Panel Discussions On Wolves A True Reflection
April 24, 2009
I was just reading an article in the KPVI.com website in regards to a panel discussion that was held at the Idaho State University in Pocatello, Idaho on wolves. We know debates about wolves become emotional and passionate and as you have come to expect, I’ll add flame to that fire this morning.
Those in attendance?
Western Watersheds Project, the Defenders of Wildlife and the Wolf Recovery Foundation. Also a wildlife manager from Idaho Fish and Game, a Fish and Wildlife leader from Wyoming and a past president of the Idaho Cattle Association.
KPVI.com chose to select comments made by three different representatives on the panel. First up, Mike Jimenez:
Mike Jimenez, Wyoming U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service: “If you’re a hunter, an outfitter, it’s like ‘Hey, we’d like to hunt those things. These guys are kinda competing with us now. If you’re someone who really likes wolves, they think this is really cool and if you’re a scientist you’re looking at prey selection but there’s this perspective and perspective grows.”
Second up, a “wolf advocate”:
“There’s no recognition for the tropic cascade of affect wolves have on the ecosystem, the beneficial affect they have on all wildlife. There’s no way for that to be realized under state management.”
And third, Jennifer Ellis, Idaho Cattle Association:
“I don’t think that’s fair to anybody to not know at what point they can protect their own property, even if it’s their own private property.”
Obviously, this is not a complete representation of comments made but I’ll bet it’s pretty darn close. First let’s take a look at what Jennifer Ellis, a representative of the Idaho Cattle Association, said. Nothing said putting down those who want to protect the wolf. Her only comment concerned EVERYONE’s loss of right to protect their property. Very reasonable concern.
Mike Jimenez attempted to be diplomatic in explaining that each and every person has a unique perspective on wolves. He didn’t condemn anyone’s notions. He simply tried to explain that this is what is being dealt with in finding a solution.
But the wolf advocate appears to be negative, dishonest and lacking in the willingness to acknowledge that biologists have ability to manage wildlife. “No recognition” on all the good things wolves do to our ecosystem.
“There’s no way”, says the wolf advocate, and also finds the need to put down the State of Idaho to say that there’s nobody in Idaho capable of properly managing wolves.
And this makes it difficult to move forward.
Tom Remington
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” Second up a wolf advocate”
There is no way we are ever going to recognize anything other than what we imagine for the non- tropic over cascade ill effect wolves have on the ecosystem. The non beneficial effect wolves have on other wildlife left non-managed by Idaho, due to our real interference as advocates for one species only the wolf and , no other species interest’s us, and we will never admit F.W.S. can never realize proper wolf management themselves even when it has been proven they can not manage shit, and they lied and we lied to for our cause.. We have the bucks and you don’t. We will never admit F.W.S. has caused Idaho’s failures due to financial control of that states I.F.G. agency, policies making the state a puppet in effect and dropping F.W.S. from the view of responsibility..
Beleive that was Ralphie Maughan. His “performance” during the PBS Dialogue on wolves also spoke volumes as to his demeanor and “intelligence.” What a representative huh? ICA rep Jennifer was great- and Tom you’re perspective on these people was right on the money as usual.
I have watched Maughans wildlife blog for about a month now. When confronted with views that indicate you disagree with their views and show the hipocracy of the wolf lovers views there, they stop letting you debate them. It is not necessarily the fish and game that dont know how to manages wolves, in Maughans and cronies belief, it is all non-Maughan biologist opinion. They feel that man has destroyed the environment and it is only going to be wolves that have a chance to FIX it. If only we all stop looking, listening, and speaking it will all be just fine. The ecosystem will once again be balanced and the hills will come alive with the sound of music (howling).
Agreed, Maughan is a Nazi moderator.. And it’s their opinion at his blog or the highway for ya via deletion. I goofed around there for a couple days after the Hailey wolf meeting and just hung it up, their so incredibly non-credible at that site I couldn’t stand it and realized no fair debate would take place… That blog has nothing to do with facts, and is the censorship blog against facts..Of course when we run into 501(c)3 tax exempt status people, the disinfo seems to be much worse, obviously some one signing off on Maughans tax exempt status has his webbles in their fist..
