Men Report Attack By Wolves While Hunting In Montana. State Dismisses Claim
December 11, 2008
Judge for yourself. Two men while elk hunting in Montana say they were “attacked” by a pack of wolves. The state of Montana and Ed Bangs, so-called wolf expert for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, dismiss the claim as nothing more than ill-perceived fear.
“The idea of them charging people — I’ve never heard of that,” Bangs said on Tuesday. “But that doesn’t mean this guy doesn’t think he was charged. The whole threat may not be real, but I’m sure his fear was real.”
Here is part of how the hunters described the incident.
“They circled around us, and doggone if they didn’t cut us off. There was a dark one right in the trail about 40 feet in front of us,” Habel said. “John could have had a spine shot but decided not to take it because of the bear. I couldn’t shoot because John was in front of me and my barrel was too close. I couldn’t jeopardize the boy. Then things happened fast.”
“I could hear others, and then we heard this sound; they were sniffing us out, straining their lungs. It’s a crazy sound. And then that sound rippled up the hill. Then they started barking and all hell broke loose and they charged us,” Habel said.
Caroline Sime, the wolf coordinator for Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks, said she doesn’t know of any packs living in that area.
Bangs believes the wolves were just “running by” and the hunters perceived it as a threat of an attack and got scared. He also offered this assessment.
“Most of the time if you say ‘Hey wolf,’ it would haul ass. They don’t like people,” Bangs said. “But the classic wolf incident is you see a wolf, it stops and watches you because they’re big social learners. What I tell people is that although the threat may have been nonexistent, the fear is real, and I’m glad he reported this and talked to the state people.”
State and federal officials did not investigate the scene of the incident but they sure seem to know exactly what happened.
Tom Remington
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So, in other words, there was NO attack? The men were watching the pack
as it was headed for other places.
Most of the time if you say ‘Hey wolf’ ……………………maybe calling out “Sit, Ubu,
sit” will work with the same results…………………….
And you no-educated hunters can’t even tell when you are being stocked for an
attack.
And if you read the article at the link I provided you also get the usual condescending comments made by state officials about the ignorance of “hunters”. In this case I believe it was a game warden who made remarks to lead readers to believe these two guys don’t know anything about wolves and the outdoors.
It may very well be true, but when paid officials put on this demeanor and begin dumping on those whose fees pay his salary, it really sucks!
[...] Men Report Attack By Wolves While Hunting In Montana. State … [...]
[...] Men Report Attack By Wolves While Hunting In Montana. State … [...]
They got it right….if they had run, there would have been no trace of them left…Wolves are like dogs and man and almost any other animal….if you show fear by running, they know you are a prey. He stood his ground, and they veered off…the same as I have had happen with bad horses, cattle, dogs and men..They came in to kill, and they knew it would cost them, so they went on by.
We had a horse down out here last winter, colic took him, the wolves came in and fed on the horse for a couple days, some folks were watching the wolves myself included and two IFG officers stopped to look and the superior said we did not know what were talking about those are coyotes….the second officer when asked what he saw said, “No comment.” They were wolves. Later I thought while they were standing there I shoulda pulled the rifle out and whacked a couple of them…I had witnesses and he said they were coyotes….
Wolves will lunge at you, or charge you and nip you a bit on the way by, they want you to run…just as the two men described their experience in Canada the day before Kenton was killed by wolves, how the kept charging them….
In Warm Springs Creek near K-town Idaho, wolves surrounded a bow hunter and one wolf began lunging towards the hunter…the hunter killed the wolf….law inforcement went to the scene and it was justified self defense. But the kid was told keep his mouth shut about it.
Bangs is a politician, they are proffessional liars and so is he. It is the agencies involved getting money from tax-payers that can not justify their own existence unless your stupid and believe their non-credible bullshit about their own science and hunters being ignorant fools beneath government non-producing useless worthless shits lying for their living.
I’m really getting sickand tired of all these people telling us hunters how we are supposed to act when we’re attckedor stalked by bears, cougars and wolves. Most of them would shit their pants if they ever were charged by any of these animals. Until you’ve been there you don’t know what you’ll do or how you’ll react. It scares the hell out of you I know I’ve been there.
it’s a fish story, or i guess i should say a wolf story. people dont like wolves and the easiest way to get rid of them is to scare everyone about them, they are no more comfortable than the coyotes on this place are with people…i dont beleive a word of it…
of course i doubt this will be printed…
Barbaraj, actually, I love wolves, the same as all life, especially wildlife….and don’t dislike the idea of them being in Yellowstone, where they were first intended…and were sold to the public. But when they have spread out into all the areas where we have brought back and supported the elk and deer populations, they are out of place in that ecosystem, the same as they would be in your backyard…..but unless you have first hand experience with dangerous animals, you will live in your fairyland Disney world of fantasy and ignorance….
It’s just a matter of time before there is a attack on a human but it will make no difference to the F&G they again will say keep your mouth shut just as they will do.
Kenton Carnegie killed in 2005 by wolves, was no fish story, it was the death of a 22 year old young man, there are plenty of police reports of justified self defense between wolves and man where the wolf lost the attempt and the evidence on the ground showed the human was defending against the wolf. Two men were attacked the day before Kenton was killed in the same place and barely made it back to camp. (Look to wolves in Russia, and the thousands of unarmed Russian people living in rural farm communities killed by wolves in the last 200 years)
But by all means sit in your safe city suburb and don’t never go hike in the wilderness or in my backyard for that matter and learn just how wrong you are, just like we should not believe in robberies, muggings, rapes, murders in your cities, other humans would never do those things, I don’t believe it either, you defenseless track home in the city suburbanite jungle people should stop whining about a bloody nose.
Barbaraj, just another dumbass that needs a long walk in Idaho’s Frank Church Wilderness…..FOR A REALITY CHECK…..and then please please get me outta here…..I just love willful ignorance…..
i dont live in the suburbs. i live on 22 acres on the confluence of two rivers. we have a lot of wildlife including deer, and coyotes. We have had coyotes kill one of our cats but the coyotes are the ones who belong, our cats are the intruders, and stay in the house now. wolves are just now entering oregon and could easily end up on my property. i have horses and will do what is necessary to keep them safe from the wolves. Jes you say ” But when they have spread out into all the areas where we have brought back and supported the elk and deer populations, they are out of place in that ecosystem,…” i find this laughable that you perceive wolves as out of place in that ecosystem. you do not understand what ecosystem means. the wolves were part of that developing ecosystem and are an intricate part of the success of that ecosystem. it is us with our domestic animals, that are out of place in the ecosystem.
here is the research about wolf attacks..
