McCain Picks Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin. Already Being Called Wolf Killer
August 29, 2008
Not that I think for a minute Alaska Governor Sarah Palin can’t handle herself, having been picked by Senator McCain as a vice-presidential running mate, the animal lovers are already lining up and calling her a wolf killer. Oh, heck! Why not a polar bear killer too!
Gov. Palin supports the use of aerial killing of overgrown populations of wolves in specific areas of Alaska that threaten other species, specifically the caribou and moose, needed for subsistence hunting by the natives. She is also suing the Department of Interior on behalf of the state of Alaska to overturn the DOI’s decision to list the polar bear as a threatened species.
Earlier today, republican candidate for President, Sen. John McCain emailed his supporters with his announcement.
My Friends,
I am honored to announce that I have chosen Governor Sarah Palin of Alaska as my choice for the Republican nominee for Vice President. As a father with three daughters, I can’t express how proud I am to choose the first female Republican Vice-Presidential nominee.
Sarah Palin is a trailblazer and a reformer. As the first female governor of Alaska, she challenged a corrupt system and has been a tireless advocate for reform - passing a landmark bill on ethics reform. She has taken on the old politics in Alaska and reformed the state’s energy industry. She rejects wasteful pork barrel spending. She’s fearless - exactly the type of leader I want at my side and the type of leadership we will bring to Washington.
My friends, together Sarah Palin and I make the strongest presidential ticket and I know that she joins me in asking for your support as we head into our Convention week in Minnesota. We’re shaking things up in this campaign - and Governor Palin and I are ready to bring real reform to Washington.
Personally, I think it was a good pick for him. Let the games begin!
Tom Remington
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Sarah Palin IS a wolf killer. Real hunters that feed for sustenance hunt on foot, not by plane or heli. Aerial hunting for wolves is a trophy sport, and a cruel one at that. It’s not real hunting in the eyes of millions of hunters in America. Your logic is flawed.
ps. I own guns, hunt elk and whitetail for food, flyfish, and support tapping all of our natural resources in this great country.
pss. I’m female.
P.S. Female Jamohn,
Wolf populations need to be thinned to support other species of game in our forests and hunting wolves on foot will not accomplish the task, state government hunters are not sport hunting they are thinning wolves to lesson the predation damage to moose, caribou, and other hooved animals. Hunting them from aircraft is the only logical process and it works. Hunting from plane or helicopter is illegal except for government hunters and trappers, who you trying to kid ? If we don’t start manageing these wolves we will have no other game to hunt and put on our tables, and the wolves will starve themselves because they will eat them selves out of food, and then move into towns to seek out dogs, cats, cows, sheep, horses, and kids walking home from school, and even adult humans eventually. See wolves in Russia by Will Graves. The American mindset on wolves is 13 years old compared to the Russian and Canadian knowledge and experiance of decades, thus it is your logic which is flawed.
P>S. I hunt and fish, and horse pack, and watch wolves watchimg me do it and its really really fun. I can’t leave my horses picketed out any more and leave them alone to hunt, I wonder how long before my presence in camp won’t stop the wolves from coming in, according to Canadian and Russian Science I don’t have long to wait before it’s a fight just to be out in the woods. Million’s of American hunters and fishermen better get a clue and soon.
Ooh, too scared or manly to hunt the big bad wolf by foot. Wow, I’m amazed that you support aerial hunting. That’s not how the natives did it for hundreds of years! Mother nature did a fine job on it’s own for hundreds of thousands of years. It was humans who messed up the balance. Don’t kid YOURSELF!! Keep the misguiding towards your status-quo ill-informed hunters. You probably think baiting is necessary, too.
McCain just put a nail in his coffin.
Greg, I couldn’t have said it any better, and I am glad you did! Jamohn, as an “older” man who has watched the way we used to have wolves, then decided to exterminate them, I can tell you from experience, that you would never have had any deer or elk to hunt, if we had not gone on an all out effort to get rid of the wolf…And it was never considered sport hunting, using planes to shoot wolves..but it was effective in keeping them in control, that allowed sportsmen to bring back the deer and elk in the numbers that we have today!
It’s not aerial hunting, airhead, it’s aerial killing! The same as poison and cyanide trapping, and any other method that HAD to be used to bring down the wolf population, so the deer and elk could survive! Maybe you’re a little short in the history end, and I am a little long in the tooth, to listen to impertinence and ignorance.
Almost forget what this post was all about….But anybody that doesn’t appreciate this gal, must approve of corruption in politics, cause she certainly did the job, back when she took the job… check the history of her anti-corruption fight when she took office!
The pro Obama liberals, and the Bush haters, (am I being redundant?) are only doing their job, in saying anything they can to slander the opposition….
Me, I LOVE this gal…God bless her and hers!
McCain just put that nail in Obama’s coffin pal, Palen is the perfect choice, she is a woman, pro-creationism, pro gun and anti-sodomite marriage.
She will secure public opinion for McCain and thus the “Election.” This move will unite ” conservative ” Catholic’s and ” Conservative ” Protestant’s behind McCain and it will make the pope’s Crusade in the Middle East appear to be Protestant led.
McCain is a “Southern Baptist” and Sarah Palen is an ” Assembly of God”, Now Dobson, Hagee and Robertson can fully support John McCain. As I stated in the past it is a done deal and John McCain has been selected to win the “election.”
Of course the election process in America is rigged by the communists and I refuse to participate other than to fully expose this scam all I can, Neoconism versus marxism is not much of an American choice…..gotta love Palen though standing against sodomite/lap licker marriage.
That said it is sure funny a Colorado hunter with no wolves decimating his state wants to mouth off before living among them his/her self as we do in Idaho, in fact they do not bother me in the least and you cowards better hope I never get to hunt the wolves because I promise you on foot or horse back I have studied these scum wolves for a decade now and could kill them in their beds with ease with knife gun or axe I do not care in the least, I will string their dead carcass’s up for their wolf freinds to see and know that man is the dominant wolf in these mountains, I might even froth at the mouth while doing it.
Come sleep in Idaho’s Frank Church buddy, lets see how well you sleep at night. Try not to let my snoring bother ya.
Who is advising McCain– some drunk?
McCain is NOT going to get any more votes because of choosing Palin — he is not going to get “Hillary votes.” and Palin should stop sucking up to women because it is fake. Hillary’s supporters do not like her.
People who wanted to vote for Hillary are generally not hunters, not conservative, and not members of the NRA.
This makes no sense on McCain’s part and I am guessing he will actually lose votes.
McCain already had the NRA on his side if not for the reason that Republicans would not vote for Obama. He didn’t need more conservatives on his side. McCain needed to come closer to the MIDDLE!
Sarah Palin is not middle, especially with her anti-wolf campaign. It’s a terribly brutal practice, not at all sportsmanlike and unnecessary to boot. I understand she spends money like crazy too and Dems and Repubs don’t like her anymore — so ship her off to D.C. I guess. Ugh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr183lk-wQk
Protect our wolves. No animal deserves this.
Aerial extermination of wolves is barbaric slaughter, pure and simple. No outdoorsman would support that garbage or Palin. McCain has now lost my vote and NOTHING will get it back now.
What a homophobic, barbaric freak you are. Yet you just said its fun watching wolves? SCREW YOU.
Bea, actually have you gone over to hillaryclinton.com forums. It seems to be interesting that the majority of internet hillary supporters are willing to vote for McCain because they were expecting Obama to pick hillary as his VP…
For those who claim to be animal rights activists should be concerned what the wolves are doing to the caribou and moose. Nobody said it was hunting. We can interfere with mother nature when polar bears are living on the melting side of the ice but we can’t interfere when angry wolves are killing other wildlife… ??
Sounds illogical to me. Palin and her family are great people, don’t let your hatred get in the way of seeing the obvious.
Wolves do not waste, and they are extremely endangered. Get real. For God’s sake, sometimes I wish we had completely killed them off earlier, then we wouldn’t have to do it now. What a sickening, barbaric practice. Outdoorsmen don’t mindlessly slaughter out of greed. What sickness.
Stevie boy. your a dunce, I said fun being sarcastic, its fun sleeping with one eye ball open watching my pack string all night. I do enjoy the howling though, and howled back, but like the wolf is habituating to me like wise I am learning the wolf’s ways, habits, tricks, and plan to use them against the wolf, the wolf is running out of hooved game in the Frank Church Wilderness, and must be a little bored and hungry drooling over me and my stock day in and day out, but it is the wolf who is frightened to fu%#@ with me, their smart. Other than that the fishing is fantastic and Im heading back in for some more. SCREW YOU, and your wolves.
Keep all the wolves, screw everyone else? If you lived here,
you’d be eaten, by now.
The sole reason to kill wolves in this manner is to protect
people and property. It’s no “hunt”. Peoples’ lives are at
stake at this point.
Funny isn’t it, if those government hunters thinning the Alaskan wolves did it on foot they would be eradicated or up a tree, depending on how fast they can run.
You know what I don’t see much any more around these parts, in the Frank Church Wilderness yuppie tree hugger wolf hugger liberal back packers from town’s or city’s any more, keep the wolf keep the wolf, but they don’t go sleep in the woods no more.
You know what, howling wolves are better company anyhow, at least the wolf don’t lie to ya, no BS from the wolf, they know what they want and their figuring out how to have it, every last elk and deer, big horn sheep, goat, moose, even dig up bears hibernating in winter and kill em, they kill wolverines, badgers, coyotes, foxes, watched two wolves dig up a fox last winter and eat him alive, they kill grouse, turkeys.
And they would love to get their teeth sunk into my horses and mules, and even me eventually once they have studied on me enough to do it, or try, ha ha ha……I’ll keep on going in there though because no marxists dog is gonna run me off my public lands.
Keep the wolf keep the wolf, screw all the other animals in the forest keep the wolf. Lets drop these wolf people off in the Wilderness about fifty miles in and lets here what they say then. Get me out get me out……ha ha ha.
I know, one wolf hugger packed in with me, it was nice, she stayed in camp with the dog and watched my horses while I was away in the forest sneaking up on wolves near their den to see them up close.
She wanted to get the hell outta there after the second day. ha ha. No more solo back packing trips for her, poor dear…..hey man, at 350,000 bucks a Marxist dog I think folks should go see the wolfie in his habitat of decimation, it’s a beautiful thing…
Greg, could you please speak English? I have no idea what your posting says or means.
Steve, killing animals — any animal — in this fashion is barbaric. There is no gray area about it. It is based on flawed science. Even if the “science” were based in facts, which it is not, one does not treat God’s creatures in this barbaric and disrespectful manner.
It does not speak well of mankind. It especially speaks poorly of this Sarah Palin who put out a $$$ multi-million PR campaign to promote it.
Politically speaking, I don’t understand how the Republicans could be so stupid. Do they really think liberal to moderate voters will vote for McCain now that he has a “token” woman. Sarah Palin and Hillary Clinton couldn’t be more opposite!
Does she really think she’ll get Hillary’s 18 million — yes — 18 million votes? Dream on.
Steve, sorry, I forgot to say that wolves eat out of hunger, not anger, just like you and I.
Mr. Farber you must have read “Little Red Riding Hood” a few too many times.
Wolves waste out of glutton want too because their eyes are bigger than their stomach’s, kill and take two mouthfalls and run along to the next live animal to destroy.
God created this Earth for man, God wanted man to manage the animals, God knew as mans populations grew and man moved into wilder area’s some animals would need to be removed to other safer area’s for them to live because certain predators could not live near man.
The wolf was fine in the Canadian Wilderness, 60,000 strong and room to roam. We don’t need or want the wolf in our back yards.
Which version of english would you like me to use their are eight different dialectics ? Are stuck in Websters World ?
If you understood the Hegelian English dialectic which most criminal politicians use, some go with Asopian English Dialectic as well, but if you understood these with some theology and symbology you would never vote again.