If it were only science, it would be so much easier. But it’s not that way anymore or maybe it never was and I too buried my head in the sand. No, it’s political and the need to promote agendas. What happens then is just what has happened in this debate.
Jay you are right. If you don’t agree with everything I say and believe, you are wrong. That’s a bad approach and accomplishes little in the long run. People then feel the need to not quite tell the exact truth and then it goes a bit further until outright lies are perpetuated and passed on as fact. We become so bent on pushing our own ideals and agendas we resort to lying. Another tactic is to hand pick someone with a label who will agree with you.
This isn’t just in the wolf debate. Look at our court proceedings where we go find the most notorious of “expert” witnesses, pay them whatever their fee is so that they will agree with you.
It’s a tough fight to promote what’s right and truthful. When you opt for the truth, all those “tools” used by the other side are not in your arsenal – only the truth. Use it wisely!
Greg F, I snuck into the wolf lovers at Maughans sanctuary for about a week. I offered an unbiased opinion and offered neutral contribution for a few days. But as I was allowed to speak more and more I tried more and more to challenge their ideals. When Brian Ertz thought he would be cute with me, I didnt back down and Ralph wouldnt tolerate it. The diverse opinion I offered could not be allowed they called it religion. http://wolves.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/long-wandering-wolf-found-dead-in-ne-colorado/#comment-78311
Tom, frustration makes one beat his own meat, and drive to get to the good part of a situation is frustrating in its own light. I am sick of radical dumb ass-ed-ness running things and having the loudest voice in things I dont believe in. I tend to believe in things that you deliver in and your blog and therefore am thankful for my ability to contribute. I hope that others wake up or at least have the balls to voice an alternate opinion that can be scrutinized, or have the faith to share a real opinion too.
I was watching Jay, they simply have no answer to justify themselves except delete. I challenged Ertz in person here, and with private email doing a study on barium and aluminum being in 100 dirt samples across southern Idaho, from Lowman-Bear Valley – Featherville-WoodRiver Valley…over a two hundred mile range, proving the aerosols campaign incorrectly called the chem-trail is in fact and actuality and is killing trees in mass, and damaging habitat..only to fluster him into ignoring me, as did SOS forests also…I did the study and tested the soil samples due to a scientist’s letter i received advising doing this study as he had done so and found the same results..Seeing millions of standing dead trees all in the same place gave me the incentive to do it…Once the tree roots are weakened by the foreign substance then the beetle moves in, healthy trees resist the beetle, so I believe the scientist being scoffed over the scientist being hailed…and took the initiative to prove it to myself…And then the Obama team comes out and says ” We are thinking pollution injection to fight global warming is a possible option” well gee wiz, the U.N. and our own O.N.I. have been doing this injection for twenty years, gee, how long have we been seeing mass tree deaths ? Ertz just ran away like the brain washed kindergarten baby he really is…But hey man his grammar ain’t half bad..
Tom Remington, thanks for providing me this space and opportunity. Although I have submitted nothing recently I have kept up on recent and timely news from your informative site.
This is in response to Jay-m and Greg Farber commenting on being cut off from dialog on Ralph Maughan’ s Wildlife News (RMWN) because they presented an opposing view. I don’t think they have a convincing arguements.
On the site listed in Jay’s post he commented 5 times in a lead started regarding the killing of a wolf that traveled over 1000 miles, as tracked by satelite, from YNP through Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming again, and finally to end up dead in north central Colorado, cause under investigation.
On the BBB Jay-M on April 24th, 2009 5:07 pm said
“When confronted with views that indicate you disagree with their views and show the hipocracy of the wolf lovers views there, they stop letting you debate them.”
Jay-k’s comments on RMWN regarding the wolf found dead in Colorado:
1. kchester, out of curiosity do you believe in God?
2. I think that GOD created all of this for all that exist, not just your furry friends.
3. those of you that prefer the wolves existance over human indicates some sort of morbid affiliation to animal attraction. Maybe after you approve Gay marriage we will all acceppt animal lust too. You put an animal on a pedestal to idolize and you relinquish all moral value. Its not about religion. All creatures and things are GOD given and man is the steward of his environment, animals dont read. Least as I can tell the environment isnt wrecked. If Man is the cause of all that is wrong then why dont you be the first to become the martyr that you all so want to follow?