“The first comprehensive and detailed report of attacks by wild wolves on humans in Europe, Asia and North America has now been published (Linnell et al 2002). The report’s eighteen researchers reviewed the most reliable records they could find, written in 13 languages and dating from the 16th century to the present.
They identified three kinds of wolf attack:
Rabid – where wolves have gone mad because the rabies virus has infected their brains.
Predatory – unprovoked attacks where wolves appear to regard humans as prey.
Defensive – where wolves are provoked by people to attack, such as when trapped or cornered.
They found that:
Most fatal attacks were by rabid wolves.
There were few fatal predatory attacks and none in North America.
There were no fatalities when wolves attacked defensively.”
read the rest here:
http://www.wolftrust.org.uk/faqpeople.html
It’s funny that you all think Ed Bangs is a “politician.” Many wolf advocacy groups thinks he’s always supporting the other side!
My dogs actually do that to people they don’t know — they will curiously get close, then back away, then get close, it’s normal canine behavior.
If the wolves did “attack” the men, why didn’t they go to the hospital? Where are their cuts and bruises to account for the “attack?”
Geeze, any wild animal CAN AND WILL attack humans if they feel threatened. Mountain Lions can be very dangerous — much more dangerous than wolves!
They have been known to jump on bicyclists and attack joggers and there have been many instances in the Boulder, CO area. There was also story on TV of a woman riding her bike with a friend in California and a mountain lion jumped on her, and started biting her face. She nearly lost 1/2 her face.
So should we “hate” Mountain Lions too then?
There’s a reason they are called wild animals
Mike,
If you are THAT afraid of getting attacked by a wild animal, why hunt? It’s YOUR choice to put yourself in possible harm’s way and then complain that there are predators around!
Unfair!
I think the predators hunters should really be afraid of are other hunters. i wouldn’t be caught dead in the forest during hunting season any more (oops maybe i would be caught dead). i used to hunt thirty years ago but the area where i hunted is just packed..there have been more fatalities in Oregon by hunting accidents than there have been in the whole Northern hemisphere by wolves.
Yes, agreed! Alaska, interestingly, the state that so prides itself on hunting has the WORST hunting record in the nation (of hunters shooting other hunters.)
I do believe in vegetarianism — for many reasons, health and otherwise. I haven’t gotten there yet but I’m working on it all the time.
Barabaraj,
I read several pages at your link provided and dicided a shoveled enough horse shit this morning outside, in my corral, the link is total bunkum nonsense.
I am glad you live in Oregon, I live in Idaho in the Sawtooth National Forest, and the Boise National Forest, I hope you enjoy when the wolves move in, and your horses bust down your corral and you spend two days finding them…
I hope you love the vet bills you will pay, I will hope you do not lose your favorite horse or dog. Some day, you will notice all your wild animal friends that share your spot where you live have moved on….and you might wonder why.
More than 17 humans died from wolves attacking them in Russia, you might want to view all the evidence http://www.wolvesinrussia.com
And New Mexican rural horse owners would disagree with your preceptions as well, http://www.wolfcrossing.org/
I’ve lived here for fifty years and my family for 160 years, we are not gonna move ever, I’ve had cougers around and bears around my entire life, not once did they blow my horses out of my corral thru three rail fence, wolves have done this to me three times now.
All the deer and elk left here, in fact there is less of every thing here now, even grouse are scarce. Enjoy your wolves when they come.
We don’t leave our horses alone ever any more, some one is always watching them. Enjoy that, your turn is coming.
In forty years of packing mountain back country I had a bear in camp once, a couger never, and now in the last seven years wolves come into my camp every summer, if Im there they leave, I don’t think if I leave my horse and mule alone the wolves would leave.
The hunters were prey tested, the wolves were not serious about doing them harm, not yet, it is a familiarization process, and only a matter of time before they kill a man.
Wolves do not belong in the lower 48 period, CANADA has hundreds of miles of open range and mountain country, Idaho does not, no state does.
Keep believen your horse shit all you want, the truth will come knocking at your corral one fine day. Then your lies will fold up before your eyes. ENJOY IT.
DON’T BOTHER BEA, WE CAN’T SHOOT WORTH A DAMN UP HERE and we
are too stupid to care.
Stay away from here. It is not safe. The economy is terrible and we hate flat-
landers and ignorance. Move to Mexico.
Real cute suburbanites move to rural area’s and want to change how people live and think…problem is those folks who were raised in those little rural settings, and even the more distant ones like mine KNOW BETTER.
Ladies, you are missing the point…Of course, you MUST miss the point or you would both be aware of what the wolf is doing to the elk and deer population….Rather than miss the point, you ignore the point by needs because neither of you are hunters and/or are dependent on the deer and elk population..
When wolves finish off all the deer and elk in an area, they are going to be very hungry….the same as barbaraj’s mountain lions..Except that, wolves are pack animals, and if you had read the history of recorded attacks in Russia, you would realize that.they are much more effective at bringing down people than mountain lions are…Mountain lions are usually timed in regard to man, but are getting more aggressive every day as men encroach on “their” territory..On the other hand, wolves have been known to “bring down” men throughout history…you just don’t read about it anymore, because it is “politically incorrect”..Look at the history of Russia, where there have been less people, and more wolves..read the articles included in the threads above…Don’t be hodwinked by the “modern” media and it’s gullible appreciation of the wolf…they are a threat to all our deer and elk and large wildlife and man as well! And if you do not fear them, neither do you appreciate them! For they are one animal who in the “right” situation for them, can leave the remains of a man as nothing but blood on the ground. You have nothing to fear simply because you do not venture into their woods..neither of you have reason to. A hunter has to if he wants to hunt, at least in the west, where the wolves are….And it’s not just about fear, it’s about having anything left to hunt! And it’s about the ranchers who will no longer be able to support a life’s work that has fed generations of your families on beef and sheep that kept your fathers and grandfathers alive and well…Leave the wolf to go unchecked and you are destroying a way of life and the men who go with it…And maybe that is exactly what you both want….