Hillary Clinton is a Druidic Phoenix worshipping witch. All politicians voted for the death of humans, is that ok… The Democratic Congress gave Bush almost every thing he wanted the last four years, is that ok too ?
Joe Biden voted for death of other humans via war, is that ok ? So did McCain, is that ok ? Whats the difference ? So did Hillary.
Steve, you were never going to vote for McCain. Period.
I’m never going to vote for either SMOM controlled puppet, why would I, these people have done nothing to represent America since I was born.
Wolves WERE in North America before the cattle industry with the help of the Biological Survey (now called Wildlife “Services”) decided they were in conflict with letting their cattle run all over the land. So they killed all the native buffalo too.
You have no right to say they have no place in “your” backyard. We are living in THEIR backyard, it is their God given right to be here, like it or not.
Go find someone else your own size to pick on. Leave the wolves alone.
Bea, do you live with wolves ? I do. I also raised a wolf from six weeks old to fourteen years.
Can you show with Bible scripture where God gave animals rights over man ?
I do not pick on wolves I mind my own business going fishing to Alpine Lakes and wolves come and watch me.
We have howling contests.
Do you got what it takes to hike in the forest while predators threaten you ?
When do your Democrat politicians stand up for the true definition of Democracy ?
DEMOCRACY; 1) Government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and excercised by their elected agents. 2) A state in which the supreme power is vested in the people and excercised directly by them rather than the elected representatives. 3) The common people of a community as distinguished from any priviledged class.
That does not say switch to marxism does it ?
REPUBLICANISM; The common wealth or state; also a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is excercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them; also, any body of persons. etc., viewed as a commonwealth.
Again, that does not say switch to marxism does it ?
DUALISM; The state of being dual or consisting of two parts; Division into two; also; any system or theory based on a dual principle or involving a duality of priciples.
This is part of what we have, can you show me in the Constitution where the founders designed this strategy ? No you can not, Why, because they knew divided we fall as a nation.
Who does Dualism benefit ?
These guys;
COMMUNISM; MARXISTS; A theory of system of social organization based on the holding of property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state; a theory or system by which the state controls the means of production and distribution of industrial products.
PLUTOCRACY; The rule or power of wealth or of the wealthy; a government or state in which the wealthy class rules; also a class or group ruling. or excercising power or influence, by virtue of its wealth.
Socialist Marxism; A theory or system of social organization which aims at securing better distribution and more effective production of wealth by the vesting of ownership and control of the means of production, capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole; also, a system of socialistic character, especially for the benefit of the working slave class under the wealthy elite class owning every thing, established and directed by the existing state or government.
Under the first two definitions which are true American ideals, with the Democratic process being used to help the Republic function correctly under Constitutional American LAW we the people vote on wolves.
Did we vote on wolves ?
Under the UnAmerican three definitions we got wolves shoved down our throats by elites ruling this nation via the unratified 17th Amendment and the United Nations Agenda 21, specifically section 28 of that Treatise. This program is an illegal action using stolen tax dollars and lies to force this on Americans who did not want it.
See the court cases which specifically deny Congress any rights to legally be involved in United Nations Endangered Species Activities or any other wild life activities in the states of this Nation and have never been over turned;
See U.S.C. 588. NO JURISDICTION.
McCready v. Virginia, 94 U.S. 391, 394,-95 (1887)
U.S. v. Shauver, 214 F, 154, 160 (E.D.Ark 1914)
U.S. v. McCullagh, 221 F, 288, 293, D. Kan. 1915)
God also said to obey the laws of the land if they were reasonable did he not ?
As far as little red Riding Hood is concerned I was to busy with an education to be bothered with fairy tales, even at that young age I was reading History and Law.
The wolf Program is illegal and has used stolen funds. Plus it was a waste due to the fact that Idaho had wolves prior to the ” Reintroduction” SCAM.
Dosen’t it even bother you people that a foreign governmental panel controls the ESA, FWS, our Forest Service and several other federal agencies via our congress giving them authority over these forest lands ?
I missed that Constitutional vote as well.
I do not like wolves. They scare me. I would never live in a house built of straw or sticks either because wolves are sneaky and have extremely good lungs. Does anyone know if wolves can swim under water? The Bible even warns about wolves dressing up like a sheep to fool people. These are dangerous cunning animals if they can do that. My greatest concern is that killing wolves from airplanes might result in the death of many innocent, not to mention cute, sheep and that would be very sad indeed.
It’s all about controling the population of Wolves. It doesn’t matter if your for or against the wolves.
The majority of americans eat meat and so do wolves.
The Wolves are destroying our Elk and deer and whatever else they can. We as responsable citizens have to take care of this problem. Unless you live in one of these states such as Idaho or Wyoming you can’t understand the problem the Wolves are causing. It is easy to set in New York or somewhere there is no Wolves and say stop the killing of these beautiful creatures. Elk and Deer are beautiful too.
Aerial hunting of wolves in Alaska is an example of profound cruelty and cowardice. Having studied the situation thoroughly I know perfectly well that the wolf population is not in need of “thinning”, as many of you call these acts of massacre. Wolves are not harmful animals and just consume the amount of game they NEED, therefore they are not destroying anything. There are definitely sufficient amount of game for wolves in every part of Alaska. It may be true that the populations of elk and moose are not big enough for wildlife predators and hunters but do people really need elk and moose flesh that badly? It’s all about that some (of course not all) hunters are so fond of killing animals that they think they shold have a right to kill as many elks and mooses they want to.
Of course when predators start to act aggressively and attack people without provocation there should be a possibility to hunt these individuals. But these systematic pogroms against wolves is really unsustainable. For example killing pups in their den is something that makes me really, really angry. Give some concrete facts which would justify these acts.
I would strongly recommend all pro wolf lovers go back packing in the Frank Church Wilderness, at least 10 miles deep and stay for two weeks if you got the nerve. Enjoy a few high alpine lakes, lower you will find beautiful meadows, rivers and streams, you might see a deer or two still, maybe even an elk, I know forsure you will see wolves, isn’t that what you paid for ? You didn’t just want me to enjoy the wolves did you ? get out there and see them folks, their really beautiful, they howl all night right next to camp, they even walk in and see you up close, just had one come three days back at 11:30 a.m. right into camp, looked at me and walked off. other wolves were hanging around too, it was really cool. In a ten mile radious I counted three seperate packs singing their song, I even joined in on the howling contest. Wolves even bark at you like a dog does, it’s funny. Once they get done with their info gathering on me the human, they will brave up for their first attack on me, or someone like me who still goes in the Church Wilderness, hooved game is nearly wiped out in there, I know, Ive been going into this spot for 36 years, used to be hundreds of elk, deer, not now though, their all most gone. Better get in there folks and enjoy your National Forest, the U.N. has not put up the no-tresspassing signs yet, you can still go……I just can’t understand where all the yuppie REI backpackers went, used to see quite a few walking past me in there, I was always polite to, and helpful even, oh well, I prefer the place all to my self. Must be some safer forests to back pack into some place for the wolf huggers, I can’t imagine why they would pay for the wolves then not visit them. I guess it was a gift for my kindness in days past. Well I’m gonna enjoy the Wilderness before the elite bankers forclose on it and shut us all out of it for keeps. I know, you folks don’t beleive thats gonna go down, well keep watching.
Hillary supporters will vote McCain… But don’t take my word for it. Go see for yourself and witness the movement.
http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=26179
Greg is right. Where have all the wolf loving back packers gone.
I’m sure the wolves miss them. The elk and deer are almost gone now from Idaho and a tasty wolf loving hiker would probably taste pretty good about now.
Steve: That Hillary Clinton forum full of “PUMAs” is part of a very small movement (they had a big meetup in real life and no more than 30 people showed up) run by a woman who claims to be a Democrat named Darragh Murphy who actually donated $500 to John McCain in the 2000 election — look that up. Don’t be fooled — there are secret Republicans in the mix there to convince the more stupid Democrats there to cross over. John McCain threw away his moral high ground over Obama (experience over change) for a few temporary poll points and nobody likes a cowardly hunter and I can guarantee that the “purple” states are going to question shooting wolves from the air and will consider it cruel.
Get a clue people, the government kills wolves from helicopters using government biologists to do the shooting, if they did not do it then another species of hooved game gets wiped out by the wolves in question. They are not killing all the wolves, just enough to back off the killing of the hooved herd to attain balance. The correct wording could be ” Cowardly Biologist ” controlling their wolf packs.
Who knows maybe McCain wins and keels over and Sarah is the first Women, wife, mother, President of the United States. I would take her over Hillary Dillary Liar Clinton. Maybe a mother will think twice about more kids going to war and dying for BLOOD SOAKED OIL while the BLOOD SOAKED MEDIA MONOPOLY LIES TO US SOME MORE.
And while you guys do some ” research ” look to the Democratic Congress members who out number the Republican members making millions on stock investments profiting from the war on terror. Namely one John Kerry for starters. And there are others profiting from this war, your Messiah claims he will end, NOT.
Course the Messiah Obama needs to win first, And he might win, just like Gore did, and even Kerry did, maybe you Dems will get it after the third fix goes down that its all RIGGED and voting is a scam.
Let the Crusade Continue, we wants our golden chair at Solomons rebuilt temple mount, wise up. its obvious who runs this BS..
Diana that is only one source and I have many more sources. Reason nobody showed up is people had to work and you can’t expect a last minute rally within hours of finding out a new VP candidate.
I dont’ think people care as much as you do about wolves. Most people feel threatened by wolves and only a small minority really believe wolves are cute and cuddly and are far superior to humans.
Oh and by the way, you lie like a rug. The owner and administrator of the site at the Hillary forums is far from a Republican and is making a concerted effort to get donations together to support McCain…
Secondly, Palin can bring more change than Obama since the only person running for Pres or Veep who is not a sleezeball DC politician is Palin herself. She is the only one that stands out as different to me. The only difference I see in Obama is he is not 100% white.
So go back to your far corner of la la land and grab your pom poms and cheer for Obiden…. and quit lying to people on blogs…
Sarah Palin is an out of touch, radical right wing gun toting radical who has no respect for predatory animals.
Anyone who could support the brutal aerial killing OF ANY ANIMAL — let alone PROMOTE it– as Palin has done– does not deserve to hold ANY office.
McCain’s pick of Palin shows how far off his judgment has become. Women who vote for a woman based on gender only are not doing themselves or anyone any favors. Hillary and Palin could not be more opposite. The only thing they have in common is gener. It’s like voting for Obama because he’s black.
It would be a privilege to live near packs of beautiful and intelligent wolves anyday than surrounded by ignorant people who think they need to “manage wildlife.”
Killing part of the wolf population won’t solve the distorted balance of nature. The distortion is not caused by wolves as they manage their pack sizes. In a single territory the amount of inviduals won’t rise over certain limits. Therefore administrations should find other means to take care of this problem. Of course part of the people would like to destroy every single predator from the wild so they could hunt more game for fun.
BEA, Heikki Hamalain,
Your both encredibly stupid. No managment of animals, especially predators means no animals period. We settled this land, after hi-jacking it away from American Native Indigenous Peoples and population growth means animal management to sustain herd development and predator control to sustain hooved herds balance meaning correct cow to calf ratio and bull ratio for elk and the same for deer.
A modern society can not have 100,000 Buffalo running across the plains causing wrecks deaths and other mayhem, the only way your theory works is all peoples move into city’s and stay out of public forest lands period. Obviously you know nothing about wolf habituation to humans either, if you had your choice to live among wolves they would EAT YOU.
Idaho protected predators in the 1920s and 30s, cougers wiped out Idaho’s elk populations and Idaho purchased elk from Montana and re-introduced elk to my state, and lifted the ban on cougers hunting, since that era both the couger and the elk THRIVED under mans management.
Your out of touch with REALITY lady. We all kill our food, plants, flowers, fruits, vegy’s, animals all lived before it gets harvested and used, you drive a car most likely, you kill bugs on the windshield, you step on bugs in your yard, you kill ants and don’t even know it, ants are very productive creatures in this world and should be protected too, spiders live in your house, do you kill them, or set them on the lawn.