4. This statement burns my ass!
“If all human life on this planet ceased to exist..life would go on as nature intended”. My thought is that God did not intend for this to be. I dont dispise wolves, and I dont thump the bible. I think that all of us are responsible for our own actions. Putting human life in the light of being the reason for all that is wrong is a false ideal. Humans have a choice. The person that killed the wolf is an ass! When you lump everyone into the same catagory its not fair. I take personal offense to people that promote this kind of crap and conceptualize “The great white hunter” or “the rancher mentality” how about just “the guy is an ass”? As far as encroaching on wolves habitat thats the way that it is. Until God reduces the human population or man chooses to do it, there are going to be more and more people. If you keep pushing those that grow the food out what are we going to do, eat each other?
5. Brian Ertz, I dont claim to be annointed I just dont apologize for for my existance. My only ties to cattle growers are to use the products they produce. The midget minded mentality that all we need to do is sprinkle fairy dust and wave a magic wand to produce food is absurd. Maybe if your compassion for humans were at the level that your compassion for animals are at we wouldnt be having this discussion and God wouldn’t be frowning at you.
These are the comments following Jay’s last post.
ProWolf in WY Says:
April 20, 2009 at 10:34 PM
To try to change the topic back to the wolf, is there any news as to how it died?
Ralph Maughan Says:
April 20, 2009 at 11:49 PM
Not yet, ProWolf in WY.
Note: I removed Jay-k from further posting because of his tendency to start religious arguments.
My view is that if people want to argue about religion, it shouldn’t be on a wildlife blog because the argument will be endless and divisive.
“Greg F Farber on April 24th, 2009 5:50 pm
.. And it’s their opinion at his blog or the highway for ya via deletion. I goofed around there for a couple days after the Hailey wolf meeting and just hung it up, their so incredibly non-credible at that site I couldn’t stand it and realized no fair debate would take place… ”
Greg, you were shut off because you always try to bring in the “big agenda”. It was not because of your ideas on wolves – Tony Mayer posted 11 times vs your 18. He stuck to the issue of wolves and wildlife; you go on a tangent about secret agendas, including bibles and god. You were not debating a wolf issue. Ralph did not ban you from the site but did stop comments on that thread.
Hey Lee, If I would have been allowed to to continue on maughans wolf sanctuary, We could have further discussed their wolf preference to human existance. Near as I could tell they were willing to blame hunters or ranchers for the precious colorado wolves demise. Why couldnt it have been natural causes? In there opinion wolves are the mighty spirit that lives within them and they show no tolerance for those that differ in opinion. I had posted on several other threads and they tried to educate me to their ideals. I wasnt triing to be a preacher they chose that “OUT” because I hurt ERTZ “FEELING”.I am sure they had an Idea that I was going to bring up a little closet hypocricy and Maughan didnt want to deal with it. Thats just fine, they didnt “Educate” me.
Your a liar Lee, I did no such commenting at all…And I never said I was banned, every time I reply there my post is awaiting moderation..I used a couple of examples in one comment about evolution, mathematical and biblical knowledge..Period..And I said it was an example and did not wish to change the thread topic..You guys were claiming the Smithsonian Institute Document from the 70s concerning North American Species of wolves is old unreliable science.YET 150 year old DARWIN HORSE SHIT SCIENCE FLYS HIGH OVER THEIR..Once i started in the direction of refuting this claim Ralph shut down the thread and made the same false accusation against me you just did…You people are not credible and your liars..The “Big Agenda” is a reality mister and you will face it one day sooner or later…
I made 10 comments between two threads at Maughans site…I merely used examples and then was forced to defend weak refutations against those examples…they never defended the thesis that the Smithsonian Institutions Wolf Species Documents of the 70s is bad unreliable science..Your arguments have no depth Lee, and neither does Ralph’s, you people will not stand up and honestly debate the evidence…The over saturation of wolves in Idaho has decimated elk herds, decimated deer herds, and destroyed local and rural business’s all across Idaho, Wolves are running in towns, in winter, Wolves are destroying managed hunting opportunity’s for Idahoan’s..People like Brian Ertz and Jon Marvel have ruined other families lives with their bullshit, while sitting at home admiring their own children…and their own families.. making a living off of other peoples ruin..families with children…That’s what you people do, well I got news for you Buddy, it is going to come home to your front porch someday.. KARMA BABY…and it is coming your way…the beast you people support will bite you too…You got my middle finger you coward…
Greg, what do you think about Idaho passing a bill regarding killing bighorn sheep on public land to prevent transfer of disease from domestics to the native sheep?