Jes, you go from a hunting story to a rancher story. Which is it?
I am not a transplant, but a sixth generation Oregonian that has seen the population grow to my land. i have had hunters on here (despite the no hunting signs) once shoot across my horse when i was on him. i guess he didn’t know the difference between a horse and a deer, they are the same color and they both have four legs.
i hunted for many years. my husband used to guide hunters (maybe where i got the idea that hunters can be really stupid) many who came from suburbia to the wild west to shoot things! dont confuse me with the other commenter, i am not a vegetarian.
i have another fish story for you. a friend was spear fishing at Cabo San Lucas, Mexico when a shark attacked her and bit off two of her fingers. she still fishes, she still knows that sharks bite and she still has two less fingers.
the idea that the wolves are eating all of the elk, moose, and deer is physically impossible, and purely anecdotal. there is not a high enough number of wolf to make a dent in the population. the elk, and deer are on the run now as they should be so you are not seeing them as often, nor are the elk as likely to be passing around brucellosis, chronic wasting disease, scabies, or hoof rot. all diseases which affect the elk when they are allowed to wallow on the valley floor together.
Bea,
I’m not afraid to go into the woods and I realize what could happen. It’s my choice to be there yes, but it’s their choice as to if and when a predators decides to attack or retreat, if they attack it’s once again my choice to defend myself or be a statistic, I choose defense and I don’t think a bunch of bunny huggers should give a guy or gal a bunch of shit for protecting themselves. As far as the guys that say they had the problems with the wolves, we were not there so how can we say what happened to them. Yea 99 out of 100 times it’s a bluff but are you willing to be the 1 that isn’t. It always amazes me hoe people who very rarely get out into the wild can automatically know what animals are thinking and how they are reacting. It’s not always like the book says. Years ago three boys were killed by one smallish black bear while they were fishing all of them attacked from behind on different parts of the creek, drug to a den and fed upon. Is this typical, not a chance but it happened. Wild animals are unpredictable so if someone says an animal acted a certain way and we’re not there to see it how can we say for 100% that it didn’t happen. To even think otherwise is bullshit.
“it is us with our domestic animals that are out of place in the ecosystem”
No, my dear, human beings have been in and of the “ecosystem” for 150,000+ years. People have been living where you live for 11,000 years or more. We are the Keystone Predators, the Masters of Fire, and the Caretakers of Nature. That is our gift, or curse, depending on how you look at it, but there is no turning back, no way to void the Contract.
Wolves have no rights, only people have rights. Wolves have no “intricate role” in nature, people do. Ecosystems are healthy and vibrant in the total absence of wolves. They are not so in the total absence of people.
These are tough concepts to grasp in our current anti-human culture, but they are valid nonetheless.
Greg,
I might be to stupid to care but I can hit a wolf at 500 yards, and I know a bunch of other stupid guys up here that can do the same. We don’t gotta be smart to get real good with a gun, just aim and pull that thangy thats underneath that makes it go bang. I always wanted to be a vegan but could never quite figure out how to gut a turnip or a lettuce and no matter how many time a shoot em I swear I can’t tell if their dead or not. I tried turnip jerky one time too. I’ll stick to elk and deer lessen them wolves get em all, then I’ll try wolf.
Mike,
You can see that far in all that brush, I thought that country was dog fur thick pine up yonder. I am a long range kind of feller to, had to be in this southern exposure down this way, Just get ya a sack of parvo poop mate and spread it up and down them trails your way, I’ll do the same my way and we’ll fix them dogs wagons once and for all. Course, I think the wolves are moving out, they kilt all our game and are heading over to Oregon to kill theirs now. I HOPE. The ones that stay will soon starve to death, and good riddance.
That was my remark about ’stupid to care’, Mike L. It was for Bea’s benefit as I
couldn’t stand the thought of her being any where near me.
Turnips. Toooooo funny
Bea,
is a turnip mental midget carot headed dumb bitch.
Greg, ar,
It’s thick but we still get some ridge to ridge gunnin, ya hit them dogs low and the pack’ll take care of the evidence, easy as shootin turnips in the garden. I learned log range when I lived in Colorado. When I was a kid the ranchers would supply our reloading componants for thining out the prarie dogs, had the same deal with a few cherry orchards and thinning birds, mostly starlings I actually got a butt chewing cause I wouldn’t shoot the Robins.
A friend had a wolve turn and attack him after his missed the first shot. He was
better with the 2nd. I can’t weigh the hide but he said it was 100 + lbs., typical
in color. He has a larger hide of what I call salt and pepper with pronounced
ridge-back hairs. Black when closed and white when the fur is open.
I read the report in the Helena paper and the comments that followed.
The incident occurred on November1 after sunset. The full moon was on November 13 so there was on the day and time in question no moonlight to shine off those teeth. Being able to see a grey or black wolf af 40 feet under these circumstances is questionable. Why did he wait until he was back home in South Carolina to report the incident? Why didn’ thre reporter question the 15 year old boy who is resident ot Montana?
“Caroline Sime, the wolf coordinator for Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks, said she doesn’t know of any wolf packs living in that area.”
I am not saying they couldn’t have moved in.
” Had a similar occurrence some years back while hunting north east of Boulder. The description of what happened to these folks fits exactly except it was coyotes in my case. My father did not believe me and the next day he had an encounter with them too” MRICH wrote on Dec 11, 2008 8:00 PM:
Bea and Barbara j , don’t you love how they know all about your being from the suburbs, big cities etc. I am glad to hear that there are some welcoming people in Eastern Oregon and Colorado.
jes, Tom Remington had expressed concern about the affect of wolf populations in NW Montana. I sent some info showing the harvests over the past 6 years exceeded that of the previous 6. Apparently the wolves haven’t seriously impacted yet.