Get a life. You vote for liar political hacks who drop bombs on men women and children to save us all from the boogey man who wants to destroy America and its values, problem is they keep bombing the wrong people, because its YOU wants to destroy freedom.
I hunt to put untainted with anti-biotics and other chemicals poisened meats on my table. Wolves can stay, but managment is a must to control a balance which can not take place on its own due to people and towns and citys with roads highways, trains and planes, get it, in 1700 the animals were not LANDLOCKED like the are NOW, thus you have put an unmanaged predator in their cage and expect them to do fine. YOUR BOTH NUT CASES.
Your idiot theory will cause wolves to starve themselves out and die. We have cougers coming into town right now seeking cats and dogs for food, WHY do you think thats happening ? BECAUSE THE WILD GAME IS SO DEPLEATED BY WOLVES THEY MUST come into town seeking food, do you too even give a shit about some school kid getting killed.
ALL POLITICIANS Are out of TOUCH with we the peoples needs and you people still clinging to these liar criminals are out of touch AS WELL.
Bea, call me, I will personally pay for your trip into the Frank Church Wilderness so you have the priviledge of meeting a wolf pack, can you ride a horse ? I will take you to the wolves myself, cook for you even, lets go, lets see what you think about DEATH IN YOUR FACE FROM A VICIOUS PREDATOR that sees you as SLOW STUPID MEAT and nothing more.
I give you three days and your begging me to take you out of there. Just like the last dumb wolf hugger that took the dare.
Hey now, go vote for favorite serial killer political hack to save the world in four years. LMAO. Go vote for you BABY KILLERs, Dems killed over 55,000 American GIs in Nam, over 1.5 million Indigenous North Vietnamese, go vote suckers, Iraq is still costing us men, and innocent Iraqi’s, and Afgans, go vote suckers, go vote for more human deaths and your oil for blood campaigns-Crusades by both illegal UnConstitutional fake parties.
Hurry, pick a new killer of people.
Steve,
If you don’t agree, that’s fine, but please stop the name calling. I haven’t called anyone here stupid.
As far as calling you to spend some time with wolves, seriously, I would love to!. I don’t think my husband would like it though and he’s too busy travelling for work. (I work locally). I am not afraid of wild animals but I do respect them and realize that there are dangerous situations to stay away from.
That does not give anyone the right to treat them with disrespect and shoot them from airplanes, which often takes more than one shot, the animal is scared to death, and the animal SUFFERS.
ANIMAL SUFFERING IS NOT OK IF INTENTIONALLY CAUSED BY MAN.
Your posting doesn’t make sense. You said I voted for people who drop bombs…. how do you know who I voted for?
Killing spiders (intentionally or accidentally) hardly compares to an all out AIR ASSAULT on intelligent predators.
I have a life. Part of it is educating people such as yourself on cruelty to animals.
We have way too many elk in Estes Park. We need wolves there desperately (in Rocky Mountain National Park). So what do the politicians do? Bring in sharpshooters instead of wolves.
Steve,
Again, your posting assumes so much.
I know that Dems started the Vietnam war and Republicans ended it. I thought Nixon was a very good president and Kennedy didn’t do much at all except look good.
I am not a Democrat nor a Republican though I agree with some of what each says from time to time. I think independently of party lines, I vote independently and am a swingvoter.
Stop assuming so much about people because I like animals and don’t enjoy their suffering and persecution.
Is that wrong?
Whoops, I meant the above postings to go to GREG.
I’m sure Greg will respond, Bea, but just to take a look at your “reasoning” for a moment…
“often takes more than one shot, the animal is scared to death, and the animal SUFFERS.ANIMAL SUFFERING IS NOT OK IF INTENTIONALLY CAUSED BY MAN.”
So, if MAN causes suffering, it is not OK…But if an animal causes suffering or death, it is OK? That’s YOUR premise! OK?
So why don’t you and your friends simply walk in the woods with the wolves and let them eat you? According to your OWN logic and opinion, that is perfectly OK…..
Believe me, that is not a sensible or reasonable argument! Stop and think about your own way of thinking (for a change), or do they simply pay you to say anything you can to support THEIR agenda? (You did imply that you were employed by anti-animal cruelty employers)
I suppose you have seen the suffering caused by starvation, among animals who have grown to plentiful to exist with the available food sources? I suppose that is perfectly OK with you, too? After all, that is NOT caused by MAN!
Your agrements are lacking in reasoning ability, based on emotional grounds that are unsupported by reality, facts, or sound reasoning….I therefore assume you really aren’t worth listening to or taking the time to reply to with a logical or reasonal argument of those facts!
Well I suggest you bring the hubby my better half wouldn’t mind anyhow she trusts me completely.
A bullet from a pro is quick and clean most of the time. You need to wake up Kid, wolves start eating elk before the elk is dead, sometimes the elk may live 40 minutes before death while being eaton alive.
I’ve watched this disgusting event more than once. Have you ever heard a elk or deer scream in pain, I have, while being brutalized and eaton alive by wolves.
Wolves clamp onto the nose of an elk, and hamstring the hinds bringing the elk to the ground, if it is a pregnant cow elk they eat out the fetus and move on to the next kill, leaving the elk to bleed out helpless on the ground.
Wolves took down a calf elk on my land two year ago, ate the meat off the hinds in two spots, ate some meat off the belly and left, the calf died the next afternoon suffering miserably the entire time.
Idaho fish and game would not let us do the merciful thing and finish the calf elk.
I too wish you could have wolves come to your place where you have elk and then you could witness these same types of bloody brutality first hand.
I got news for you, you will still need people with guns to finish the dying and bleeding elk off which the wolves leave to suffer.
Thats the hard truth.
If you vote don’t you research politicians vote records at Congress, I do, and I do not vote, WHY, because they put us in foreign illegal wars and they KILL HUMANS, all based on lies and false flag BS.
Just so U.S. Corporate subject slaves can drive their nice cars around looking pretty.
http://www.daily.pk./world/84-worldnews/6726-barack-obama-is-not-a-us-citizen.html
JFK, took on the ruling elites who run things from the shadows and attempted to expose them, shut down their CIA, IRS, printed real money enterest free, attempted to open the eyes of Americans, attempted to stop Vietnam, to bad he didnt wear a bullet proof hat, it is all a matter of record.
No presidential puppet since has had the courage to try it again. Funny how the same old money gets behind the new candidates saying the same old bullshit, and the American u.s. subject slaves rush out and vote for the new miracle man to save them all over again, then after four years, another let down, they all do it again.
Talk about consistancy, somebody has you all pegged.
I’m a woman, don’t hunt, but I have many woman friends that do and are faithful GOP.
They are voting Obama because:
1) Palin has ignored science in favor of faux-science in her support of sports hunting wolves from planes. My friends–not sport hunters–don’t approve of sport hunting, and neither do I. None of us (some are GOP, some Dems, some Libertarians and Some Independents) likes the concept of shooting animals from planes (half the time, they exhaust the animal and literally have to land on the ground and shoot the wolf from 12 feet… some sport). Every single one of these women won’t be voting for McCain. Two won’t be voting at all they are so angry.
2. Two of the group–Hillary supporters–won’t be voting McCain/Palin either. They see her pick as a desperate plea to attract women (Obama has lead McCain in the women’s vote) regardless of qualifications or history.
The bottom line is this: Palin has too much baggage and is stepping into shoes manufactured for her, not of her own doing.
She isn’t breaking ANY ceilings. She’s just embarrassing some of us.
cany, not only do you not hunt, but, evidently, you don’t read, either! Just take a look at any of the posts on this subject……
“IT’S NOT SPORT HUNTING” (is that clear enough?)
It’s not even “HUNTING”….(it’s killing an overpopulated number of predators by fish and game authorities that want to keep a balance of animals in control)
NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
(I doubt that you even care to be informed, probably just doing what some wolf lover organization has paid you to do!)
Is there ever any reasoning with a woman?
You know what, logical readers know who won this debate, emotional readers pushing lies get the government they deserve. http://www.wolvesinrussia.com/
It just go’s to show us the real objective is to demonize a culture of self sufficiant people like myself harvesting plants, roots, berries, herbs, meats, such as elk, deer, ducks, grouse and being independent and free of the control of socialist nonsense which historically has a 100% failure rate, by design. Democracy also failed in history in every Nation it was tried in, FACT. But then our Republic only survived 92 years. Some day man will get it, AND REVERT BACK TO OUR HEAVENLY FATHER, who is waiting for man to realize MAN CAN NOT RULE MAN, not even men in pretty robes wearing jewels who have a taste for little boys. Those Wolves in SHEEPS robes.
Jes, you’re right. It’s not sport hunting, it’s not even hunting — it’s barbaric killing/torture/maiming of our incredible predatory animals.
As far as Palin trying to represent “women,” that’s a joke. She is embarrassing herself mostly with trying to compare herself with Hillary.
Most women will not — and do not — identify with her. She is a far right wing radical, out of touch with today’s society. I am she’s lived her adult life in remote Alaska with a population of what — ??? She has no clue of the problems of cities, etc. Does she even know what a city is?
McCain may be getting into a fight on gun control that he didn’t ask for. People do not want to deal with those issues right now — it’s the economy and Iraq “stupid.”
Now we’re going to be hit with Palin’s in your face NRA gun toting political garbage, I’m sure.
Hunters I personally know are also getting tired of NRA strong arm tactics as well too.
Right after the Columbine incident here in Colorado, Charleton Heston still insisted on holding his NRA convention/rally. He showed absolutely NO concern whatsoever about the timing — or respect — for those who lost loved ones and callously continued with his fight for gun rights.
Don’t even be so pompous and arrogant to pretend to know me from a few postings on a forum.
Kill two birds with one stone.
Poison the wolves by feeding them animal lovers, PETA heads, and global warming enviromentalist.
There ya go, now everybody’s happy. I’ve got my limit of birds and got rid of a wolve and an enviromentalist wacko. I think yer gonna have to roll those PETA heads in peanut butter to get the wolves to eat ‘em though. The grizzly bears said they taste awful.
Bea,
No one here was pompous and arrogant, no one attempted to assume they got to know you, YOU went up against Scholarly facts which you ignored and kept on with your blind rhetoric, wolves are harmless, wolves are cute.
While admitting you have not experienced wolves up close living near you, but its fine for them to be in my yard where they kill my dogs, horses, and threaten our children at the bus stop.
The man made government even says I can not protect my own life against an Endangered Species, or my childs life, or my my animals which are my property.( Thats Insanity) If I do so I go to jail. Wolves are not even an endangered species, thats a lie.
The governemt installed the wolves into our environment, years after the government removed them, now the government flies around shooting them when they cause problems which must be addressed, YOUR GOVERNMENT that you support and pay taxes to does what you are whining about.
Your political party which could be either party supports FWS actions, the FWS is in control of all state game and fish commissions nation wide, those cute little wolves were doing just fine where they were before this illegal ESA program dumped them in our yards. Go whine to your Congressmen, they gave FWS the unauthorized authority to do it.
I know enough about you reading your replys to know you believe in lies or are paid to do what your doing by posting emotionally based nonsense backed by nothing of scholarly value.
I posted the ESA illegal actions and facts in this thread, go research them. It is a U.N action, it is re-wilding america, the U.N charter is agenda 21, it is 1060 pages, have you read it ? I doubt you have. It means literally all rural citizens in those re-wilded areas must move out eventually, thats the goal you support. That means you too.
The 140 page re-wilding document PDF file is here at this web site, go read it, get a clue.
Doctors and FDA preservative poisens, Alcohol, drugs, and warefare abroad each individually kills more humans than guns in America do annually. Medical mistakes alone kill 750,000 patients annually in the United States, not sick insane satan worshippers shooting up schools for kicks like those two boys at Columbine who must of had some real lazy parents.