Did otter veto this ?
I think it is the Repulsicans attempting to further your Democraps cause by furthering the big agenda to destroy hunting, private property ownership, gun ownership..So carry on with this nonsense of killing the bighorn sheep to protect domestic sheep and further foment the hatred towards ranchers, hunters, and a state run game and fish agency.
.It is called cointel operations, and it is at this level..It further divides the people, and raises the hackles of the people, and causes the failure of all programs and relinquishes control to the facilitator of the problem, the feds, and their boss the United Nations..Who eventually will mandate all litigation and management over all states lands right out in the open, ignoring your wishes, and mine…Like it or not this is where we are heading, I do not like it.
Or so your mind can comprehend what I mean, the republican is helping to prove they can not manage shit and your democrats are right..All by intent..Because they both want the same thing in the end…And the majority of the people watching buy it up hook line and sinker…I don’t buy it.
And I never approved of this waste of Bighorn Sheep..
Amazing in this brilliant scientific world we can not come up with a vaccine to protect the domestic sheep from this ghost disease and the Big Horns live happily ever after…
I smell a rat…as usual.
Democrats are Socialists, nothing more or less than a nice communist group. Republicans are Democrats which is the exact same thing.
Conservatism is dead in America because the dynamics of the world have changed. The two party system we know is one party showing division out in the open but behind closed doors they are best friends and the pretense is dropped..
Their all frauds..
Humans have fought over lands for centuries, The environmentalist holocaust is nothing more than a huge fraud being used to steal lands..It is simply the 20th century and 21st century range war of the 1800s via and information war, instead of the cartridge box…But to believe this will stay in that scope of warfare and stay out of that cartridge box is a foolish error…
This will someday turn violent if we do not wise up…and once that day occurs and the fight is over, it will be easy to confiscate the lands…we all lost due to division…I hope Brian Ertz lives to see the truth.. I hope he sees the European thieves move into the rocky mountains with their bulldozers to strip mine the natural resources their really protecting via this lie known as the environmentalism holocaust..Just another range war…
I hope he lives in the human zone and is not allowed to cross the yellow zone which will be the United nations buffer zone between the human zone and the wildlife zone…where the bankers will really be strip mining the 95% gold still in the land, and other resources which hide there..The American people held these resources for 200 years…and protected these lands….When we are finally out of the way…We will see what the new European Rancher/Bankers really wanted….
Then the Ertz children can ask their daddy why did you help this ?
I just wanted to take a second and make a clarification on comments. I do not “moderate” comments. However, as in the case of Jay-M’s comment which just got posted, for some reason it got caught up in the moderation software of Word Press. This happens perhaps because of a word that gets picked up that might trigger a SPAM alert or something.
I just got back from being away this morning and discovered Jay-M’s comment hung up waiting for me to approve.
If you find your comment doesn’t get posted immediately, that is probably why. On very rare occasions, a comment has come up among the missing. If that happens let me know.
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Jay-m, the death of the wolf in Colorado could have been from natural causes – time will tell. The majority of wolf kills are by “Wildlife Services” for livestock conflicts, next come illegal killings by a few ranchers and hunters.
There are other people who speak from the antiwolf side but they make good points and don’t go off on religious tangents and have not been “cut off”. Layton and Tony Mayer of saveelk (saveourelk) are examples.
Saying that antelope have no natural predators because the cheetah is extinct is rather preposterous. I read your reference to the american cheetah that has been extinct for 10,000-20,000 years. Greg might contest that.