That’s a little rough on Bea, while I don’t agree with her ideas and ignorance on some issues I don’t think we need to go to extremes on the name callin. Take the high road my friend. I wouldn’t mind hookin up some day and see some of your country down there, sounds alot like where I grew up in Western Colorado. Sure miss huntin the big mulies. My old huntin pard from there tells me there coming back but if they get wolves it will be short lived. Mostly whitetails up here, a few mulies but nothing like colorado or from what I hear down by the salmon.
the name calling kinda reminds me of when i was in jr high. it has been a long while though, my memory on that is getting thin. im surprised that greg is willing to put his name to it.
wonder what this blog would be like if it were not moderated..
good night boys!
A couple things Barbara: (Your comment above, got caught up in the comment folder waiting moderation)
First, sharks weren’t reintroduced into the oceans.
Second, your comments about wolf populations and it being “physically impossible” for wolves to eat up all the ungulates, shows your lack of knowledge on this subject. We already have one case of an elk herd in danger of not being able to sustain itself due to mortality by wolves in Northern Idaho.
The idea that wolves are “necessary” for a healthy ecosystem is Disneyesque bunk.
To clear up any confusion, the comment I left above was intended for barbaraj not Barbara.
When the junior high mental midgets keep attacking those of us with wolves in our yards constantly insinuating we are liars and biased against their false dogma preconcieved scientific notions they can not support, they deserve the more direct approach, and where Bea is concerned polite showing of evidence to refute the silly claims she attempts to lambast us with gets us nowhere. The world has plenty of wolves, and their going to knock on your corral door soon enough, frankly they disgust me, they are not above me, and yes they deserve to live, but do not deserve to trash my property and decimate the animals of the forest in which I supported my entire life, AND Gorilla’s are in far more need of your concerns than these silly cute little fluffy canines run amok in my village crapping on everything and looking to me to feed them since they have shown they can not manage themselves nor stop themselves from sportkilling when not hungry. I’ve been on the ground among them, seen the evidence and I post my name and fear nothing, meanwhile those that can not prove the ground they stand on hide behind half names and non-believable inuendo, based on emotions not facts. WANT RESPECT then stand on your name first and let the chips fall where they may. You can move the suburbanite to the country but you can not instill the country into the suburbanite their indoctrination is complete, the wolf is a sirius god.
If someone is intent on hating wolves, unfortuntely there is no way to change their mind, even with facts.
I really truly believe that it is the height of arrogance and ignorance to “hate” any animal for doing what it does naturally! I mean, if you have a disagreement with God, then take it out on Him!
And nowhere have I ever said someone should not defend themselves if they are being attacked. But any animal CAN and WILL attack if it feels threatened. It’s not un-natural!!
But , those hunters are not being honest — those who claimed they were “attacked.” Again, where are the cuts and bruises and why didn’t they go to the hospital?! Are there any pictures of them after the “attack?”
It sounds like the wolves were simply “sizing them up” to determine if it’s worth it (prey) and decided it was not and left. That would be completely natural to do.
The Montana fish and game agents who are supposed to be intelligent educated public servants failed to give the hunters in this story any respect or credibility and simply shrugged this event off as a paranoid exaggeration, this showed arrogant disrespect towards these men and what they observed. Then we get half name bloggers comeing onto the story backing the arrogance of the agents and saying they do not believe what these hunters saw take place, basically calling them liars and fabricators of make believe paranoid delussions. I have seen wolves behave like this, I have witnesses who were with me this last August and September who also saw this, it is called PREY TESTING, the wolves are getting to know the knew prey which is unfamiliar to them, because it walks on two legs, this must really baffle them, so they experiement on the new prey. Take a human and have the human crawl on all fours, then the wolf recoginizes normal prey and attacks, simple. Or make the mistake of panicking during such an event as the hunters described above and you will have an attack and a dead human. Simple. I have faced down wolves, more than once now. Some folks take me up on my challenge, to go out and camp where their are packs, these wolf lovers could not wait to get the hell outta there, and will never go back. I think this is hilliarious. So who started the name calling here, the government agents did, Barbaraj did, and those who read this blog know full well, about Beatricals insults and name calling she or it or he has been guilty of. Barbaraj convicted the hunters based on zero investigation prior to assumption, with “I JUST DON’T BELEIVE IT.” Just call them a liar next time, it’s the more direct approach rather than the cowardly affable way of doing things. The disney theology about wolves is bunkum.
Sure, just stand there and let wolfie bite you before defending yourself from lunging prey testing, and even slight nips at your clothing only, the innocent little wolfie is just playing around in this stage of the prey testing attack to see the reactions of the new prey, the wolves were prey testing, it is in fact a form of attack, for information purposes, they may well bite or nip next time, if in this prey testing episode the hunter had ran, then this escalates into a full on attack and likely death of the hunter, as in the case of Kenton, he tried to defend and then ran, his death was the result, a fact you can not refute or ignore. i have been prey tested, they were attempting to make me run, I did not, and they left. I would love to see Bea in this situation. Wolves have been justifiably killed in Idaho and near Ketchum Idaho specifically who did not bruise, or bite, or draw human blood, WHY….because the wolf was not allowed to do so, its intentions were very clear and it was killed by a man skilled in his own self defense, and local law enforcement did not press charges against the human because the evidence on the ground around the dead wolf showed lunging and charging attempts against the human. Bea is completely off base and incorrect, but we are used to that aren’t we.
Greg, stop rambling. What exactly are you calling me “off base and incorrect” about? You seem to thrive on childish name calling!
I don’t see what the issue is — wild animals are wild and can and will attack if they feel threatened — as they should for survival. And man can defend himself.
What is the issue???
So the wildlife officials should have been more “understanding?” I believe they did take an incident report. That’s ALL they can do and that’s all they SHOULD do.
It’s like a while ago my mother called Wildlife Services in her area because she “saw a coyote.” Wow.
Thankfully, the officials said “coyotes are natural and native in your area and there is nothing we need to do unless it is attacking you or your property.”
And the Beat goes on……. dum, dum, da-dum, dum
And these people want to be in charge, lets force our idealogy on the world, wait a minute, we gotta get our idealogy straight first before we begin.
Greg spoke: “The Montana fish and game agents who are supposed to be intelligent educated public servants failed to give the hunters in this story any respect or credibility and simply shrugged this event off as a paranoid exaggeration, this showed arrogant disrespect towards these men and what they observed.”
“The idea of them charging people — I’ve never heard of that,” Bangs said on Tuesday. “But that doesn’t mean this guy doesn’t think he was charged. The whole threat may not be real, but I’m sure his fear was real.”
