be cut back, alot. ID has lost to much money this year from nonres hunters not showing up, some of you may cheer but this will spell disaster for the wolves if ID keeps loosing money the cause of the loss will be purged. And when it happens the ranchers can show how clean thier hands are by saying i tried to keep them alive i even told the IDGF not to kill em.
Looks like admittance to me below by Maughan
Ralph Maughan Says:
August 14, 2009 at 7:19 AM
David m Soule,
We had an earlier post and thread about the recent decline in out-of-state hunters to Idaho. You might want to read it.
Idaho Fish and Game and the outfitters have themselves to blame. After a decide <(typo Ralph ?, that’s decade) of telling the world that all the deer and elk have all been killed by wolves, did they think non-resident hunters wouldn’t believe them and go somewhere else?
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Everyone else is at fault with these people..All they do is finger point away from themselves..They should look at their own hands, there are three fingers on their own hands pointing back at them !
I know several resident hunters including myself who believe our own eyes and are hunting Montana and Colorado..We decided we would not spend money in a store with empty shelves…I will spend a few thousand $$$ in those states hunting, versus a few hundred $$$ in Idaho looking at trees and rocks and listening to hungry wolves howling..
How big is your freezer? Best just go to Colorado since all the elk have been killed in Montana by wolves also.
Idaho had only 25,000 elk last year by your own count and over 10,000 were killed by hunters last fall; I can see why their numbers might be a tad low this year.
We need verification from and independent ombudsman then, I will never believe IFGs books or reports again..ever.. I didn’t even see 10,000 hunters during last season..empty campgrounds what used to be full, in units 33-34-35-36-39-43-44-48-49-. I get around..
Greg,
I think most of the hunters from down there came up to North Idaho last year. Sad thing is, they found out we’ve got a lot of wolves up here also. Plus a lot I talked to didn’t like hunting in this thick timber. Actually our calf crop doesn’t look to bad right now butit sure seems like our fawns crop is low. I’m sure they’ll take a beating this winter though. Calf crops ar quite a bit lower in areas where wolves are most during the summer. We’re seeing a lot more game at lower elevations this summer and most say it’s because the wolves tend to stay higher. Wolves are moving down with the game though, recently we’ve been seeing wolf sign not to farfrom the house.
The way you can often distinguish real science from phony is that real science points out flaws in its own research. Phony science pretends there are no flaws.
True scientific method goes like this:
1. form a hypothesis
2. make predictions for that hypothesis
3. test the predictions
4. reject or revise the hypothesis based on the research findings
Boston University scientist Dr. David Ozonoff explains that ideas in science are themselves like “living organisms, that must be nourished, supported, and cultivated with resources for making them grow and flourish.” (Stauber p 205) Great ideas that don’t get this financial support because the commercial angles are not immediately obvious – these ideas wither and die.
Stauber documents the increasing amount of corporate sponsorship of university research. (206) This has nothing to do with the pursuit of knowledge. Scientists lament that research has become just another commodity, something bought and sold. (Crossen)
It is shocking when Stauber shows how the vast majority of corporate PR today opposes any research that seeks to protect: Public Health and The Environment
It’s a funny thing that most of the time when we see the phrase “junk science,” it is in a context of defending something that may threaten either the environment or our health. This makes sense when one realizes that money changes hands only by selling the illusion of health and the illusion of environmental protection. True public health and real preservation of the earth’s environment have very low market value.
Stauber thinks it ironic that industry’s self-proclaimed debunkers of junk science are usually non-scientists themselves. (255) Here again they can do this because the issue is not science, but the creation of images.
And the created image of wolves not decimating elk in Idaho needs a new line of junk science or projector…Because I’m still waiting for FWS and IFG biologists to point out their flaws…Instead of denying them..
Greg
Tell me, if we can’t believe IDFG stats on ANYTHING how can there be a reasonable discussion on the issue of elk.deer,wolf, “harvest”?
Believe only Greg? I think not.
He has 176 pound wolves running over the Idaho landscape; a population of 200,000 Idaho elk in 1995, and only 25,000 in 2008; volcanic craters in the Idaho batholith which are actualluy cirque lakes carved by glaciers during the Wisconsin glaciation in granite that cooled miles below the surface, millions of years ago, which has been exposed by erosion (but that takes a long time and Greg will hear none of that); Is Earth less than 5000 years old . . . . What about those extinct bone crushing wolves in Alaska 45,000 years ago … ignore them because they don’t fit into your perspective of the world.?