Lee,
“Saying that antelope have no natural predators because the cheetah is extinct is rather preposterous”.
Since the antelopes natural predator has been extinct for 10,000 years goes to show you that in order for prey to survive it doesnt need a predator to balance the “eco-system”.
Lee,
You better run get a flu shot, hurry, big brother says it’s a pandemic..you might run..and have a nice pig in the poke..
Jay-M, could you give me leads to the other posts you made regarding: “I had posted on several other threads and they tried to educate me to their ideals. I wasnt triing to be a preacher they chose that “OUT” because I hurt ERTZ “FEELING”.”
What makes you think that the only predator of antelope (actually pronghorns) was this extinct “cheetah”. You’re telling me that for 10,000 years no adults were eaten by jaguar, cougar, bear, coyote, native American, or wolf? Not very likely!
Greg, I would also like to apologize for making a false statement. I recounted the posts which you had made in a thread regarding the Hailey, Idaho meeting of April 4. You are correct. However, I did not lie which is, according to my ancient dictionary – “to make a statement that one knows is false, especially with intent to deceive”.
Also, it would do no good to run for a flu shot since there are none currently available since this is a recently evolved viral species.
LMAO, evolved in a government petri dish..ignorance of the truth is no excuse you lied.
Lee, the thread that involves the cheetah started when the lovers of wolves were so excited that wolves were killing coyotes in yellowstone to balance the eco-system. Now the pronghorn has fewer natural predators there. The predators that you mention cant catch them, coyotes target newborn fawns. My point being that when the evil man kills coyotes to allow deer fawns a chance to survive, so that he has surplus to harvest, that is sick and twisted. Wolves that kill coyotes for the same reason, to eliminate competition, is majestic and and a symbol of the “Wild and Free”.
Greg, I cant wait until we get to relive “monkey pox” remember that from years gone by ? After we deal with the pig scare I am sure B. O. will be inclined to rehash that crap too.
Yep, I remember it, since I study history and religion one of the things I have collected is the history of the petri dish and the syringe..and the men who invented that nonsense..all from the same dogma and the largest and most powerful ism on earth, not only at this time but for centuries…and their continued attempts at keeping the people living in fright…You better get vaccinated or your going to die..ha ha. Oh but it is an evolving species, (rolls eyes).. Sooner or later those Priests will perfect population control, and the willfully ignorant will get the right injection and it will be ta ta for now fools. I should be compassionate here, bit I am not, There is an flu shot available and I hope the stupid willfully dumbed down go and get one..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r-njxcVt5U After the =if the link fails then it is Z.. There is your flu vaccine that is non evolved Lee.
Your absolutely correct the coyotes have been decimated here by the wolves, the wolves have been killing the new born elk, deer lopes, and to the people who actually get out and look it is a fact..
This is the most incredible state of unbalance in nature I have ever eye witnessed in all my life, in fact the last eight years especially it has been very obvious, The Lee’s of this world will only rely on big brother and will continue to disbelieve intellectual humans spending time in the field and sharing their observations.
.Based on well you have an axe to grind you hunt elk, or you like deer, or you hate wolves. No we do not hate wolves we hate what wolves do left unchecked. Never mind that politics and DOLLARS are involved and government jobs lost if you don’t go along with the agenda..
.THE WOLF PROGRAM IS A TOTAL FAILURE, and it is because of the Lee’s of this country and liars in government game agencies who only get credibility over all others, Including Val Geist, Russian Documented evidence over decades of research, and Canada itself, which has dealt with wolves for decades.
And 14 years of American government money sucking fools trump all of that expertise and knowledge according to the Lee’s of this world..That is why their Ralph Maughan hang out is so strictly moderated because their belief system over their is the proverbial bucket with holes and will not hold water..So they abuse their right of deletion and moderation..It is all about their religion over there, Environmentalism get that “ISM” on the end of that, another dogma created once again by a particular group of Priests, and these blind and ignorant Lee’s of this country bought it hook line and sinker….
LMAO, it evolved eh amigo..
http://www.cancertruth.net/swineflu.html/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBeKB7aKzOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq8wkdA1VYE
Hurry go geeeze up your vaccine Lee…
Jay-M said the “thread that involves the cheetah started when the lovers of wolves were so excited that wolves were killing coyotes in yellowstone to balance the eco-system.”