The out of stater did not report the incident until he was back in S Carolina. I would think that an attack scene should be investigated as soon as possible after the event .
This is a link to the Story in the Helena paper. Of the 18 comments 3 agree with the Gregs of the world, 3 rather neutral, and 12 comments are questioning the story. Some one beat me to checking the date of the full moon. Details, details.
http://www.helenair.com/articles/2008/12/11/top/55lo_081211_wolves.txt
Greg, do you know whether the “authorities” questioned, John Wieferichthe, the 15 year old who was hunting with Dave Habel?
Bottom line is none of us were there so we don’t really know how the animals were acting. Greg lives around more wolvs than all of us so he sees just what they can and might do probably every day. I have wolve around my property also and although haven’t been confronted bt them I have seen how they affect the game herdsin my area. It finally started snowing and my son is still looking to fill his elk tag with a bow. You would be hard pressed to find fresh elk tracks in the snow that a wolf is not already following
For God’s sake people. Read what the story said.
Bea – Nobody reported they were “attacked” by wolves. Perhaps I was in err when I used that term in my report. Chastise me for embellishing the story.
The title of the article from which I referred called it a “close encounter” and in the first paragraph a “false charge”.
The tale the man told was around a month after the fact. We have readers here who state their experiences with wolves and concur that the actions so described by this man could have happened. Others claim that’s not wolf behavior.
IF IF IF, the man and or the boy had been “attacked”, meaning, bitten, mauled, clawed, etc., I think it reasonable to assume they would have gone for help if possible and reported the incident immediately. Then PERHAPS, fish and wildlife would have investigated. (One would think reasonably so in my opinion, that if there were “no known wolves in that area”, had the incident been reported immediately, MAYBE officials would have investigated to see if there actually are now wolves living in that region.)
I’ll give the man the benefit of the doubt that what he describes is how he remembers the incident one month later. He MAY have gotten home and began telling his tale and others encouraged him to report it.
He believes he was “charged” by wolves. For whatever the reasons, he nor the boy were bitten, nipped at, mauled, clawed or any such thing and he NEVER SAID HE WAS. READ THE STORY!
The only part of this story that bothers me is that it can’t be just a story. The reporter put a little spin on it so as to make it sound like because Caroline Sime said she wasn’t aware of any wolves being in that area, the man must be a liar. And then the game warden in his condescending way puts the man down because he had a wolf encounter.
Makes you wonder too if he would have been treated the same if he was a local man.
It just amazes the heck out of me how a simple little story from a newspaper in Montana can conjure up some of the most bizarre rhetoric and crap from people who weren’t there, don’t know any more details of the story than I gave you and then can make astounding conclusions.
Isn’t it fun?
Have any of you ever been charged by a bear and then told about the encounter. It’s just as Tom is saying, the people that have been charged or bluffed don’t doubt the truth. Some people you tell think your telling a story because very seldom does it happen, but it does happen. The only bear I’ve shot dropped less than 10 or 15 feet from my barrel at full charge, come to find out he had been previously wounded the weekend before, there was no doubt in my mind that he was serious. This fall elk hunting and once before I had a bear about 15 yds do the bluff, they hop up and down and side to side all the while huffing and growling and poping their teeth, but both times this has happened there was a difference in the way they acted, they held up at that 10 – 15 yard range and didn’t come near as hard or fast, I raised my gun on both instances just in case and each time It was kind of scary but no were near as scary as an all out charge. I’m sure if they would of came one more step I would pulled the trigger and had to eat bear, which is why I don’t hunt them, don’t care to eat one. I can’t understand how anyone when listening to a story about a hunter shooting a Grizzly or wolf in self-defense is a lier just because they don’t usually act that way. Usually doesn’t always applie in the outdoors.
sure, i questioned it when i read it because it had a false ring to it. i think its pretty funny that greg you decide that the guys were telling the truth and i am a chump for questioning it when you have no more information on it than i do. so you know wolves???? great! i know people!
by the way Tom, how many ways do you know of for a herd to die off?
150 Mount St. Helens elk died over winter
Posted by The Associated Press May 09, 2008 08:57AM
Categories: Hunting stories, Wildlife
VANCOUVER, Wash. — It was a hard winter for the elk herd in the Mount St. Helens Wildlife Area.
The state Fish and Wildlife Department reports about 150 elk died of malnutrition and causes related to the snow and cold the extended into April. The winter kill reported Thursday was the largest recorded at the area since 1999 when 79 elk died.
Concerned about the hard winter, wildlife managers distributed 131 tons of hay to elk that congregated in the Toutle River Valley near the volcano.
Regional wildlife program manager Sandra Jonker says it was a stopgap measure, and managers hope to reduce elk deaths by bringing the size of the herd in line with the available natural forage.
***
It is really interesting that historically in places like Pennsylvania elk herds were decimated by man. the reason? they were pests. they were destructive to crops and the farmers wanted them gone. In Pennsylvania, that was the beginning of the game commission. Does this sound somewhat familiar? the elk were pests and killed off until the herd collapsed and there were none left. luckily there were still elk in Yellowstone and the newly established game commission were able to purchase enough to start a new herd. the point is that in the 1870’s the pesky species were the elk. todays wolves were yesterdays elk.
***
and Tom, really it is still speculation over the cause of the losses in the Lolo herd.
i know you guys are the only experts out here about wildlife and all, so maybe i will just let you men do all of the decision making about what species should be allowed to continue, and which ones should be gotten rid of.
When it comes to the F&W or any anti group of people the mentality is that it is your fault that you were attack or charged or stalked or if your not bleeding your a liar.
If your not hurt in a case like this your better off not to report it .
At least that way you don’t have to listen to all the bull grap.
I live with wolves in my mountains here, raised a wolf from a pup so you could say I know wolves, chased bears with dogs for years, and cougers, you could say I know predators. I understand the political wolf very well, more often than not the political wolf and their lackeys have cause to dispute truth and lie all the time, seen it more than once. The human animal is soilish-selfish-soulish and digs in its heals and fights for what it believes, even when it knows it is supporting a falsehood….pride is another human weakness. And contempt prior to investigation is another human fault.