Lee said;
Greg
Tell me, if we can’t believe IDFG stats on ANYTHING how can there be a reasonable discussion on the issue of elk.deer,wolf, “harvest”?
I say
The only way is and independent ombudsman study, we can not get any honest media support, and IFG is protecting their interests which are 30+ million in revenue annually, in jeopardy of this truth getting out about the decimation and ungulate herds collapse.As well those revenues as of February were down by 30% – Cal Groens own words I heard him say it in person…
Lee said
Believe only Greg? I think not.
I say;
I have never told anyone to believe me, I have shared my findings, shared what I have personally seen in those hunt units I frequent, It is the responsibility of readers to research and seek the facts on their own..I only give another direction to look in as and alternative opton..What I continue to see is not what IFG is telling the public, their clients, or the hunting commun ity at large as well they continue to lie to non – resident hunters, attempting to coax them to idaho to hunt elk..
Lee said
He has 176 pound wolves
I say;
Not true, you are exaggerating, I have never claimed 176 pound wolves are running all over Idaho.. I shared that I had been told by and Private contractor and and Field agent of IFG that the contact has killed a 170 pound wolf..Both of these men will not come forth in public for fear of reprisal, as in loss of income..As well, I’ve known the two gentlemen for two decades and saw the proof myself..All field video and kill information is not public info, according to FWS, IFG…
As well a North Idaho Newspaper posted a photo last month and in the caption it says the wolf is 180 pounds..
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20090623.htm
Lee said;
running over the Idaho landscape; a population of 200,000 Idaho elk in 1995
My mistake, that was deer…Not elk..
, and only 25,000 in 2008
I say
Many Idahoans believe this number, it would not surprise me in the least.. I promise you there is not more than fifty thousand head state wide…I only found 150+ elk in the Unite 35 last fall, and I flew it.. Only 500-700 at the lowman winter range when there should be 2500…
Many Idahoans have written IFG and asked them where are our elk…
Lee said;
; volcanic craters in the Idaho batholith which are actually cirque lakes carved by glaciers during the Wisconsin glaciation in granite that cooled miles below the surface millions of years ago, which has been exposed by erosion (but that takes a long time and Greg will hear none of that);
I say
Once again you are being dishonest, you only seek to discredit people pointing to flaws in your agenda..I have owned and read Margaret Fuller’s Trails of the Frank Church Wilderness since it was available to the public, She explains about the batholiths in her book, I call my lake a crater, every one who goes there say it looks like a crater, I asked you a question recently after your comment informing me about the frank church batholiths, I asked, how do i tell if it is and implosion or explosion when the batholith cooled…I was and am aware of the geological history and make up of that country…
Lee said
Is Earth less than 5000 years old . . . . What about those extinct bone crushing wolves in Alaska 45,000 years ago … ignore them because they don’t fit into your perspective of the world.?
I say;
I have never shared my thoughts on the age of this planet, since you insist here goes for the first time, I believe in creation, I believe the creator could have used rocks and components from any where in this universe which would explain rock formations being billions of years old…I believe one Biblical Day quite possibly is 7000 years, thus man has been around fighting over all this nonsense for seven days, 49 thousand years…I cannot prove it, and you cannot disprove it…
That was a pathetic stab in the dark Lee…Or is it Ralph..??????????????
Let me know if I can be of further assistance…
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20090623.htm
That is a 5′ 10 or 6′ tall and 175 to 185 pound man holding that wolf in the photo..
I know who it is, but i ain’t saying..
You see why they ban us from their web sites and refuse debates, and why they use anonymous identification on our blog locations.. You see why why they only seek to harm via discrediting and simply refuse to open their minds and see the other sides evidence…It is called CONTEMPT PRIOR TO INVESTIGATION… Truth means nothing to agenda seekers…
Get the hell out my back yard..
I thot I knew what a big wolf looked like. omg, greg. and you pack-out with them things around?
Come on Greg – be real – wolves are “pathological preditors”? Anthropomorphism at the extreme, worse than any Disney stuff.
I am old enough to remember Disney hour long documentaries at movie theaters back in the 1950s – before TV in our house, Nature’s Half Acre which showed time lapse photography of plants blooming, The Living Prairie in which the birth of a bison was shown – the outcry against that scene was deplorable – don’t show kids actual birthings; and then Bear Country. To me Disney was enlightening, opening a world foreign but exciting to me. All that sounds common place now but it was new at that time. It was not about Bambi but nature.