I didn’t get the feeling “they” were so excited about the coyote killings – just stating the facts.
On RMWN:
Jay-k Says: (first respondant)
April 17, 2009 at 1:41 PM
“When wolves killed numerous coyotes in Yellowstone there was not an outcry to defend them because they were saving antelope fawns? When man kills coyotes to save deer faws that is a bad thing? I am finding it difficult to understand the standard. ”
Yellowstone is a national park and is not subject to the same type of control over mammalian populations as areas outside these parks. Why should there be an outcry to defend coyotes in a somewhat self regulating park system? It had nothing to do with saving the pronghorn – that was an effect not a sought for outcome. Man kills coyotes to save deer faw(n)s so they will grow up and he can kill them. Is that a bad thing? Man is not altruistic in his saving of the fawn by killing the coyote. Wolves are not killing coyotes to save fawns, to think they are is anthropocentric. Good and bad have no place in the discussin of natural ecosystems.
Jay-k Says:
April 17, 2009 at 8:02 PM
“The article talks about how less coyotes means more of a certain prey base. What I find disturbing is the author promotes wolves killing coyotes to enhance a species but when man kills coyotes to enhance a different species it is not good. Besides antelope when grown dont have a natural predator anymore because the chetah is extinct. ”
As was stressed by other commenters the author, George Wuerthner, of the article, The War on Predators, was not PROMOTING the killing of coyotes. He was pointing out one of the effects of the wolf’s return in Yellowstone.
Greg,
Liar, 200,000 elk in Idaho in the 1990’s.
Lee you are good at pasting what others contribute, why dont you grow a dick of your own and show it? You must be one of those sheople that follow what others say and message their ego system of animal debauchery.
180,000 to 200,000 elk as so stated by fish and game numbers in the early 1990s, and conveniently tucked away from public reach..seen it, heard talk of it, and friends in the department then and now speak of it, off the record..
Go get your mind control flu shot…hurry..
Greg, liar, show my your source for “180,000 to 200,000 elk as so stated by fish and game numbers in the early 1990s”.
Jay-M or k,
I did speak but you ignore what I said and respond only with insults. I shall repeat : “Yellowstone is a national park and is not subject to the same type of control over mammalian populations as areas outside these parks. Why should there be an outcry to defend coyotes in a somewhat self regulating park system? It (the wolf program) had nothing to do with saving the pronghorn – that was an effect not a sought for outcome. Man kills coyotes to save deer faw(n)s so they will grow up and he can kill them. Is that a bad thing? Man is not altruistic in his saving of the fawn by killing the coyote. Wolves are not killing coyotes to save fawns, to think they are is anthropocentric. Good and bad have no place in the discussin of natural ecosystems. “
Hearsay evidence about those 200,000 elk from Greg: “seen it, heard talk of it, and friends in the department then and now speak of it, off the record.”
Convenient but not convincing.
Right ! government bodies never suppress anything ever do they…We are still waiting for you to convince us of anything..If I give you my source you and your little buddy Ralph Hitler Maughan will make a couple calls and presto those men are in the unemployment line..and careers as field warden’s are over..I have known them for years and trust them..
Run geeeze up your flu shot Lee…or evolution will get ya…
Rubbish.
Nice of you to share your last name finally, Lee Rubbish…
Anonymity does not warrant non credibility.
Many Wardens for the State of Idaho disagree with you Lee in private, they do not have the luxury of free speech, unless they decide the truth is worth being relieved of duty..
F.W.S controls I.F.G. with money and power.. Lies rule the day in your world.
I have 2 questions.
Greg Farber Says:
“180,000 to 200,000 elk as so stated by fish and game numbers in the early 1990s, and conveniently tucked away from public reach. ” (May 1, 2008)
“The figures are state counts from 1994 thru 2007. At the beginning of this program, our elk population was 235,000. It is now 125,000 or less. (January 10th, 2007) ”
1. Which figures are you going with for the early 1990s? There is a difference of 55,000 elk between your stated highest to lowest numbers.