There is going to be encounters like this, we all knew it…it is prey testing, territorial defense, and learning about the new prey on two legs up close. Valerus Giest nails it with his seven stages of human and wolf contact over time, having read this expose many times and watching wolves over the years it fits them to a T.
That said, prey testing is a practice attack when they run by, circle, and challenge by lunge or charge then leave, those hunters probably never researched wolves, and did not understand the event fully, it sounds like four events I have experienced, three in Idaho, one in Wyoming. The Wyoming event was erie, seven wolves stood around me at ten yards stairing at me intently, no lunge no charge, lasted say 25 seconds then they wandered on their way, it was scary, magnificant, and a rush all in one, afterwards I liked it.
People better start supporting management of the wolf, they do not belong on the ESA list, and they do not belong in charge of their own supply of elk either. The failure that is occuring will starve them, and send them into private properties and towns seeking food, then your wolf will prove you wrong in the open. I do to have more information than you Barbaraj, I have on the ground experience, I have researched the human animals tactics and political faults, the last 500 years specifically in great detail. Authorities have a track record of deception and are trained proffessional liars, the hunters in this tale likely told the truth to the best of their ability and understanding of the event itself, and after all, they were there.
barbaraj, you speak well.
I have thought for a long time that some wolves could be useful for managing the Toutle River elk herd in the Mount St. Helens Wildlife Area. Artificial feeding is not a long term solution. The state of Washington anticipates that wolves will move into the Cascades on their own as they did along the Canadian border this summer. Residents, representatives, and F&G of that state are much more supportive and tolerant of wolves than are ID, MT, & WY. Actually, surveys show more residents of Idaho support, not oppose, wolves.
The reason for artificial feeding in Wyoming south of YNP is to protect ranchers from herds of elk eating on what used to be their winter range which is now utilized by non-native bovines primarily on public lands. Interesting, intelligent, civilized discussion here:
http://www.newwest.net/index.php/main/article/5493/
Surveys of who wants what in the wolf category is meaningless when it comes down to the wire. If you pricks in the city think you can run the way we live in the country, you’ve got another think coming…If you need a little armed rebellion to kick your asses back to the city, you might not be long in having it come your way. And you can have all the wolves you want, in your suburban back yard ….There comes a time when all your meaningless crap sounds like queer drivel…pricks that don’t work and nosybodies who stick their noses into the business and lives of those that depend on their living in the country. Lee, get a life. Do something productive for a change, Saving the wolf is like saving syphilis…
Jes, you speak so well……..
I support 2000 breeding pairs let loose in Oregon, ASAP. Let the fun begin, and Colorado should get them as well, we’ll see who supports what when the blood clears.
jes, would you elaborate: “Surveys of who wants what in the wolf category is meaningless when it comes down to the wire.”
This sounds meaningless to me.
“If you pricks in the city think you can run the way we live in the country, ” There have been only three people commenting here that are prowolf, so you must be referring to Bea, Barbaraj, and me. You certainly assume a lot about us.
I for one, have never lived in a city. Moscow, idaho was as close as I ever got.
Barbaraj speaks above about where she lives. Sounds like a country soul to me. Boulder is in my estimation a large town, tucked into the eastern front of the Colorado Rockies. Both of these ladies speak with more reason than you or Greg.
Greg, I wish it were so easy to get wolves, in any number, into Oregon. The decision has been made by ODFG to allow them to migrate in, probably from Idaho; and has a management plan in place.
Greg, how long do you think it will take for ém to figure it out? I’m for those wolves, too.
People are so far removed from reality on this subject it’s getting sad. Perhaps
these folks are just too young with no experience so they rely on what is read;
is not truth and assume it is and declare it so. Maybe, in time, the light will
come on but not tonight, I guess.
ar,
We prefer a wolf that respects us not the other way around. The light will come on sometime for them, perhaps when its their horse/mule/dog bloodied in its own yard where it had been minding its own space. Perhaps while hiking when they get bitten or worse…some country over here is not fit for the likes of them, only the seasoned avid hunter woodsmen better enter, I’ve seen the proof. Thats good enough for me.
I live near Ketchum/SunValley, this place is filled with this mindset displayed by Lee, Bea, and Barbaraj, and when the cougers are in their garage/barn/hayloft/ or on their roof top and their scared to walk to the driveway for their SUV….who do you think they call for help….THE MAN WITH THE DOGS, THE HUNTER, the experienced avid outdoorsmen, recommended by local IFG…..myself and company included to remove that vile evil predator that might eat me in my yard.
Who teaches these mental midgets how to ride and care for their horse they bought when they moved here….and bought land cleared and developed with the sweat and blood of others forced to leave by them via outlandish property tax rises by millionaire real-estate pro wolf agents….WE DO.
Their paper tigers ar.
“ar” comments “Greg, how long do you think it will take for ém to figure it out? I’m for those wolves, too. ”
I have seen no comment above that indicates that you are prowolf other than prokilling them.
Greg states
1. “We prefer a wolf that respects us not the other way around”
I thought respect was mutual.
2. “mindset displayed by Lee, Bea, and Barbaraj, and when the cougers are in their garage/barn/hayloft/ or on their roof top and their scared to walk to the driveway for their SUV….who do you think they call for help….THE MAN ”
If you feel you have a problem in Ketchum don’t include us as part of that situation. What you describe has never happened to me. I lived in Montana, near Kalispell, and had no indoor plumbing. There were bears and cougar around (sorry to say it was before wolves migrated on their own 4 feet to this area); suprisingly, with all the wild beasts about, the kids survived this period of their lives. The older used to pretend to be a predator and scare the younger while on the way to the outhouse..
3. “Their paper tigers ar.”
Dog has spoken!
Problems in other peoples back yards is trivial to Lee, his global warming hoax and false preconcieved psuedo science of his mythological concepts about wolves is all crumbling apart…instead of seeking truth he seeks to harass and chide those wiser than himself. It’s ok though, we are used to saving the know it all’s in this society and then they return to staring down their nose at us again once their world is all fluffy again. Gosh and he lived in an out house too.
with candles. The entire bases of these peoples belief system is nothing but conjecture lies and inuendo of zero facts or confirmed evidence. psuedo science suppositories up their ass again.