I say we BANN Doctors. And irresponsible parents who fail to raise their children with moral and ethics and let them stair into video games and tv sets being stupified with crap.
Go surrender your gun rights and leave mine alone.
Did you even realize those idiots at Columbine specifically targeted born again christain students ? probably didnt research that info either did you. Those two boys were satanic worshippers and very sick, and did a terrible deed, but why should Heston cancil a pre to that terrible event scheduled convention.
We know what you emotionally feel about wolfie, and Sarah Palin, We are still waiting for you to tell us what you really “THINK” about.
John McCain is the chosen one, he sealed it with NRA supporter Palin, mother, wife, and in no way attempts to be any thing like Hillary Dillary extreme leftist pretending to be moderate Rodham Jew Clinton. The election is a selection and its over already, get out of Newmans world!!!
Palin is pro gun, pro creationism, anti sodomite marriage, anti liberal socialist communist marxists wolf hugger freaks believing in lies.
Your society is crumbling apart.
Greg,
Take a breath. I think if you had a gun you’d be shooting me right now in all your hatred and anger.
“John McCain is the chosen one?”
Wow — are you hearing voices now?
You are obviously a very angry, in your face individual who doesn’t understand the role predators play in ecosystems.
Where did I say wolves (or any wild animal) can’t be dangerous?
So if an animal is dangerous, that gives man the right to shoot it from airplanes? (Are you able to stick to one subject? It seems you may have ADD.)
They are not killing wolves from airplanes in Alaska because they are “dangerous” animals. Any wild animal can be dangerous. You think because people such as myself protect predatory animals, we think they’re not dangerous? Of course they are — and so are domestic dogs. In fact, domestic dogs and livestock combined injure and/or kill far more people per year than wild animals. Look it up!
Don’t pretend to even speak for or know “my political party.” You have no idea who I’ve voted for in the past. Don’t portend to “know me” — you know nothing about me or predatory animals.
Research the subject and then come back when you are informed enough to hold an intelligent discussion and stick to one topic without rambling on.
Greg,
Why not read what our government has done to predatory animals over the yearse If you dare to find out the truth!
Michael Robinson’s Predator Bureaucracy — read it and then discuss the issue.
And where did I say guns should be banned???
You are just a fool who doesn’t even read postings properly.
Wolves clamp onto the nose of an elk, and hamstring the hinds bringing the elk to the ground, if it is a pregnant cow elk they eat out the fetus and move on to the next kill, leaving the elk to bleed out helpless on the ground.
***************************************
Greg,
Maybe you should complain to God that you don’t like how he’s designed nature?
I mean, what a stupid thing to be “mad” about!
Nature works how nature works.
Wolves were (and are) a native part of our North American ecosystem.
Lambs and cattle were not designed to be here by Mother Nature. The native animals instinctively know this and are simply trying to protect their territory.
If man left the scene, who do you think would survive? Not the domestic animals I can tell you.
It’s survival of the fittest.
It’s always been that way, always will.
Point made, is the suffering caused by one predator any less painful than another? Your whining about humans controlling predators with guns which is not as painful as the actions of the predator itself in question when it takes down its prey, which is not the problem at all, the problem is to many predators over killing their prey. mainly WOLVES.
Wolves are not creating balance, its called IMBALANCE. Other wise know as hooved herd failures in three states, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho. I’m living in it and watching first hand.
I’m not mad about it, the predator needs to be culled, all of them, or they threaten humans eventually, and decimate other species. Take man out of the picture and your theory works, agenda 21 is working on just that idea.
Votes are controlled in this country by the elites and have been for years, see the book Votescam. Not only that the same money is behind all candidates, that should arouse suspician in itself.
I correctly picked Bush, then Clinton, then Bush again, now I pick McCain, it is a blood lines thing in relation to European Royalty, Seems our Presidential candidate’s with the richer blood relating them to these old family blood lines get the Oval Office. McCain has the Richer Blood over Obama.
Neither McCain or Obama would be my choice. It is a simple study of these peoples family trees. every president has been the richer blood in history, not to hard to figure that out if you do the work to search the tree. Simple. No voices, hard work.
I have picked Mccain months ago, all though I see a curve ball being tossed and could well see the elite controllers of our elections changing up their game. But I made my call, and I will stick to it.
That said I wonder at people falling all over themselves about this Obama because its the same old song and dance as Bush gave eight years ago, just softer.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9995
More war is what both idiots are offering, no one will be satisfied with either one.
Thats right survival of the fittest, now go back packing in the Frank Church and enjoy that eco system. PLEASE.
Again, you are always assuming things. I don’t subscribe to the Frank Church.
I simply have a problem with brutalizing and persecuting our predators under the scientifically UNSOUND guise of “predator control.”
It’s not a difficult concept.
Sure Bea, Whatever, let the wolves kill every thing and then the wolves will starve to death, the sooner the better.
Yawn.
Here’s a concept.
Instead of aerial killing, club them on the head. Good luck
with that one….
Is there a better way to kill off these killers? Years ago,
when it was open season on wolves, sightings and incidences
were far and few between. Wolves aren’t stupid. They stayed
away. But anymore, they encroach where they can…. where no
one shoots at them. If that concept was back, the wolves
would act accordingly and stay away from people and property,
idealistically.
If we could get past what it might feel like being chased and
killed, some of the means by which to control the predators
may become more relevant. They have to be controlled. If you don’t think so, then, you don’t.
Sarah Palin governs a state where people live with and care
for it’s animals. People, not animals, are protected first.
Animals are protected second.
If you lived in Alaska you would have daily contacts with
various native people. Numerous tribes with names difficult
to utter. Customs, still intact, that are foreign to white
men. These are the people that require protection from the
wolves. Ask them if they are just kidding about too many
wolves or if they get a kick out of den hunting. No one wants to do it. It has to be done as a last resort…to keep
the killers from killing us.
Skidoos (native, for snow machine)aren’t really agile or fast
enough, as the wolve has no problem attacking you while you
ride. B.J. calls it his “ski-doo hide”. His other hide was
acquired in the same manner……no choice.
But, if, after all, you think preditor control is scientific-
ally unsound, that’s your opinion. It’s my opinion that preditor control is as important as an EMT unit or fire
control……a necessity.
Have Alaskan Fish and Game MANAGEMENT live capture 3000 wolves and drop them off in Estes Park, problem solved, then Bea can love her adorable fluffie little 160 pound wolves all she wants. Better keep your family pets in the house though, and no more human children walking to and from school, then we can all be happy.
Indians would never engage in a brutal air assault on any animals. Only white men with sagging insecure egos. Sorry but that is the truth.
Native American Indiginous peoples are not “Indians” which was the name put upon them by the Invading European’s from Spain and England. Check India out though, there’s Injuns in India.. Your right they wouldn’t use a helicopter, or plane, they would use a club and beat the wolves to death.
Aviation fuel is to expensive right now and so are bullets, Native American Indiginous people are penny pinchers, unlike stupid corporate u.s. subject 14th Amendment slave tax-payers willing to pay $350,000 per wolf in the wolf ESA program, and allow it to run about eating up every thing including themselves eventually.
Insult whitey all you want, you really should lay off the Natives.
That is the truth and I am not sorry, I’m not sorry at all.
ar, we need another 3000 wolves shipped to Alabama pronto, them folks down yonder in Alabama been relaxing on the porch to long with them banjo’s, time to get em some excercise runnin for their lives……
No it isn’t, Bea, come on. “Indians” are the people described above. They are first in line, the reason, first
contact, if you will, for getting control on the over-abun-
dance of wolves. The children, for one, should not have to
stay inside because of it. Wolves will lug off the kids.
In case you haven’t heard, they will send a younger one to
coax a domestic dog away far enough to kill it. “Indians”
also own sled dogs. Not all, but some. They have to be able to kill the wolves somehow. Have any suggestions?
I agree, Greg. Alabama Jim is probably bored as hell down
there with just some little ole’ deer n’ rabbits to chase.
I wonder what he thinks of wearing a bell around his neck to
keep himself safe from bears.
Yup. You’re wrong.
Once again, it reminds me of the way the Eskimo used to get rid of wolves: they’d wind springy sharpened bones inside a chunck of fat or blubber and let it freeze, then feed it to the wolves….when they ate it, it opened up inside their guts, and slivered their stomach….
Wonder if that was crueler than those “awful aerial wolf shooters”?
Either way sounds practical to me. If you want to save what’s left of our elk and deer. And yes, Bea, that’s OUR, as in hunters who brought them back from extinction…..
Too bad there isn’t aerial hunting on people who want to aerial hunt animals. Give ‘em a taste of their own medicine.
I can’ t believe I’m reading the above!
The American Indian always respected the wolf. The only predator to the wolf is man…not the othr way around. The wolf keeps the herds down.
How criminal to airborne hunt…nothing more dispicable!
Here, girls. Read this.
http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2008/08/30/hunters-unite-to-save-the-hunting-culture/
Hunters did not “bring back wolves from extinction.”
Learn the definitions between “extinction” and extermination.
Cattle ranchers, with the help of their buddies in D.C., in order to “sanitize the land for cattle” exterminated predators. They wantonly and brazenly killed all the predators they could find by any cruel means they desired, all with the help of tax dollars and the “biological survey” now called “Wildlife Services.” under the USDA.
Yea, Wildlife “Services” is currently “servicing” about 1.6 million animals per year, about 150,000 mammals to help ranchers — using tax dollars. Who is helping me with my business with subsidies? It’s called “Welfare Ranching” — where cattle is also being grazed on BLM lands, displacing native wildlife and predators who are only trying to find a home while man keeps pushing them further and further out.
PS: I think your mentality about predators needs exterminating.
An article on Sarah Palin’s policies. It mentions this blog.
http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2008/08/30/animals-and-money-palins-fiscal-weakness-for-hunters/
Aunt Bea,
Thats twice you have threatened us with death, aerial shooting, and extermination. You want us dead, we get the picture. To kill a persons mentality is to kill the person. To shoot aerial government hunters from the air is to attempt to kill humans. In other words a difference of beliefs on our parts according to you means we need to be killed, is this environmentalist JIHAD you are threatening against good American people living in rural areas who want to live in peace and not have predators on their yards harrassing them at all hours of the night, due to lack of fear of humans and respect. It sure sounds like threats of death to me.
We with a different opinion than yourself need killed according to you. Sounds religious to me, which that is what environmentalism has become, a religion, and before it is done and the United nations Charter Agenda 21 is fully implemented many many people in the USA are going to be killed BEA, Keep talking you dumb bitch, your really blowing it.
I have a good mind to call the FBI and file a complaint agaisnt you.
Tom,
Bea is saying killing humans would be better than killing out of control wolves which are nothing but damn dogs. Simply due to a difference of beliefs. She offers no valid points, and will never reach comon ground intellectually with normal thoughts, I’d ban her.
Greg,
ha-ha, you’re too funny! Go ahead and call — ‘m shaking in my high heels. You’re so out of control with your swearing and crazy postings there is no use talking to you.
It’s your thinking that animals are inanimate objects — you can’t stand it when people who don’t agree with you who don’t like to see animals abused that needs a total redo.
Many hunters, may I inform you, agree with my views.
That aerial hunting is immoral.
Auntie Bea,
Aerial euthanisation by state or federal biologists. It is not hunting. It is putting down problem animals harming hooved herd balance and or threating man, woman, or children. Your just out to demonize hunting and hunters. Wishing other humans a violent death is immoral, you wished it here twice. your immoral. Predators to exist amongst humans must be managed, offer a better solution or shut up. It is IMMPOSSIBLE for predators to manage themselves and their PREY. DUH…..
Now go fix Andie and Opie some cookies and milk…..HAHAHA
Bea, thanks for your referral to “wallypop”, it’s such a great site for the anti-hunters that I thought I’d leave a post for you….since you seem to like to pester the hunters….why don’t we pester you? Tit for tat!