Greg, Sorry I missed your previous response to the crater lake question.
Any batholith, by definition, is formed many feet below the surface from molten rock. These are later exposed by erosion of the overlaying rocks. Since the magma cools slowly (depth) the minerals have time to aggregate into larger crystals than if the magma was to come to the surface (rapid cooling, small crystals. like basalt in the Craters of the Moon). The “crater” you visit in the FCW is not the result of any kind of explosion or implosion but is the result of headward glacial erosion at the upper end of an active glacier in the snow accumulation zone, probably, during the most recent Wisconsin glaciation prior to 15,000 years BP. Check out cirque on the internet – geology is probably the easiest science to unterstand via pictures and diagrams. Always been my favoite. Google Earth! Hours of fascination.
Greg,
Go to Raulphs page, I think the post about Idaho not being able to give our wolves away. It states that wolfs reproduce so fast that giving them away wouldn’t do much good anyway. If that;s the case and really what they think then why in the hell are they so worried about a hunting season? Seems to me a guy or gal can punch holes in about 90% of the crap they try to say. Lots of the rhetoric I’ve read on their page seem to contradict themselves.
That’s one big dog. I haven’t seen anything that big yet. Have seen some awfully big tracks though. We had a high today of 64 degrees, damn global warming.
I read that batholiths some times, not always, would implode or blow out during cooling, which would collapse the surface above it, on the web, and in Fullers book..
I’ve seen some wolves down here that looked like deer, until I put the bino on them, There are some big dogs cruising around here.. Look at the head on that wolf, and look at the mans head.. ha ha..
I read that Mike, I go there and see what those dummies are up to all the time..excuse me, those sad cases and their contradictions and illusions..
Global Warming, another example of their science.. SCAM…
Leo J. O’Donovan, Sovereign Jesuit. and director of Disney since 1996, what do Jesuits do ? They decieve all…Throw your damn Pepe Orsini polluted TVs in the trash, it is simply one of the tools being used to take down your country…This Jesuit is one of the 20 most powerful Jesuits in the American Provincial Empire. These damn pro wolves groups are doing several things things, destroying ranching, public grazing, and hunting, we watching the destruction of Property Rights, and their turning your populance against gun owner ship, how many industries do we let the Jesuits destroy with NAFTA – GATT – and this perverted subjugated ESA, and their U.N. before people say enough, of this Knight of Malta and Jesuit subterfuge of your Nation, and your Rights, if these people could fella’s they would strangle us all..Including Lee, Ertz, and Maughan, they hate those people worse than they hate you and I, Why, because they betray their own country, and would never be trusted in the NWO…to be loyal to the Jesuit King, Only fools willing to except the Infallible Power of the Temporal Vicar of Christ will be slaves in the NWO, every one else dies…Wake up.. http://corporate.disney.go.com/corporate/bios/leo_odonavan.html
I am a hunter, I hunted down who our enemy is and it is them what are the 4th Vow Military Vicars..for Rome..Your Founders fought them..some day we are going to as well..
The Satanic Disney – Listen up, I am a reader of the occultic symbology, it is a language, it is the anceint mystery religions dating to Ancient Egypt and beyond, I fully understand the hegelian Dialectic.. The Illuminati control Disney, and the Jesuit controls the Illuminati..And all science being forced on us is coming from them as well.. WAKE UP
Pay close attention to the hidden sex exposed in the video !!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWZYiADYtHE
THE SKILL
OF
LYING, THE ART OF DECEIT THE DISNEY BLOOD LINE
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/the_disney_bloodlinept1.htm
I have this authors books, Edward Abbey.. He is and environmentalists legend so to speak… Having read a lot of his works it seems to me his modern day following should to…
Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners. Edward Abbey..
I agree Edward, so then why are 99% of today’s environmentalist groups following the think tank advice of those very people, Knights of Malta, Politicians, generals, priests, and other Club of Rome lies..
And this one ;
It is my belief that the writer, the free-lance author, should be and must be a critic of the society in which he lives. It is easy enough, and always profitable, to rail away at national enemies beyond the sea, at foreign powers beyond our borders who question the prevailing order.