“Problems in other peoples back yards is trivial to Lee, his global warming hoax and false preconcieved psuedo science of his mythological concepts about wolves is all crumbling apart.”
I have never spoken about global warming! Greg continues to push myths!
Greg, the more you speak the more you show your ignorance and intolerance, Keep it up!
Lee, anybody who brags about “the time we lived with no indoor plumbing”, is no man who makes his living from the country….you’re just another suburbanite who wants to play “outdoors man”….Play away, buddy, but don’t shoot your bull to me thinking that proves you as something I can’t see through…you’re just another wanna be….who likes to dictate to people what you want them to do, when it doesn’t effect you at all! When your backyard is covered in wolf tracks, let me know, and I’ll listen to your whimpering for awhile…..
Surveys in the “who wants wolves” is meaningless because if you think general consensus= truth or wisdom or what will happen when the wolf starts taking pieces out of suburban kids and their pets and you’ll see the consensus changing..
Guess you understood the “prick” part….and yes, it does apply to you…. If you think your “country estate” makes you country then you never found out what country was…you never got your cute little lily-white hands dirty enough to prove it..
Like I say, you’re just another wannabe…and resent people who genuinely are! And I’ll listen to the truth from Greg, who is neither ignorant nor intolerant, except of overbearing fools who need to learn how to listen and learn from people who actually live the life they write about….unlike yourself.
I knew I would get his goat, it’s easy to make Lee crumble, how’s your money Lee ? Those bailouts are ruining the dollar forever. Obama is going to give us all health care (Oh boy) I wonder where their going to steal the money from since they don’t got it in the first place….Just like research shows the FWS ESA, and Interior Department never had the funds for this wolf fiasco, so they stole em. Just like everything else the wolf program has a false bottom. CRASH.
Read in the paper todaythat their killing more wolves because of conflicts wih farmers and ranchers. Gee , who would of everthought that was gonna happen. Wolfies are crying cause they said Bush will try to delist before he leaves and they think there should still be more of them. Wolvies are complaining about there being more wolves killed this year than last. Could it be that more are being killed because there are more of them to kill. More wolves = more conflicts with Ranchers because of their prey base dwindling maybe. Greg whats the temp. down there in your country? We had a high of 7 on the job and looking to be 5 below tonight. Sure hate this global warming don’t you?
jes, I didn’t brag, just stated a fact. Greg’s statement about cougars reminded me of the time a friend of mine saw one while on the way to the outhouse. The house came with the 40 acre property purchased for $8000 in the Flathead Valley. Well worth the investment. I am not ashamed because it didn’t have an inhouse bathroom – there is a remedy for that. The 105 acres in Maine had a house in worse shape than the one in Montana; but the price was less, $3800. Finished the bathroom before moving in. The first night the rats kept knocking stuff off the counters; raticate took care of them. The old way of plastering in Maine was to use rough hemlock boards, nail an end, split it with an ax and spred it out , nail it down and then repeat the process until the board is about twice as wide as it was and has a surface that holds plaster. The plaster is mixed with horsehair to reinforce it. It is miserable work to rip it out because it is still one very splintery board with many nails. Lots of crowbar work, plaster, and dust. Then load the broken split lath and shovel the plaster into a pickup and haul it out; then empty the pickup. Vacuum the dust. Install fiberglass insulation, itchy stuff. Took about 4 years to finish the remodel by working evenings and weekends. “you never got your cute little lily-white hands dirty enough to prove it..” So you say but you don’t know what you are talking about and you make up lies.
Greg states: “instead of seeking truth he seeks to harass and chide those wiser than himself.”
Well that certainly isn’t you!
My global warming is 10″ deep now and still falling we are up from 17 degrees to 22 at the moment. I sure hope Uncle Albert saves us pretty soon.
Lee, you sound like you almost coulda been a real american instead of a communist supporter and silly party follower of the republocrats-demopukes combination single nation party pretending division…what on earth happened young man ?
jes Which part of my life that I have written about do you think I have not lived ? “learn from people who actually live the life they write about….unlike yourself”
Greg you “live in Idaho in the Sawtooth National Forest, and the Boise National Forest”?
Both at the same time? Or do you have two places?
Lee,
You seldom share your life here, but you make fun of ours and call us take take take takers giving nothing back.. you provide government science, which has been in dispute since day one of this wolf program, PLUS, those are tainted reports by agencies attempting to justifiy their existence and slurping at the trough of free money stolen by force by armed thugs from unarmed people, US taxpayers. You give every one the impression your better than them due to your choices. government lies everytime it speaks, get used to it. They voted to do this wolf program, kinda funny, in a Republic, or a Democracy that is not the proper method is it ? Thats the number one reason to not support it period. BUT, the list is huge. Second is mismanagement of both wolves and FUNDS. Third the decimation of elk is real. And we will see the chewed up human yet in all this, probably a child walking to school. Bottom line wolves should not be running about in rural places where humans habitate. Someone said wolves would stay in the Wilderness and they wanted to be left alone. Well then we know thats bunkum nonsense now don’t we? Our perspectives are very different and once governments start lying it gets worse. On the chiding I’m guilty as charged and lovin it….on the truthseeking your a failure.
Two places.
Greg states: “Someone said wolves would stay in the Wilderness and they wanted to be left alone”
Who is this someone? I never heard this from any of my sources.
“Wilderness” with a capital “W” no less – where is that?
I never expected wolves to stay only in the Frank Church Wilderness of Idaho where the wolves were released, nor was that part of the reintroduction plan. It was chosen as the nucleus of the largest public lands (which, by the way, belong to all USA citizens, not just those in Idaho) available in the lower 48 for the project.
“they wanted to be left alone”
the mythical “someone said ” again? It is nothing I ever heard.
I’ll be damned, Greg anwered a question! He has two places! So which one are you at now?
Typical hysteria inducing rhetoric from wolf haters who claim to like wolves:
jes: “what will happen when the wolf starts taking pieces out of suburban kids and their pets”
Greg: “And we will see the chewed up human yet in all this, probably a child walking to school. ”
Keep hoping so you can say “I told you so”.
Dogs are a bigger threat to humans, especially kids, than are wolves! Kill them all. Deer are deadly. Humans too.