” I also never said anything about not allowing wolves to be in Idaho, The mistake here is the state of Idaho not being in control from the get go, now we got 25,000 elk in Idaho or less, ” (08/05/08).
2. You are telling readers that Idaho wolves killed 100,000 elk between Jan 2007 and August 2008?
No I am not. I believe Idaho had more elk prior to wolves being “re-introduced” than estimated records indicated at that time, and since the information I read then is unavailable today, and was also estimated then as well..the entire subject is a waste of time..IFG has zero credibility and you and your ilk know it..unless their lies are in your favour and the wolves..
Prove those elk did not exist…You can’t any more than I can prove they did..
Mismanaged hunting units and wolves are responsible, especially wolves as they kill the future elk which is the herds foundation, no calves no elk, hunters only rarely take the calves in fall, wolves kill every calf they find..even rip them out of the mother’s belly..
At least you know how to swallow government bullshit and copy and paste, I commend you Comrade.
Greg I was not using government numbers. These are YOUR quotes!
From: “It is now 125,000. (January 10th, 2007) ” to “now we got 25,000 elk in Idaho or less, ” (08/05/08).
I did not suggest that took place in one year, and the 125,000 estimate is to government numbers..Which can not be proven either..
Meanwhile the hunting regulations once again show a decline in available hunting opportunity…Less tags and less days to hunt !
I wonder why the regulations and hunting opportunity are regressing backwards…in the last 8 years yet for the last five years I have seen less hunters in the field.
Seen any photos of those 125,000 Bulls, cows and calves standing at winter ranges ?
Where the heck are they ? Just some simple photo shots of that would de-bunk this myth..
Fortunately wolves eat one another…What a beautiful thing..
What did you suggest if not that the population of elk went from 125,000 to 25,000 in the time between YOUR two comments.
This is all you ever represent is games Lee, nothing but your games.. Where is your valued debate hidden away at..Or is all you ever offer are these attempts to discredit.. Of course Idaho and it’s 41% forested lands or 22 million acres of Forest could not handle more than 125,000 elk could it? Not counting how many millions of acres of B.L.M and farm lands we have over here in our state..our backyard, Mr. do gooder ! Well we don’t have the elk now do we Lee…Where are they oh wise one ? You know full well I am pointing to 14 years of wolf program wreckage, and your taking those two comments out of context..and twisting them about…. I live in it and see it first hand what seems to be your excuse, I do not see you in the Frank wolf devastated Church Lee..I do not see you in the Sawtooth wolf devastated Wilderness Lee…I will not give up my sources as they have families to support, something the Ertz’s Marvels, Maughans and your self do not care two shits about.. as long as you scum get your way you care for nothing else..
Greg, this is not a game. I am not taking words out of context, just repeating what YOU have posted in the past.
Greg said “Where is your valued debate hidden away at.” Is this a question? If so I have no idea what you are questioning.
“Or is all you ever offer are these attempts to discredit. ” Greg, that is what you do, and usually with insults.
Greg’s repsonse will duck the issue, again, as usual.
I ask again: “What did you suggest if not that the population of elk went from 125,000 to 25,000 in the time between YOUR two comments.”
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I tried a couple times to make comments on Ralph Maughans website, and was instantly deleted both times.
The second time I gave some information on my families pioneer history, including a book my great-aunt wrote about settling the Palouse, in Northern Idaho. Our high school studied this book, Today is Ours; and it is sold in the Moscow, Idaho historical center. It talks about the hardships early pioneers had prior to the railroad coming in, which my great grandfather N.A. Nelson was hired as the foreman to build from Spokane, Wa to Julietta, Idaho, then it continued to Lewiston.
The indians picked camus roots in our fields, and raced their horses. The areas was called, “The place of the fawns.”
This is just one set of great grandparents from Sweden that came to Moscow, Idaho. The book details the local people mainly farmers from Norway and Sweden, who were tough hard workers, and community builders. My great-grandfather bought a farm, and grew wheat using 30 Percheron Horses, for hill side farming. They were stewards of the land, and came out here when it was just being settled.
We plowed up hundreds of arrow heads on our farm.