But the moral duty of the free writer is to begin his work at home; to be a critic of his own community, his own country, his own culture. If the writer is unwilling to fill this part, then the writer should abandon pretense and find another line of work: become a shoe repairman, a brain surgeon, a janitor, a cowboy, a nuclear physicist, a bus driver. Edward Abbey..
Amazing isn’t it, this further proves who the Maughan crowd really are..
Banned from debating them, censored, Spud Head, Sad Case, OUT…. ha ha
Greg
“I read that batholiths some times, not always, would implode or blow out during cooling, which would collapse the surface above it, on the web, and in Fullers book.”
Try reading somewhere else that is more scientific.
I am not familiar with Fuller’s book. Give me your other sources on the web. However, since batholiths form far below the surface, under great pressure, and are cold by the time they are exposed at the surface by erosion, implosion or explosion is not possible. Your lake is in a cirque. Glaciers carve landforms over thousands of years! Idaho, my favorite state, has many beautiful examples.
Then the implosion or explosion could have happened when they were hot ? That was how it read, I’ll dig it up…
Brian Ertz of the Western Watersheds Group just last night on The Ralph Maughan web site – http://wolves.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/kill-order-out-on-phantom-hill-pack/ said this about IDFG
“The bighorn sheep issue is a profound example of the lost credibility that IDFG squandered in Cowtowing to ranching interests over the interests of proper wildlife management.
Mark, I respect the position that you’re in & the fact that you took the time to contribute your thoughts on this forum. That’s big & it’s welcome. But having sit in on the bighorn working group & watching that process unfold – including the auction tag being pulled out from WSF & granted to SFW – having read the memos & understanding the history with Brackett et al on the Dave Parrish demotion fiasco – and most importantly, watching IDFG cave to politically powerful ranchers and their surrogates at WS apply aggressive pressure to liberally spite-kill wolves in the most arbitrary fashion & without any regard to actual culpability — I must say : all the good faith that may or may not be coming from you & the boots on the ground at IDFG is no substitute for the lost legitimacy associated with these indications of a deeply politicized department.
I am not principly opposed to a hunt on wolves – my advocacy has more to do with ecosystem function, as you mention, and its preclusion associated with public lands ranching – including impact to big game populations – that said, IDFG’s policy on wolf depredation of livestock is archaic and wrong. “problem wolves” are more often than not associated with problem livestock operations on public ground & IDFG has no mechanism for halting public expenditures associated with “controls” even when it is flagrantly apparent that there is negligence – as on the East Fork of the Salmon & in & around Stanley as 2 examples – one of which Lynne describes above.
Good luck with the upcoming circus. & please direct your staff to respond to the public’s information act requests – it’s been a hell of a time & I think it’s really disengenous to be asking for good-faith trust when we get the cold shoulder on requests for documents associated with the state’s management of wolves. What’s IDFG hiding ? ”
Seems we agree IDFG is lying all the time…And they are, to both sides of this wolf debate, as well the other manipulation going on behind closed doors is Federal money and if it is not FWS blackmailing IDFG then it is another Federal Facilitator doing it…
Not only are they hiding the truth about ungulate decimation from potential tag buying clients to protect revenue, if the ungulates are truly in dire decline, and I don’t just believe they are I know they are, then your side of this fiasco which all of the above players has created, are also going to strengthen your argument that IDFG cannot manage Idaho’s wildlife…Their jobs are on the line along with falling revenue…
The people on the ground are credible..
I respect this scientist James McCanney, also Nikola Tesla, John Spears, Henry Moray, Stan Meyer, and lets not forget Royal Raymond Rife, all independent thinkers not influenced by government funds..Why..Because the old saying goes.. His bread I eat his song I sing..All those groups standing behind this debacle, known as the ESA- The Sierra Club, and others, are Rockefeller creations, and are funded by think our we manipulators, if they start telling us the truths about science…by by funding..