Cars kill a lot of kids, lets get rid of them.
Cars don’t rush into school yards and harass children, cars don’t stalk kids at school bus stops, cars don’t slink along behind kids walking to and from the school bus stop. Wolves do, see Catron County New Mexico where they built inclosed shelters at bus stops so kids can be safe from stalking wolves, Cascade Idaho is or has also done this. We can already say we told you so, Kenton Carnegie 22 years old, killed by Canadian Wolves 2005. US and Canadian citizens have been harassed and bitten by wolves. Emily Travaglini 14, of Sault Ste. Marie bitten by a wolf at Katherines Cove beach in Lake Superior Provincial Park, Leah Morgan 3 attacked by same wolf same day, her grandparents rescued her from the wolf as it tried to drag her away by the arm. two other humans were bitten as well, 13 year old Jake, 12 year old Casey, We can already say we told you so. We never said wolves do not attack humans your side did. This event was reported in the Hamilton Spectator. A British Columbia canoer was attacked and being bitten defended himself from the wolf. We never said wolves would not attack humans, your side did. A hunter was attacked in Warm Springs Creek, IDAHO, he killed the wolf. There are others, but of course besides fighting your unfair bias, we must tolerate media outlets that cover-up rather than report facts of wolf encounters in the lower 48, and as this article shows they musta made it up. government kills a lot of kids lets get rid of it. government steals everything including diverted tax-dollars with out permission to buy and support wolves and forvce them on people that do not want them. lets get rid of government, it has a 100% failure rate, see history, see your government. Idaho has 43 failing county governments right now, lets ban it to. SINCE the Frank Church is yours to, I suggest you try the Sulpher Creek Drainage loop, its awsome, take your camera, and doggy biscuits, your million plus dollars doggies are waiting to see ya, their lonely.
Don’t shoot the wolfie, but it is OK to let them die of Starvation. Makes ya wonder who really hates wolves. Maybe Marxist Obama is going to make dog food companies provide rural folks WHO ACTUALLY LIVE WITH WOLVES EVERY DAY with bags of doggie foods to set out on their porch for this government investment gone wrong….we can call it the wolfie bailout plan.
But then hell, we should remember that communists approved youth- inasia programs in the past by caged up starvation, see Stalin, and Hitler did it to, but then Nazi’s and Commy’s are the same thing. They hate private property, and especially the right to vote and speak out against their dogma. Ain’t that right COMRADE LEE. Or is that Ralph ? LeBeau perhaps ?
Comrade Lee says typical inducing rhetoric from wolf lovers who hate anyone exposing their lies and dogma nonsense who claim to like wolves and it is ok to let them die of starvation rather than gun shot. THERE, ain’t that more fun, edited by ME Comrade Lee.
i notice that there are a lot of generalizations about those of us who are “wolfies” as you call us…
we are a pretty varied bunch tho, some are city dwellers, some suburbanites, some rural, and a few ranchers.
our philosophies are really varied too. some are for saving all animals where ever possible (they are usually part of the national humane society) which i am not..i am for maintaining wildlife habitat and healthy eco systems.
which means in my neighborhood i trap and turn in feral cats to be put down by the local animal control. some communities will not do that because of their local humane society..i am against letting populations of feral cats unmitigated because they wreak havoc on the wildlife population. i consider them an invasive species, not native..
i think probably the way i feel about feral cats is similar to the way you feel about wolves (and yes i understand that to you wolves are worse because they disrupt your elk and deer numbers, sometimes predate on your livestock, and make you concerned about safety issues. but it is comparable nonetheless because i am concerned about the maintenance of planetary species (all of them, not just wolves). i think if you are living in Wy,Mo, Co, and Idaho, it may be difficult to realize that the numbers of native species really is being threatened..so far the deer, elk, or moose are doing fine surviving as a species..so i am not concerned about their numbers at this point..
that said, i am also for realistic numbers when it comes to predator reintroduction. i know there is controversy about what that is, but when that number is reached i am all for controlling the numbers over that amount.
this is not an official position..the only official position i will leave to the biologists who study the animal ecosystems…and as i said, the next person you may find has a dont kill a single wolf attitude..but that is not mine, and that actually is a very minute number..
Barbaraj, nice post. You are absolutely correct about feral cats; however, the expense of catching, and transporting is a lot more than a bullet on site which has the same end result.
Funny that we all grew listening to folk stories such as “Little Red Ridding Hood” and “Three Little Pigs” Some parts of the stories are metaphoric, however you can not dumb down that fact, that these stories were passed down from generation to generation for no other reason than to educate and warn the next generation. These stories date well over 500 years and date back to Europe. Lessons 1.) Children should not go walking in the woods alone…2.) The wolf is very smart (like a human) (The little red story is meant to warn young girls about talking to strangers in the woods alone, I find it ironic, that instead of just saying “strangers” they use “BiG Bad Wolf.” Hum I wander why!!! To a young child what would be the difference? Both can be diabolical, and 500 yrs ago and today, in the wrong situation deadly. 3.) The other storey is also warning young people not to leave the protection of thier parents to soon, and when they do leave, to make sure that the new home is structurally sound, top to bottom… Guess what knows how to dig holes? Just imagine how people lived 500 years ago, poor, dirt floors, no guns, no transportation. Think about the expressions, like “wolf at the door”, did you ever consider where this comes from?
It is clear to me that our ancestors where well aware that wolves preyed on humans, the wolf has not changed much (evolution wise) in the last 500 years: however we have advance with travel, shelter, guns, ect. But when someone goes into the woods without the protection of a truck and a gun, they are just as much at risk as back then.
Generations have used the wolf as an example for a reason, the above stories can be traced back to real people, and real events.
The wolf populations needs to be kept in check, all problem wolves should be eliminated not moved. I hear parvo is now killing some\wolves, the wolves probably have this disease, due to killing and eating dogs. Maybe the wolves will eliminate themselves…. If the parvo controls thier numbers, guns can not be blamed. The wolf must learn a simple rule, “he can NOT throw mud, without getting his paws dirty’.
[...] (especially in the current wolf publicity campaign in the US) that wolves do not attack humans. Maybe us “yanks” have just been lucky so far. I happened upon some interesting reading via Save Elk, a site supported by a group of citizens in [...]