And this one is free! Maybe you should work for free in your anti-hunters league….if you’re passionate enough! I know for sure I am!
Actually, I hope that you can’t respond to this blog anymore, since you don’t have any more right than I have to push your own emotion down someone else’s throat….and it’s a given, that your reasoning ability is severely limited because of it!
It has been said never argue with an idiot. They can and will drag you down to their level, if you let them. I don’t want to kill Bea or any of these lost minds, I want to show them the truth. Some find it, others never will, untill later.
She showed that she wants innocent biologists and even hunters dead, she said it twice, when those types lose and arguement they get violent. Ive been to meetings at Wildlife Events and had my windshield on my truck smashed by them, dents in my truck and such. I don’t care, I keep going becasue tellin truth and doing right has got no end.
Either people get logical and seek evidence to support their belief system, or they let some one else do it for them, then they can and fail to back their play.
Evidence and facts always out rules emotions.
Just don’t pretend you care about wildlife then as wolves are part of “wildlife.” You care about it as much as you can GET what you want from it.
No use talking to you and your wolf hating cronies as you don’t have the capacity to even remotely at an intelligent level, discuss any issues.
Wolves aren’t the problem. It’s thinking like yours that is the real problem. Now go away please!
Greg,I see what you mean
Auntie Bea,
I don’t pretend to care about wild life thats why I’m fighting to save wild life from an unmanaged wild wolf, as well as hunting for healthy meat, plants, roots, organic fruits, nuts, grains, to sustain a very healhty lifestyle I also help the 17 years Doctor of Veterinary Medicine, my wife heal wild birds, deer, elk, squirrels, rabbits,And other critters.. coyotes, yes we even fixed a coyote up, we would even fix a hurt wolf, thats because un-like indoctrinated with lies human haters such as you we wouldnt even kick a wolf that was down. As well as fixing up horses, cows, sheep, and family pets. I know more about animal care than you ever dreamed of knowing. I’ve seen what wild wolves with no management or fear of humans do up close, I care about the truth, not your lies which you believe in, which you can not even factually or even using evidence back up with any proof other than EMOTION.
I think Andy wants a bowl of ice cream, better jump to it woman….
I’m strarting to like this….sometimes it takes a goad, to get the truth….and a little extra…LOL
Thanks, Greg!
I wouldn’t want to live in a world where people only make decisions based on so-called “logic.” That makes them into nothing but — what– computers?
Decisions should be based on logic AND emotion. That’s what makes HUMANS human. Maybe you’re not human. Or maybe someone pissed you off so badly once that you want to get even? Or show your “dominance” over creatures that cannot protect themselves?
The difference is that I truly value wildlife — especially mammals and predatory animals. They are magnificient. I would love to live close to an area like Yellowstone; with an INTACT wildlife system WITHOUT men interfering, meddling, and trying to “manage” wildlife.
The problem is, people who grew up and live in places like Alaska take their wildife for granted; they don’t appreciate it. They all should try living in the other states where the wildlife has been displaced by development.
I don’t believe, though, that you make decisions based on “logic” only. No one does.
You yourself admitted that you would help a hurt coyote or wolf. Why? Logic says it won’t bring you any money, so why bother? Why not just kill it?
Because you have, and use, emotion in your decisions.
Well I wouldn’t want to make a decision based on logic nor emotions but rather based on Right and Wrong. Sometimes our minds say one thing while our emotions tell us something completely different. That is why it is not only important but necessary to have a standard of ethics to fall back onto in order to determine what is right and what is wrong.
When two individuals use different measuring sticks to measure right and wrong you will usually come up with 2 different solutions.
OK I agree with you there (different measuring sticks).
People tend to assume that those who protect wolves, bears, etc. are going to be “liberal” and they automatically assume I’m for health care run by the government, etc etc. I am definitely not for those kinds of things. The government shouldn’t decide how I spend my money though we do need taxes for things like roads, etc. I am a fiscal conservative and don’t believe in huge taxes to get “free” services.
A friend once said to me, “you can’t be a Republican tree hugger.”
Well that’s why I am a registered independent and vote depending on what’s important to me. And I am sorry but I can’t stand to see animals chased and brutalized.
I can’t stand to see animals brutalized either. That’s why I support population control of wolves. If you care about elk and moose then you would know there is more harm in the long run to do nothing.
Alaska’s government only cares about increasing moose and caribou to bring in more hunting money from out of state licenses. They think they can “control” and “manage” wildlife.
Wildlife cannot, and should not, be artificially controlled. Wildlife does not “belong” to anyone who wants to “take it” except arrogant humans who think if they can dominate it, they own it.
Man’s “dominion” over animals is not only what we can “get” and “take” from animals, but how well we take care of them. We are their stewards. If I were an animal, I certainly would not want to depend on man — or trust man. God help the animals — if someone isn’t hunting them, they’re being poisoned (prairie dogs), run out of their native territory by cattle ranching or development, or otherwise harrassed.
When can they just be left alone?
Elk displaced by development is exactly the problem with wolves in Idaho Wyoming and Montana, the wolf is the only dominant predator decimating elk and deer 365 days a year in those three states. Human hunters only have three weeks per hunting season a year to put an elk or deer in the freezer. Most are not successful, it is the out of doors experiance for most. Scientists put the wolf back into this system here, those same scientists are manageing their pet wolf program how they see fit. Your making assumptions from your monday arm chair about events you have never experianced and if you had wolves knocking on your door you would be asking for help too. The decimation of hooved herds in Idaho, with herds in collapse and cow to calf ratio’s less than 30%, is what wolves brought to Idaho. When your “great and majestic wolf” kills them out, and it will, then the wolves will starve to death, that is a worse death than being shot, and the wolf program will fail due to anti-hunters like your self thinking you know best, even though you have never experianced real wild life management. Your theory is to punish peoples lives and individuality’s which you have never known. I’ve lived it all my life, every time I walk out side I could get killed by a couger or bear here. I love animals, seeing them ripped to shreds by wolves sucks. Wolves kill off competing predators, coyotes, foxes, bears, wolves digg up hybernating bears in winter and kill em, wolves killed two foxes right in front of me last winter, dug em up out of their den in the snow and ripped them apart, and left em to rot. You can go on and on about your Bull shit, with out mans intervention and management of wolves to keep their numbers in balance with existing hooved herds numbers, you got no hooved game, and you got no wolves period, you don’t have to like it, it is the facts of life. Your theory is just as brutal, your theory is to do nothing and cause wolves to starve to death. My head is logical, my heart is emotional, difference is my head runs my heart, not backwards like you.
So in your view, the wolf is a “mean” animal and eats out of hatred,shredding its victim because it’s fun?
That is laughable! I mean really!
You pride yourself on your logic. Do you think it’s pretty when they slaughter an animal in a slaughtering plant? So, those workers, then, in your view, are also vicious?
Oh, that’s different, right?
There is no logic to your hatred of wolves. Gotta go.
It’s appalling that this woman, who’s known in certain circles as the “Animal Nazi”, was picked as VP by McCain! The slaugher of wolves, shooting them from airplane, is barbaric, and cruel beyond belief! Not only that Sarah Palin is a strong supporter of this policy, but she’s encouraging it by giving $150 prize for every one who brings in a killed wolf. That this woman is now being hailed & admired by the Republicans as the best candidate for the VP position is a very sad comment on that party, as well as the entire American society.
Kim Corwin
It will only get worse. The next thing ya know, VP Palin
will want no gay marriages and abstinense education. Next is
probably guns for everyone. What then?
All of this is really sounding familiar. People that don’t even live in Alaska trying to tell them how to take care of their wolf problems. Kind of like people that don’t even live in Idaho trying to tell us that we shouldn’t be concerned about our wolf problems. I don’t live in Alaska therefore I think it should be up to them and there game biologists to figure out how to take care of there problems. I do however live in Idaho and am getting tired of people that don’t telling us what we should think and do. And Bea why on earth would colorado hire sharp shooters to control the elk population in Estes Park rather than opening it up for tags that could be sold so they could use the monies for the game and habitat? Also what are they doing with the elk they cull? Hopefully someone is getting some use out of it like the homeless or needy families.
Indeed, Mike.
The independent studies that have looked into wolf populations and those of elk and Caribou have concluded that the aeiral hunting program and lowering of the wolf population DOES NOT HELP TO INCREASE the populations of elk and caribou. Wake up and get the facts. You are being used and sold false information if you believe it is neccessary.
Check out these sites for more info:
http://osirisjournal2.wordpress.com/2008/08/30/sarah-palin-non-defender-of-wildlife/
http://www.grizzlybay.org/SarahPalinInfoPage.htm
This is not a matter of hunters rights or gun rights. It is a matter of common decency. Aeiral hunting is barbaric and beyond cruel. It is as bad or worse than clubbing baby seals in Japan.
It is a ugly blight on our nation.
I am an independent who was going to vote for McCain - but he just lost my vote.
Henry Rhyne
[...] Actually do you know the story behindJim Richards: I heard once she was cited inHenry Rhyne: The independent studies that have looked intoar: Indeed, [...]
More la la la.
Osiris’s Phallic stretching out minds again with false dogma from the decievers of reality. Your correct, LA LA LA Land.
Steve, I am impressed (and very glad) that you would help an animal that is down/hurt. So I am surprised that you support the barbaric aerial hunting of ANY animal.
Palin’s voice is very annoyingly nasaly-sounding. I fear she will try to shove her opinions down everyone’s throats — her hunting and religious opinions.
Mike, I agree it was completely stupid to hire sharpshooters. Unfortunately, we don’t have enough wolves yet in Colorado. We are hoping for more and Colorado supports them.
Henry, I was going to vote for McCain too — until he brought this Palin in. Killing certain animals to appease hunters and bring in more hunting dollars does not and will never sit well with many, many people.
Blubber is not very scarce this year, Greg. Ever had any?
Mike, I found out that since Rocky Mountain National Park is a national park designed for people and tourists, etc. They don’t want hunting there and it hasn’t been allowed since the 1920’s. The legislators were in agreement about allowing hunters in to “cull” the elk at one point. I can’t seem to find out what happened after that. Many Coloradoans were advocating for wolves to replace the sharpshooters as native wolves that kept the herds in balance had been completely exterminated by the feds — at taxpayer expense — looking after the cattle industry. That is criminal.
Bea,
I spent a good deal of my life in western colorado living on the side of Grand Mesa in a small town by the name of Cedaredge. I’ve got footprints all over hat mountain from lands end all he way to electric mountain. I still keep in touch with my hunting partners from there and they are NOT in favor of more wolves in Colorado. I’ve heard from them that the mule deer are finally getting back to where they were 20 years ago and they don’t feel it’s worth the risk of bringing in another predator, especially one as effecient as a wolf. There were a few wolves on Grand Mesa when I lived there, we saw them and heard them but according to fish and game we were just seing things or maybe it was just big coyotes. We saw a Wolverine in Yankee Boy basin above Ouray while hiking one year also but accordng to them it was just probably a bear cub. There are things in the woods that many people don’t think there are but you can’t see them from the house. If you do get wolves in Colordo for Estes Park I hope you have a way to keep them from the rest of the state otherwise Colorado will no longer be the #1 elk huning state in the nation, but then again that may be what you guys are after anyway. No elk, no deer, no hunting, no food, no wolves and then maybe my granchildren can look at pictures to see what it was like in the good old days when we used to hunt and managed our game herds for the game and not wolf food. I never did hear what the park was doing with the elk they cull. Are they giving it to people who can use it or are they just piling them up for the ravens?
Liberal pro-sodomite pro-murder in the womb, anti-gun, anti-creationism, anti-Americanism, anti-Constitution, anti Bill Of Rights, anti-DeJure Individual Sovereign status, Pro-subject citzen with zero rights marxist socialist depopulationists of humanity are not people, they are mindcontrolled subjects who accept a higher authority of elitists trillionaires ideology’s of a One World Government, Church religion, New World Order.