McCanney says below
there is ONE thing that you need to remember to always use as a test … a litmus test so to speak … for everyone that you encounter … whether they are a talk show host or guest on a show or someone claiming “decades or research” (but no proof of it) and their new book or the national news announcers or blogger hosts and their anonymous trekky followers … or military leaders or congressmen or bankers or stockbrokers or newspaper editors or science news reporters and their glossy magazines (and TV productions) and the tier II scientists who fill their pages with useless dribble that could not possibly be true … or CEOs of aerospace companies who are more interested in profits and stock options than creating a real space program … or the 99.999% of all scientists and engineers whose entire existence comes directly or indirectly from government funding … the list could take up pages … you know … those people out there who are trying to influence what you should do and how you should think … and expecting you to pay their way either directly or indirectly … they all belong to the same clubhouse … there is a single simple litmus test for all … WHO BUTTERS THEIR BREAD ?!?!?! follow that trail and you will have gotten through the first line of their defenses … many times it is difficult to follow as they hide it well … look for example for “no visible sign of income” … yet they seem to be there traveling all over the place and making public appearances and sending you “their message” … or is it really their message … also look for people with an ego that needs stroking … give them a badge and a little notoriety and … WALA !!! you have someone who will go to the ends of the earth to carry the prescribed message … and attack anyone who does not cater to their home source of support … and lastly … look for their line of direct or indirect government funding or the support groups with incomes dependent on supporting the endless barage of garbage they try to pawn off on you the public etc etc … it is simple … just ask … “where did they get the staff and money to support their wonderful web pages – productions – daily propaganda” … just ask … WHO BUTTERS THEIR BREAD ??? and this will help you understand who is saying what and why … jim mccanney (P.S. i have always refused to take part in this government funding racket and have nothing to do with any of it)
Hey Tom, heads up, I told you guys, The Sawtooth Zone is units 33-34-35-36 and those are units I frequent quite often, look what the South East District IDFG manager posted today at Ralph Maughans web page.. This is what I have been saying for years and they called me crazy, censored me, banned me.. http://wolves.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/kill-order-out-on-phantom-hill-pack/
77.
Mark Gamblin (IDFG) Says:
August 16, 2009 at 4:08 PM
All: I did ask for this with my first post and appreciate ALL of the responses to my comments. I’ve been monitoring this blog and the on-going dialog on wildlife management issues for some time. Internet Blogs and websites are increasingly important public forums for the public and government agencies if we take advantage of the opportunity to communicate. That’s my purpose here. As a Regional Supervisor (Southeast Region) one of my responsibilities is to represent the Department and Commisssion on policies and programs that relate to these issues. I will try to do that – when I have the knowledge or experience to answer questions or explain Department positions. My goal is to contribute to a better mutual understanding of these important issues. You can judge how well I do.
Lynn – in the Lolo and Sawtooth Zones the recent, sharp decline in elk productivity and recruitment I referred to is due to wolf predation of productive cows and their calves, not hunting mortality. The radio-telemety data we have for cows and calves in those zones gives us the fate of each collared elk and allows us to accurately estimate the wolf predation rate of cows and calves. Having good baseline data for these elk populations from previous years, including hunting harvest data, we can say with certainty that wolf predation has pushed elk production and recruitment in these two zones below levels that have required substantial reductions in the elk hunting opportunity that was allowable with essentially the same habitat when wolves were introduced. HOW we manage this new wildlife population dynamic (elk-wolf) and the necessary changes in public uses and benefits of those resources is of course our challenge.
Ralph and JB – as Ralph said, government and government agencies are inextricably part of our public process. IS the IDFG inappropriately influenced by partisan politics such that our statutory responsibilities are not being professionally carried out? Or could this simply be differences in value driven wildlife management preferences that are part and parcel of our democratic/republican system of government is is inherently confrontational? The Idaho Fish and Game Commission driven system of wildlife management is an example of democratic representative government supported by highly trained technical support staff (IDFG). It is also an excellent example of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation that is responsible for most of the abundance and quality of wildlife and wildlife habitat in North America. When you ask: How can/should wildlife agencies be “reformed” – I suggest the discussion be considered with this history and reality included in the discussion. JB, not knowing your background, I won’t assume anything about your understanding of this or other state wildlife agencies. Having worked for two state wildlife management agencies (Idaho and Alaska) and being familiar with most of the western state wildlife management agencies, I can’t agree that contemporary agency rosters are loaded with “aging white men from rural backgrounds who hunt and fish). The demographic composition of state wildlife agencies is broader than that statement describes. Should those personnel rosters be selected for a more diverse, inclusive demographic make-up? If there is a failure of those agencies to serve the public they are responsible to or to effectively, professionally steward the public’s wildlife resource that is because of the age, racial or background profiles of those agencies – certainly that should change.