Not only was I deleted from Ralph Maughan’s site, but I noticed he added a quote, from some source he claims is Charles Russell’s the Western Painter, who imortalized western life, with his famous ranch scenes, cowboys, indians, depicting all early western real life situations.
The quote is a slap in the face about the early Pioneers.
Log on to his site, and look at it.
At the end of my post,, I said now you can hit the delete button. It looked like he hit it, and added this insult afterwards.
Thanks Tom for your site, and your research. I enjoy Greg Farber’s comments on the blogs. Keep up the hard work, and research you guys.
Greg, The beetle was being managed by our loggers effectively. The minute they see rust damage on the needles, a bug patch, they log it out, before it spreads.
Loggers have planted more trees than any of these tree huggers ever had, or will. They don’t live with the land, and understand every inch like our fore-fathers did. We had to manage our land, timber resources, and wildlife, because we depended on it to survive. Harvesting and Replanting, Crop Rotation, Strip Farming to prevent erosion, and provide acres of bushels of nutritious grain to feed America and the World. I”m a forth generation wheat farmer’s daughter, on one side; and sixth generation descendant, from my mother’s mother’s side, who were pioneers that settled outside of Viola, Idaho. My great, great, great, grandparents are buried in the Viola Cemetary. They came in a covered wagon, from Spring, Colorado; originally from Kansas.
My great grandmother was three when they traveled in the covered wagon. She would later marry George Hare, who came out as a ten year old to farm, after his father was struck by lightening, and his mother died in child birth. His grandmother took over raising his siblings, and managing the farm; George wanted to go West. He had a small fruit farm. Hard workers, loved the land.
Timber is renewable, and managed by educated loggers, is replanted, and disease is prevented by culling out the bug infested trees. Forestry Majors work with the loggers, and have for years.
Sportsmen who pay for all the wildlife conservation, and have managed predators, with healthy numbers of moose, elk, and deer; including managing predators like cougar, and bear are the true wildlife success stories, and contributors. It took generations to build up our elk, moose, mule deer populations, with a healthy balance of cougars and bear.
They brought in this second to the largest keystone apex predator, from the Artic Circle, which was a miss-match for our delicate ecosystem, as Val Geist, Dr. Charles Kay, and Tom Bergerud warned.
It was a planned agenda to end: hunting, ranching, farming, logging, and stop all public recreation of our National Park Lands. Who can enjoy our National Forests with their children and dogs, or horses, with packs of wolves that aren’t endangered, but unmanaged and politically protected?
Study the Wildlands Project, International Soverienty, Agenda 21, Club of Rome, the New Green World Order. Tell your schools, teachers, and get on Idaho for Wildlife, a new website.
I want to thank Greg for your hard research, love your comments. Tom great informational site.
Advise: You might want to add links to: Range News, or Range as it is called. They have a great article about Mike Jimenz who was caught with huge Canadian Gray Wolves on a ranchers calving ground, on private property.
In addition they have two ranchers from Wyoming telling their story of Jon Marvel going after them. One rancher hired a lawyer, and they investiaged the Wyoming BLM, with the Freedom of Information Act, uncovered a direct pipeline of money being funneled into their employees salaries from Western Watershed.
Keep up the research, protect your property, our wildlife, our freedom. Our fore-fathers didn’t fight in the trenches for: Socialism, Communism, Third Reich, or Facisim.
These kids are being endoctrinated and they don’t even realize it. They won’t until it’s too late. Only the elitist rich, will be able to enjoy our states natural resources, National Parks, and Wilderness; and that includes the Buffer Zones, on Public Property, as well as Private Property.
They have infilterated: Federal and State Government Agencies, and their Non-Profit Agencies are paying for their allegiance.
They control the media and newspapers.
Keep calling your legislatures, educate your people, and our youth, who are the real losers, with this wolf experiment; which was doomed to fail, before it was even started.
Honest people see through the smoke screens. We know the damage first hand, us rural citizens with no agenda, who have lived here for generations.
Indian tribes in Alaska and Canada are trying to educate our Indians about this unessential, very prolific top keystone predator the Canadian Gray Wolf; they are telling them about the White Man’s Lies.
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