See Agenda 21, see the Re-wilding of America documents, hese are the documents George H.W. Bush signed in Rio at the 1992 United Nations Conference on Envionment and Development, these Agenda’s were written up in the 1960s, and have slowly been Implemented through out the United States for 40 years, but more aggressivley since Our “Republican” President signed the document Agenda 21.
This puts the United Nations in control of our Fish and Wild Life Service, Our Forest Service, The Endangered Species Act, which is under the FWS control, The Re-Wilding of America Act. Also your Country has been indoctrinating subject citizens via the public school system, via Agenda 21. Read the Documents, see the proof. Understand who and what we stand against, they want our guns, they want to stop all hunting, they eventually intend to have us STAY OFF THE LANDS PERIOD.
Get educated on these matters and help to spread the knowledge, we are behind in this fight, all this Animals have more rights than humans and we are mistreating animals is an attack on Liberty, and our Rights. It is the loss of Property Rights Nation Wide, it is the loss of Public access to Public Lands Nation Wide, for every body, even the Bea’s of this Nation who have been tricked, decieved, into the lies they believe in.
The only way these predators live in these area’s with any semblance of success is we move out of all rural area’s in the west, which is being called out for via these documents, even though American’s have properly managed wildlife for 150 years, for the benefit of wildlife and the benefit of hunter harvest, for the family which needs the meat on their table, these fools believe a 40 year old LIE.
Wolves were never in danger of being extinct, with over 100,000 wolves in Canada, with 150,000 wolves in Russia, Alaska has to many wolves, Idaho HAD NATIVE WOLVES PRIOR TO THIS RE-INTRODUCTION LIE, many of us truth tellers provided FWS and Idaho Fish and Game with PROOF, yet we were ignored. I watched wolves in Idaho from the age of 12 until I was 36, I am now 49, those Native Wolves have been killed by the larger re-introduced FWS Hybrids. The States of Montana/Wyoming/Idaho are suffering Elk Herd Collapse, and even if the wolves, bears, coyotes, cougers, Grizzly’s are removed from the picture, THESE HERDS WILL NOT RECOVER WITH OUT MANS HELP. Colorado would be wise to avoid this re-introduction at all costs.
The wolf is a Agenda 21 tool, No food source for hunters, no hunting, Idaho has re-duced controlled elk tags by 50%, Wyoming has made tag re-ductions for hunters from out of state, and perhaps more since that was three years ago. Hunters better get loud and proud, or lose it forever fella’s, DO NOT LET ME SAY I TOLD YOU SO IN THE FUTURE. What is happening to us all is far worse than you think.
I don not appreciate that an animal needs to be killed by GOVERNEMNT BIOLOGISTS using aerial tactics, but I realize there is no other way to do it in Alaska due to terrain difficulty’s. It is quite simply a job which needs to be done to save ungulates, Moose, Caribou, and other species from the decimation of wolf OVER POPULATIONS.
Many pro wolf and anti gun, anti hunters in Idaho after seeing the truth first hand have changed their minds about wolves. Many people are to intimidated to use the forest now, WHY, because the wolves do not respect humans, Our horse can no longer be left to graze while we hike, some area’s are so bad back-packers sleep in hammacks up in the trees at night. you leave your camping gear alone and go hiking, when you get pack its all pissed on, by guess who?
Why do we not have cougers jumping from our roof top to kill us in late evening or early morning when we walk to our car, because we hunted them, and they fear man. It still happens once in awhile, a couger killed a man in his back yard recently in New Mexico. Due to lack of wild deer in this area we are seeing cougers in broad day light in TOWN, why, becasue wolves have eaton up all the deer.
Bea, you better get wise and stop wishing for something you will REGRET in the future. The damage is real. Think about it, before we settled America 200 years ago, this old theory worked, now with all of these community’s in the way it will not work. thus Agenda 21 of the U.N. Charter and the Re-Wilding Of America, has the solution. WE ALL MOVE TO SOME CITY OR WORSE, this means you to.
I can accept that you do not like aerial removal of over populations of wolves or other animals, I can not accept that you support lies while whining about your discomforts. Offer a damned solution to these problems, we all know what you don’t like, you have told us about thity five times now.
Your demonizing innocent people with your nonsense. Face the truth for a change. stop helping a foreign invasion by the U.N. who created this fiasco to devide and destroy this nation and its working excellent for them, with your help.
What the heck are you talking about “Agenda 21?” This sounds like some kind of paranoia thing to me…..
But, again, with all respect, if your ideas are true (I think you are either a bit paranoid or trying to use scare tactics), please pardon my language, but didn’t white man decimate buffalo to kill off the Indian culture? Do you think it might be pay back time? I’m honestly not trying to argue, really, but think about that. Karma — what goes around, comes around?
I want to say this loud and clear — I personally do not think all hunters are “bad.” I don’t care for the ones who don’t “like” native predatory animals and want to hurt them.
And as far as wolves, there are many different species and subspecies of wolves, so you can’t say ‘one wolf is the same as another wolf.’
Canadian wolves, for example, are not the same as gray wolves that were habitating in the USA before the Biological Survey (now Wildlife Services) killed them off at taxpayer expsense to appease the livestock industry. This criminal division also killed bobcats. There are photos of bobcats piled up dead in trucks in “Predatory Bureaucracy.” Is that right?! You seem to be advocating for complete extermination of predatory animals!
Do you not believe wildlife and nature keeps itself in balance? Do you honestly believe that man needs to “manage” wildlife?
Predatory animals are coming closer to man because of man’s encroachment (development, livestock, hunting) on THEIR territory — not the other way around. The livestock industry — with the aid of taxpayer dollars, routinely poisons small animals, which is the food source for coyotes, wolves and other predators. So without a reliable food source in the wild, they come closer to livestock, etc. to eat. It’s not hard to understand why they do what they do.
If you are personally getting your food source from the wild, then I can understand why you are concerned. Still, no one HAS to eat meat from the wild to survive.
If I had to choose, if you have COMPETENT hunters (which there are many INCOMPETENT ones who maim animals and can’t find them! In fact Alaska has the HIGHEST PERCENTAGE of hunting accidents too) it’s probably more “humane” than keeping animals in tiny cages where they can’t move around for their entire lives — veal, for example. It IS cruel. People make fun of PETA supporters but they are right on a number of issues such as factory farming cruelty.
It IS cruel to have an animal living in conditions like that.
Colorado has done survey after survey and 69% of the population is for having wolves here. That’s right — 69%.
Wolves are not going to hang out in cities. They go where there is proper habitat for them. If that habitat is also “your” habitat, well, what can I say? That’s how God designed it. Maybe you should complain to him?
A lot of people like to use the Bible to claim man has “dominion” over animals. When did “dominion” turn into abuse?
If any animal is threatening me, my first reaction would be to protect myself, but not necessarily kill the animal. There are lots of other ways to protect yourself — loud noises, etc.
People that live close to nature also take it for granted. Just wait until all the countryside is nothing but condos and concrete.
Oh, man! You need to get out more!
I am now beginning to understand there is nothing I can do but sit back and watch as we spiral into the abyss. God help us all…
If I’m not mistaken Buffalo Hides were a commodity exported to Europe along with Beaver Pelts. In our early history what the land produced and animals provided were what started our economy. It was not until the 1900 that the industrial revolution started to gain ground in the US. A plot or plan to exterminate the Indians? Could just be it was an unintentional result of commerce. Just like these Wolfs were back and forth about.
At least she admits she dosen’t know what shes talking about, LMAO.
Here Beatrice;
http://www.sovereignty.net/p/sd/agenda21rpt.htm
http://www.newswithviews.com/Weeks/darren2.htm
http://green-agenda.com/sustainabledevelopment.html
http://green-agenda.com/agenda21.html
http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/environmental-governance/variable661.html
http://www.robodoon.com/global_un_agenda_21.htm
http://www.newswithviews.com/Shaw/michael1.htm
We are on Planet Earth in case you didn’t realize that, we are on the North American Face…Between Canada and Mexico… East is Washington D.C. and the Atlantic Ocean, West is the Pacific Ocean, 200 some odd years ago we established freedom of what the hell ever turns yer crank, get it.
Paranoid you say……No, but smart enough To no BETRAYAL when I see it. I really do hope you get your wolves down there in Colorado, in fact you can have all of ours from Idaho, soon as I can toss a loop on them critters I’ll haul them on down to ya, be happy to do it.
Wait, wait, Hang on, I think there headed your way soon actually, they’ve about cleaned us outta house and home here, God Almighty Ladie you can have em…..( FU@#45^K ).
SNAFU…FUBAR…..Keep yer powder fellers were in for the long haul.
Silver Trident Wolves Hater Over…………Check Hater, shes lost her doggies OVER.
I’ve been reading about a study that was done utilizing the journals of Lewis and Clark in attempting to make a determination about the availability of large game, i.e. deer, moose, elk, bison, in the areas where they traveled.
This was made easier by the fact that Lewis and Clark kept track of game seen as well as taken for food or what was bought or traded for.
The first general conclusion was that game was not at all plentiful as most of us would suspect. As a matter of fact, the journal indicates how often the expedition had to buy domestic dogs to eat because of the lack of game. Remember, Lewis and Clark employed professional hunters for the purpose of harvesting game for food.
What was also discovered was that game populations rose and fell according to areas where the natives lived. There were what L&C called “buffer zones”, areas where the natives didn’t frequent usually because of warring with other tribes. Within these buffer zones is where generally speaking the game and wildlife were most abundant, once again pointing out that no areas appeared to be overrun with game, including elk.
Another study suggests that elk never really herded together the way it does now in such great numbers, especially during the winter.
Also noted was the sparsity of seeing or encountering wolves.
I’ve just begun reading about another study on ecosystems. History has taught us that in the West many years ago, game animals were quite far and few between, mostly because of the lack of supporting habitat.
Contrary to what some believe, the invasion of the Europeans into the west created more habitat suitable for animals such as deer, elk, moose, bison, etc. and of course along with that we see changes in the rest of the flora and fauna - not always good.
Archeological digs also reveal the lack of any sizable large game animals back several thousands of years.
Much of what gets passed on to people is fairy tale stuff or plain suppositions. Only until recently have further studies begun to look into the past in order to better understand the present.
I don’t think that Lewis and Clark made their journey as a means of plotting the demise of the Native Americans, at least not intentionally but we mustn’t also paint a picture that the Native Americans were some kind of great conservationists either.
The question has been asked here and has been asked often if man really has to manage its wildlife. I suppose the answer lies in whether you believe science and history and man having to be responsible stewards of the land and animals God entrusted us with or whether we choose to believe in fairy tales.
We can look back many thousands of years ago and develop an image of just what the habitat and the populations of certain animals looked like but the fact remains, we cannot return to those days because man has inhabited parts of this region and others. Good or bad it is fact. Instead of pointing a finger and always blaming man for all the bad things we do to animals, why not look at the truth to discover the great things we have done.
People want to blame man for the extinction of some species yet science cannot always blame man for that. But that doesn’t stop any good environmentalist from pointing a finger at us evil hunters.
Man and animals will live together. Nature is cruel and so are the realities of man being top predator.
No, man doesn’t have to eat venison to survive. There are thousands of things humans don’t have to do to survive but is that reason enough to make them stop? We don’t need cars, Coca-Cola, golf clubs, libraries, shopping malls and grocery stories. We also don’t need the U.S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights, but we don’t cast them aside because man is somehow perceived as evil. Heritage is vital in our society. Without it we lose our identity and with no identity we will fail to understand the need to persevere.
Man is not perfect but we do care about what we have been entrusted with, we just don’t always agree on the best ways to take care of those.
Our perceptions get skewed, emotions cloud reality but in the end we mostly do the right thing.
Eh… humans should let nature control population, not themselves.
Yes, the wolves population will rise when there’s a lot of food available. Once the Elk population starts to decrease, so do the wolves. And once the wolves decrease, the elk start back up again, and the cycle will go on.