We share several positions on wildlife agency funding. You may know that last year IDFG conducted a broad, statewide information and education effort with the public and elected leaders to explain our funding dilema and make a strong case for a BROADENED and DIVERSIFIED funding base. Our traditional funding formula (user fee funds: hunting and fishing fees matched with federeal excise taxes on hunting and fishing equipment) is simply not adequate to keep pace with the increasing suite of responsibilities wildlife management agencies face across the nation. Our non-game program is especially vulnerable, though it has seen substantial growth in the past 20 years. It depends on federal SWG funds, specialty license plate revenues (bluebird, elk, cutthroat license plates) and a handfull of other non-tradition sources of funding. State government, including the legislature and governor’s office, recognizes this need. HOW to broaden the base is the dilema. General funds are so stretched and other state funding needs so great that suggesting general funding for IDFG programs has been a non-starter. Other innovative sources such as a sales tax increase has been a boon for Missouri and Arkansas, but those are the only state I know of who have had success with that approach. We are receptive to any rational suggestions for alternative funding formulas. In the mean time, the IDFG will be predominantly funded by license/tag receipts, matching DJ and PR dollars and a large amount of federal “soft” money strictly dedicated to anadromous fishery and federal mitigation programs. Removing any and all authority of state boards or commissions (F&G Commission) would be a radical change that would ultimately weaken the firewall between wildlife management and the partisan political interference that you fear. The Commission system is intended to provide precisely the insulation that you desire. If you are serious about a DIVERSE group of stakeholders to provide consultation inplace of contemporary Fish and Game Commissions or Boards, with authority to set policy and establish wildlife management programs that satifsy the public needs and desires – I don’t believe the end result would be what you desire.
Brian and Ken – there are several assertions that I am simply not informed of and can’t respond to. I can say that we respond to FOIA requests on a timely basis as the law requires us to. If there are requests that you believe aren’t being responded to in the spirit of the law, I may or may not be able to provide additional insight – OFFLINE. These are legal requests that are almost always handled by our legal counsel. I (and other Department personnel) can’t respond to personnel actions for several good reasons.
Ken – I don’t believe the Lolo or Sawtooth Zones have experienced “unnaturally high” elk numbers in our era of influence. The thesis that wolves would or will afford the watersheds (ecosystems) in those geographic areas a benefit by relieving some unnatural effect of elk browsing or other impact is simplistic. Idaho elk populations have had a top predator controlling elk production and elk impacts on the landscape for centuries. That predator is us.
OK, this is too much for one post. I look forward to a vigorous dialog.
Wow how did Ralphie let some intellect get posted there and no response that would show that fish and game are nothing but a bunch of dumb-asses? I cant imagine anyone there that will agree that the human species has the intellect to manage for sustainable hunting and predator control. Maybe I am wrong.
Do you think it dawned on them they are being recorded, ha ha..
Yep, their attacking him, saying he is for sportsmen, the anti predator anti wolf crowd.. They will never except the fact that the wolves are wiping out their own prey base..even if IDFG confirms it..
What is amazing is the North American hunting model has over 90 years shown that we do not hate predators or are anti predator, we in fact protected them with correct management practices.. Now the predator lovers are going to love the predators to death..
The nation sleeps, the trojan horse known as environmentalism sits there in the nations square…the few wise inhabitants watch while the majority who allowed it into the nation sleep, drunk on their wine…
While Rome burns and Nero fiddles…
I should laugh at the ant-hunters, since what have they contributed to the return of wildlife, as every hunter who buys a license, or any item of hunting that is taxed by the Robinson-Pittman Act that both increases habitat and provides protection for the game the antis had had no use for protecting…
But their attacks on hunting like this one from Maughan’s site leave me with little pleasure for the fact they neither have any knowledge of how hunters have contributed to the wildlife we have today, and neither do they have any desire to want to acknowledge it…see this by JB:
“Due to the fact that IDF&G posts pictures of the the commissioners I was able to reasonably ascertain their age, gender, and ethnicity. All appear to be middle-aged, white males. And again, 6/7 claim to be hunters and/or anglers. From my perspective, I don’t believe this is any sort of “insulation” against political influence. In fact, rather than represent broad public interests, this commission is composed of the very same people (hunters and anglers) as agency decision-makers; the very same people to whom the agency has traditionally catered. How can such a partisan composition claim to broadly represent the public’s interest in wildlife management?
That’s just plain wrong….yet look how many of these people are believing it because they have no idea of how it has been hunters all along who have cared enough for the game which has been preserved and protected today!