With humans in the way, it’s messing the cycle. I do not see a problem with shooting a wolf on your property. But when you’re crazy enough to shoot them from planes just because of fear, it’s something else.
What is the name of that study you are reading?
That is very interesting as so often you hear hunters say “the wolf are eating “all” the deer, or moose, or caribou, or whatever. Gee, if wolves were really that good of hunters, there wouldn’t be any prey left.
Wolves are actually not that good at hunting as some hunters seem to think they are. That’s why they go for the “easy” prey first — small animals, rodents, small pets, sick or lame animals, livestock (there’s a steak dinner right there). I have read that they only get their target less than 20% of the time.
So when I hear these hand wringers “Oh my God, the wolves are eating everything up!!!” it just makes me almost laugh, as that is not the way it is. Yet that’s what Alaska is basing it’s “wildlife management” decisions on — flawed pseudo-science. Heck, some in Alaska admit it’s to bring in more hunting dollars.
Bea, it’s time to head north and see for yourself rather than
making things up.
It’s actually none of your business, as you don’t live here
and don’t understand why anyone would revert to such tatics
as shooting wolves from planes. Each time you post something
about Alaska, it’s incorrect. Why are doing that?
Whatever state you live in is not like the other ones is it?
Personally, I don’t think you are going to make any headway with the “B’s”, in the wolf dept., and this blog is way too long for anyone to read…you can see, they’re just posting and not even checking out the prior posts…so who’s learning anything from anyone? It’s starting to get repetitions…..(I’m out of this one!)
I realize now to live in the environment in which I have lived all my life and witnessed the things in wilderness I have witnessed was just my iresponsible stupid paranoid imagination. Elk must crawl under tree stumps and hide like hobbits do, the truth is the wolves are starving to death, OH MY GOD…..Thanks Bea, Im gonna start dumping ALPO in the forest for them right away.
Greg, I for one, really appreciate your first hand perspective, and I imagine a lot of others who read this do, too, but some people have pre-concieved ideas from reading the “untruth”, and refuse to listen to reason because of it…
They’re the kind of people who have no first hand experience, and are afraid to experience first hand, what someone else can…so they close their eyes and ears to everything that interferes with what they have already concluded…..
Someone like Bea would just “toy” with the concepts you have to live in and then fly back to her “safe space” to laugh at you for bothering to take her time…
Sometimes I wonder if there is any way to “bridge” the truth….when some people sure don’t want to hear it!
There you go Greg.That would be a change of diet for them. I hear Wolf like “Horse Meat”
Yep, I know it, All in good fun though fellers…I must say this is the first year the buggers actually walked into our camp, their gettin more brazen, I hate to pop a cap and kill one actually, but ya know boys, I raised them horses and mules from the ground up, their a good crew, we have done a lot of miles together, and they trust me, I them, It is my second crew as I plumb wore out my first, some are still back here and some are buried here, we will never stop going into the high alpine lakes, and I will defend my crew till the death, their my friends, they work darn hard for me. I put a couple of ammonia cups out at night, keeps them bears and wolves out, they wont walk past it, the other day we was having lunch at a stop on the way out, thats when the wolf walked right in, saw me stand up, he then booked it outta there, musta thought them horses an mules was alone I guess. Any how, Im done here with this blog, I’m picken my ole pops and taking him fishin tommorow in the Frank Church, same lake. Those Rainbows is callin us, and I expect to get us a deer via my recurve. see ya on the flip side of a better blog later on….we’ll be about a week ridin..I forgot that damn alpo was horse meat, guess I’ll just feed em rock salt. heh heh heh…
ar, It’s everyone’s business as those wolves “belong” to the American people, not just Alaskans.
Here is a post I found on another blog:
John Says:
September 4, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Cause of Prey Decline (in order from largest to smallest effect):
1. Weather
2. Lack of Vegetation
3. Disease
4. Humans/habitat loss due to development
5. Natural Predators
To point out specifically the fundamental flaw with the ‘damages to prey population’ statement. Herbivores are managed effectively by the resident population of carnivores like bears and wolves, predators are then controlled by prey populations - all is hunky-dory. They perform this role so well that humans (an introduced species) can only play little or no part in ‘management’ activities, thus it forms a perceived problem because ‘obviously’ humans need to be able to hunt mass quantities of prey in order for the ecosystem to be healthy. In order to solve this perceived problem, humans eliminate predators to manipulate prey populations regardless of the effects it has on the resident vegetation, landscapes, behaviour of prey and other smaller wildlife so that humans can then participate.
Anyway, I’m done — just continue to go about your ways and your thinking that the whole world is out to get you, even the wolves.
Sorry, I couldn’t get through all that! I hope it doesn’t
continue.
LMAO……
The world is not out to “get hunters” — and wolves are just one species in a big system of wildlife that God has designed to work together in harmony.
The only animal that has ever “wiped out populations of other animals” is man himself.
Have a good day.
I found this on line in a search. The news is wolves are needed for the environment to grow strong, not the opposite, kill em all off like some of you nutty hunters promote. This website says there are more elk and deer in Yellowstone because the wolf was put back into the environment.
http://tinyurl.com/6dmlt3
And Polar Bears fly.
There are no animals that have been wiped out by other animals except for those animals intentionally destroyed or exterminated by MAN.
Just to expose the twisted logic, one of the posters said that wolves are not endangered and never were as there are wolves everywhere — they’re not ‘everywhere.’
Yet some hunters complain that in certain areas there are not enough elk. Well in other areas, there are too many or “enough.”
So the logic only works one way for certain kinds of animals?
Actually Bea, you are as guilty as the rest when it comes to generalizations. Much of the reasons no consensus can be achieved is these discussions begins with a lack of continuity when it comes to definitions and as in any argument, we tend to pick and choose what we will to make our point while often times avoiding the truth or perhaps better put, avoiding the obvious.
One of the problems animal rights groups have, which adds to their lack of credibility with some, is that they too want things both ways. This is attempted through picking and choosing partial facts in attempts to support their arguments. Before you go getting all in a huff, it works both ways.
In reference to the statements you just made, you are right wolves are not everywhere, but by definition, again whose definition you choose to use will depend, wolves are not “extinct” nor have they ever been. Because wolves or any other species isn’t living where it might have once, does not qualify to make the animal “extinct”.
The reintroduction of wolves, as an example the norther Rockies, was an experiment. The “endangered” status was given it for that region to help in carrying out their experiment.
I’m not going to get into whether that act was legal or not. The problem many people have with giving the wolf “endangered” status via the ESA, is that, once again, by some doesn’t meet the requirements of the ESA to declare the wolf in danger of extinction. Much the same way as now the polar bear is.
Once the people have lost their rights to protect property and prosper because of the dictatorial powers of the ESA, once again arguably illegal, we have problems.
Hunters can use the same argument that animal rights use in manipulating the ESA to get what they want and it may come to that.
You are quite right in saying that in some places there are too many elk and deer and other not enough. It is irresponsible to leave that statement alone. We should examine the complete truth as to why.
If you were to follow the studies along with your own observations, you might discover that in regions where there are too few game animals, there are also many predators. There may just as well be too many people moving into an area, the list can go on.
On the same token, in areas where there are too many elk and deer, there is as likely the possibility that there are no predators or as we see all across the nation, we have areas where land is closed to hunting and populations have exploded.
We will soon discover in regions, elk and deer (the mule deer as a prime example) will become, using the same definitions and criteria the animal rights groups are using now to protect animals, regional threatened or endangered. Then what? Are we to turn our backs on regions threatened with the extinction, as defined by animal rights, of elk and deer because we still want to protect the wolf or do we continue to insist that nature can do it and man should simply go away.
You consistently blame man for everything. I have said before that we can blame all we want but it doesn’t change the fact that man lives here and are the dominant species. Just leaving wildlife management to take care of itself “naturally” is disingenuous and lacks any real credible science to support it.
I appreciate you think things out and explain without getting emotional. These issues can definitely get highly charged.
One of the major issues is this (at least the way I see it):
1. Who gave the federal government the right to kill tens of thousands of mammals (and other animals) on behalf of the livestock industry?
Wild animals do not belong to the livestock (or hunting) industry; they cannot just do away with them as they see fit in order to sanitize the countryside so they can have cattle run wherever they want them without fear of predation.
Currently, Wildlife Services goes to certain areas, some private, some public, and in ADVANCE of calving season, kills hundreds of coyotes — coyotes that “could” be a danger to a private business. Private — I don’t know about you, the feds haven’t helped me and my business with taxpayer dollars for “security” or “insurance.” Why do some ranchers feel so entitled to this type of “service?”
The animals have a right to live where they live, do they not?
When did it become the fed’s business to assist private businesses using tax dollars?
Predators have been wrongly persecuted for too long and still are being persecuted.
The feds do not have a right to destroy native wildlife like they are. That wildlife belongs to every American, not just the livestock or hunting industry.
We are constantly pushing animals out of their native habitat or persecuting them. Yes, other things can happen that are not due to “man,” but we can control what we do. We can’t control what nature is doing nor should we.
So are you saying it will eventually come to the feds bringing in more elk or deer in certain places, claiming they are endangered?
I’m not going to address every issue you bring up and I will say I wish this discussion had remained focused on Sarah Palin and Alaska’s wolves and not taken the direction it has.
We obviously disagree on several issues of which neither of us will change I’m afraid. You asked if animals have a right to live where they live. I say no. Animals do not have rights. As good stewards we manage and care for all animals as best we can. I’ll admit that wildlife management has its problems but no, animals do not have rights.
The shouldn’t have any business in any of this. It should be up to the states to manage their own wildlife as has been proven in the courts more than once, yet we continue to allow them to run over the state’s rights. There are many examples of this and the wolf issue is just one of them.
Getting back to the state’s rights. You must remember that several of the states have it in their constitutions, as does Alaska, that the state must manage its game animals for the purposes of providing its citizens hunting, trapping and fishing opportunities. This is something that is part of our heritage. Whether all people hunt and fish isn’t as important as whether or not the majority of its people understand the heritage and they understand the necessity of hunting as a viable management tool.
Much of this entire discussion boils down a difference of whether or not animals have “rights” and what the government does in the management practices of the wildlife.
Beyond that I think the rest is immaterial to be honest.
Obviously animals cannot have “rights” in the way we do. But I also think it’s wrong to constantly displace them without regards for them.
As far as Palin and Alaska wolves, there are three very different mindsets about that..
1. Those who think it is OK to kill animals in this way from airplanes in the belief it will somehow increase prey populations. If this were actually true it would mean that wildlife populations are a simple matter — you kill off this animal, you increase that animal. No, it is not that simple. There are so many different factors involved in where animals are habitating.
2. Those who think it is not acceptable to kill animals in this way, for this reason at all.
3. Those who agree with “managing predators” but not in this way.
There are probably far more “mindsets” than three but let’s address those briefly.
1. You confuse me with this statement. I guess you are assuming that Alaska’s wildlife scientists, being the most respected in most of the free world, are simpletons who take into consideration ONLY the act of killing a wolf to increase caribou and moose populations.
This is part of the argument that tells me animal rights groups want the argument both ways. They want to blame man for killing off the game animals via hunting, but then turn around and say that hunting will not reduce game populations.
It must be first understood that the methods of “aerial killing” of wolves is not a widespread and often used tactic but it is one that Alaska’s game experts want to have available to them. It is commanded of them in their constitution to manage the game.
2. I will not and cannot argue this point as it is a personal conviction about killing animals. But because someone believes killing animals is wrong doesn’t discard the realities of life and death. The majority of people in this country understand that sometimes taking an animal’s life spares many more and that proper management is far less cruel than the “natural” way.
3. Is a factual statement. Provided that these individuals are told the truth and are willing to listen to facts, and they still believe this tool for managing wolves is wrong, then so be it. I doubt there is anything anyone is going to do or say to change their mind.