This is excerpted from the Sierra Club’s site as a letter from Carl Pope:
http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/199605/ways.asp
“It’s not only presidential candidates who have forgotten the love affair America’s hunters and anglers have with the land. Environmentalists too have allowed occasional conflicts with hunting organizations to obscure the profound debt our wild places owe to sportsmen and sportswomen.
“That tradition of stewardship started with Daniel Boone and his brother Squire, who lobbied the pre- revolutionary Kentucky legislature for bills to protect wildlife habitat and grazing lands. It was hunters who persuaded the U.S. Supreme Court that wildlife, even when it is on private property, is owned by the public, and should be managed for public purposes. In 1937, hunters lobbied Congress to pass the Pittman-Robinson Act, an 11 percent tax on hunting equipment which, combined with license fees, now provides $700 million a year for protection of wildlife habitat on public lands. And Ducks Unlimited alone has conserved an estimated 7.2 million acres of waterfowl habitat.
Maybe they need to open their eyes and shut their mouths…and learn.
I know, now they think they can hi jack all the funds for their agenda..and in fact IDFG has used funds improperly to cater to them, now they think they own everything, funny, steal our funds and at the same time blame us for their mistakes..
If those hunters hunt wolfs by breaking the laws that protect them maybe it might be a good time to bring out my M82A and hunt the hunters, see if they like being on that side of the shoot….sick basters!!
wolfs are a breed of dog. we need to protect them…
You know what, I’m damn tired of you bastards calling hunters criminals, Maughan is even claiming Idaho hunters are going to shoot two wolves and tag one wolf, Yet nobody sites where Idaho has had several wolves illegally shot during the last several deer and elk hunting seasons..
And only one or two known to be illegally shot near a road in the entire state.. A hunting license according to you dog lovers is a permit to violate laws, and act as rogues, BULLSHIT..And this clown threatens to come out with a 50BMG and shoot at or shoot hunters in the field.. I should call the FBI right now you little coward bastard…
Wolf Tags go on sale August 24th…So far two pro wolf advocates have threatened to break the law – Frank Kar and Lynne Stone have threatened to interfere with legal hunts..over this stupid dog..
Thats about it for me, Now I just might change my mind and go kill a wolf…
MSGT, why don’t you go down to the local pound and adopt them all….there’s quite a few species of dog there, and who knows, you might even get along with one or two….that way you could say you’re protecting them…
There was a fellow here in Florida, that went around killing hunters…killed two or three, as I remember….and when the police caught up with him, he pulled a pair of woman’s panties over his head, and shot himself in the head…..Go figure…
Lynne Stone Says:
August 18, 2009 at 6:28 PM
“Smitty – the Phantoms sometimes leave Unit 48, in the Southern Mountain zone, and go over Galena Pass into Unit 36, the Sawtooth Zone, where the hunt starts in 13 days, is for seven months, and is for 55 wolves. I think the Phantoms have more to fear from the rabid anti-wolf crowd, some of which live in southern Blaine County, than Wildlife Services. The Phantoms are the most visible and most accessible pack in the Southern Mountain zone. The anti-wolf segment is likely slobbering over the chance to kill these beautiful black wolves, and parade them around Sun Valley and Ketchum. Am hoping national and world media will come to document this atrocity. In the meantime, wolf supporters must be getting ready to do a lot of target practicing around the dawn hours in the Phantoms territory.”
“I think the Phantoms have more to fear from the rabid anti-wolf crowd, some of which live in southern Blaine County, than Wildlife Services.”
–Lynne Stone—
Their so paranoid over at that blog, the phantom pack is in the Smokey Mountains hunt unit.. Unbelievable what these people can dream up over there.. Calling hunters law breakers before the darned hunt has even started, and Stone threatens to interfere with legal hunts and harass big game.. OMG..that lady is crazy.. And this death threat Frank Kar above… Unit 48 might end being the OK corral…
I think I’ll go to a nice quiet high mountain lake for some fishing.. The people in this Valley are out their freaking minds…
Disney Science theatre.
“In fact, rather than represent broad public interests, this commission is composed of the very same people (hunters and anglers) as agency decision-makers; the very same people to whom the agency has traditionally catered. How can such a partisan composition claim to broadly represent the public’s interest in wildlife management?”
They’re probably California imports, Greg…..what else do you expect?
Believe me, those people didn’t grow up making a living form the land….or they would have more respect for the people who have and do…
Their John Dewey John Rockefeller Robots..