Look, Bea! Much of the differences are based on personal beliefs about what should and shouldn’t be done with animals in caring for them. Some think “natural” is the way to go and others believe good sound science is best. Are there problems? You bet but as intelligent beings we hope to work toward improving on that which I think you’ll have to agree progress is made as better science becomes available.
She is definately a good baiter. Would be good to take on fishing trips…(oh, I forgot, she probably doesn’t fish, either?)
Must be a vegatatian as well…pity the poor little fishes, dear, dear….and watch out for eggs…they’re baby chicks, you know…
And watch where you step, the bugs are everywhere….(oh, you bomb the bugs? You know they are animals, too? Wonder just where you draw the line? Inner Slobovlia?
Let me make one more statement, without poking fun at you!
1. I can honestly say that I like, admire, and respect the wolf. It does you good to hear them and know the thrill of danger, and stay cautious where they live. I love them them same way I love all wildlife, and respect all life. They are the rattlesnakes, and alligators in the swamp, the cougars and bears in the mountains….they are there and they keep the danger in the woods, the thrill that keeps the adrenline and the blood flowing!
2. And I love the deer and elk and other animals that I take from life, and know that I respect them as well. To take life is not unholy. It is the process of living. It is a gift of God, not to be taken lightly, as are all of God’s gifts.
3. The wolf has a place in creation, and I do not think he will ever be denied that…he is cunning, and can live where we do not..he has survived the extermination we inflicted on him, and retired to Canada!
4. IF THE WOLF WAS KEPT IN CHECK, by hunting, trapping and by the necessary AERIAL shooting and poisons, which are a tool of the fish and game departments, they would be better off in the long run….killed just like we kill any other animal, with their long term survival as the reason for managing the size of their numbers. Otherwise, their numbers will be subject to starvation, which is a much “crueler” death than man’s intent, and disease, and intrusion into conflicts with man and his animals!
5. If he is not reduced in numbers, he is going to wear out his welcome, and reduce himself back to the days when we went about a systematic extermination of his entire tribe. He is already decimating the deer and elk populations that we as hunters hold as precious. Next, he will infringe on man and his creatures and man, himself! This is only a matter of time…and we need to reduce his numbers in some areas, now!
http://www.jyi.org/features/ft.php?id=441
Contrary to the beliefs of people who dismiss wolves as vicious killers, wolves do play vital roles in the ecosystem.
After wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming scientists found that aspen and cottonwood groves recovered – not because wolves were killing all the elk, but because elk stopped standing around grazing like domestic livestock.
Similarly, wolves, by preying on elk and moose populations, have helped willow and fir groves to recover in other parts of the US and Canada. Willows, aspens, and cottonwoods all grow in fragile stream areas, which are extremely sensitive to over-grazing.
Now that the elk are not eating the trees to the ground, beaver have become more common in Yellowstone. The beaver create more ponds, which provide habitat for stream side trees, which creates more habitats for nesting birds, and so on. This is what ecologists call a “trophic cascade”, where one organism can create cascading effects in a complex ecosystem.
Contrary to the fears of hunters, wolves did not seem to cause significant declines in elk or deer populations.
A recent study found another important trophic effect of wolves on the ecosystem. Like many predators, wolves do not eat their entire kill. Unlike grizzlies or cougers, though, wolves leave the remains of their kills behind. This makes wolf kills available for many species of scavengers, ranging from bald eagles to coyotes.
Without wolves, scavengers are largely dependent on harsh winters to provide food. Now that wolves live in Yellowstone again, wolf leftovers provide a steady food source throughout the winter for scavengers.
“When wolves are around, you no longer get this boom-bust cycle in carrion availability,”
“For a long time, people thought that human hunting was a surrogate for large carnivores,” said Douglas Smith, chief scientist of the Yellowstone Wolf Project. “This line of research clearly shows that that’s not true. Human hunting is not the same as having wolves in the ecosystem.”
http://www.nps.gov/yell/parknews/08010.htm
2007-08 WINTER COUNT OF NORTHERN YELLOWSTONE ELK
The State Elk Plan calls for a winter population objective of 3,000-5,000 elk north of Yellowstone with 2,000-3,000 of those animals wintering on or near the state-owned Dome Mountain Wildlife Management Area. In the last six years, an estimated total of 3,200-4,000 elk have wintered north of Yellowstone National Park with 2,100-3,000 elk wintering on or near the Dome Mountain Wildlife Management Area. By the end of this winter, biologists expect elk numbers north of the park to remain within the management objectives. In contrast, during the late 1990s, 5,300-8,600 elk wintered north of the park with 3,500-4,500 elk in the Dome Mountain area. Wintering such large numbers of elk could lead to long-term habitat decline and increase the likelihood of game damage problems on private land.
“From a winter elk management perspective we are currently meeting State Elk Plan population objectives,†Lemke said. “However, elk recruitment remains below desirable levels.†To help address elk recruitment issues, Montana Fish, Wildlife, and Parks dramatically reduced the antlerless elk harvest to an average of less than 75 cows and calves harvested each year during the last three years. “Hunting has basically been removed as a significant factor regulating northern Yellowstone elk numbers,†said Lemke. Late winter recruitment rates have made modest gains in the last two years to 19-24 calves per 100 cows compared to 12-14 calves per 100 cows the previous four years. Elk recruitment objectives for this population are 20-30 calves per 100 cows. This year’s recruitment rate will be determined during aerial surveys conducted in March. “It is unlikely that we will see any significant increase in elk numbers until there is a long-term improvement in recruitment rates,†Lemke added.
http://billingsgazette.net/articles/2008/02/27/news/wyoming/25-elk.txt
A study that began in 2003 looked at why so many calves weren’t making it to adulthood. In the summer study, bears were responsible for more than half the calves killed by predators. Wolves killed about 12 percent and coyotes got about 11 percent, the study said.
Calf weights recorded by Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks at the check station in Gardiner have been above average in recent years, according to FWP numbers. Most years from 1998 to 2006 were above average from records dating to 1984.
I hunt and I prefer healthy eco systems and fat elk…wolves are part of that and I am willing to share.
Thank you for posting! Wolves are, and will always be, my favorite wild animal. They are smart, mysterious, family oriented, social, the list goes on and on. To have hunters look at them with reality instead of fear mongering myths does my heart a world of good.
Unless, of course, you’re just saying this to make me go away. ha-ha
Where is the article that supports the theory that wolves are overpopulated?
Good question, Megan.
Scientists can also be biased and if they start out with a theory, they can find the evidence to support it, no matter which side. It often depends who they are working for (reporting to). It’s always best to use scientists who are 3rd parties but that doesn’t guarantee anything.
I have heard that there are more on the side of the wolves.
http://www.wolfsong.org
Her Deadly Wolf Program
With a disdain for science that alarms wildlife experts, Sarah Palin continues to promote Alaska’s policy to gun down wolves from planes
Mark Benjamin / Salon.com / September 8, 2008
http://www.salon.com/env/feature/2008/09/08/sarah_palin_wolves/?source=newsletter
Wildlife activists thought they had seen the worst in 2003 when Frank Murkowski, then the Republican governor of Alaska, signed a bill ramping up state programs to gun down wild wolves from airplanes, inviting average citizens to participate. Wolves, Murkowski believed, were clearly better than humans at killing elk and moose, and humans needed to even the playing field.
But that was before Sarah Palin took Murkowski’s job at the end of 2006. She went one step, or paw, further. Palin didn’t think Alaskans should be allowed to chase wolves from aircraft and shoot them — they should be encouraged to do so. Palin’s administration put a bounty on wolves’ heads, or to be more precise, on their mitts.
In early 2007, Palin’s administration approved an initiative to pay a $150 bounty to hunters who killed a wolf from an airplane in certain areas, hacked off the left foreleg, and brought in the appendage. Ruling that the Palin administration didn’t have the authority to offer payments, a state judge quickly put a halt to them but not to the shooting of wolves from aircraft.
Detractors consider the airborne shootings a savage business, conducted under the euphemism “predator control.” The airplanes appear in the winter, so the wolves show up like targets in a video game, sprinting across the white canvas below. Critics believe the practice violates the ethics of hunting, while supporters say the process is not hunting at all, but a deliberate cull.
Palin has argued that she is worried about Alaska’s hunters, locked in perennial competition with the canine carnivores for the state’s prodigious ungulate population. A hunter herself, Palin has battled critics of aerial wolf hunting with the support of the Alaska Outdoor Council, a powerhouse advocacy and lobbying organization for hunting, fishing and recreation groups. In addition to so-called urban hunters, who shoot moose mostly for fun, Alaska is home to a significant number of subsistence hunters, including some of the Native population. Subsistence hunters rely on an occasional moose to make ends meet. The wolves, Palin has said, are stealing food from their tables.
“Palin acts like she has never met an animal she didn’t want shot,” says Priscilla Feral, president of Friends of Animals, based in Connecticut.
The controversy over Palin’s promotion of predator control goes beyond animal rights activists recoiling at the thought of picking off wolves from airplanes. A raft of scientists has argued that Palin has provided little evidence that the current program of systematically killing wolves, estimated at a population of 7,000 to 11,000, will result in more moose for hunters. State estimates of moose populations have come under scrutiny. Some wildlife biologists say predator control advocates don’t even understand what wolves eat.
State officials stand by their scientific findings on predator control. “Several times over the past several years, our science has been challenged in court,” says Bruce Bartley, a spokesman for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. “In every instance it has prevailed.”
Yet it is not hard to find Alaskans who say Palin’s enthusiasm for predator control fits a broader narrative of how she edits science to suit her personal views. She endorses the teaching of creationism in public schools and has questioned whether humans are responsible for global warming.
In 2007, she approved $400,000 to educate the public about the ecological success of shooting wolves and bears from the air. Some of the money went to create a pamphlet distributed in local newspapers, three weeks before the public was to vote on an initiative that would have curtailed aerial killing of wolves by private citizens. “The timing of the state’s propaganda on wolf control was terrible,” wrote the Anchorage Daily News on its editorial page.
“Across the board, Sarah Palin puts on a masquerade, claiming she is using sound management and science,” says Nick Jans, an Alaskan writer who co-sponsored the initiative. “In reality she uses ideology and ignores science when it is in her way.” The initiative was defeated last month.
Gordon Haber is a wildlife scientist who has studied wolves in Alaska for 43 years. “On wildlife-related issues, whether it is polar bears or predator controls, she has shown no inclination to be objective,” he says of Palin. “I cannot find credible scientific data to support their arguments,” he adds about the state’s rational for gunning down wolves. “In most cases, there is evidence to the contrary.”
Last year, 172 scientists signed a letter to Palin, expressing concern about the lack of science behind the state’s wolf-killing operation. According to the scientists, state officials set population objectives for moose and caribou based on “unattainable, unsustainable historically high populations.” As a result, the “inadequately designed predator control programs” threatened the long-term health of both the ungulate and wolf populations. The scientists concluded with a plea to Palin to consider the conservation of wolves and bears “on an equal basis with the goal of producing more ungulates for hunters.”
Apparently Palin wasn’t fazed. Earlier this year she introduced state legislation that would further divorce the predator-control program from science. The legislation would transfer authority over the program from the state Department of Fish and Game to Alaska’s Board of Game, whose members are appointed by, well, Palin. Even some hunters were astounded by her power play.
The legislation would give Palin’s board “more leeway without any scientific input to do whatever the hell they basically wanted,” Mark Richards, co-chair of Alaska Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, wrote in an e-mail. The legislation is currently stalled in the Alaska state Senate.
Predator control in Alaska dates back to the 1920s and 1930s. Even then, wildlife biologists insisted that wolves were important to the area’s natural ecology and not responsible for inordinate deaths of sheep, caribou or moose. Yet the scientists fought a losing battle against ranchers, hunters and government officials, who backed the extermination of tens of thousands of wolves. Aerial hunting began in earnest in the 1940s and continued through the 1960s after Alaska had earned statehood.
But starting in 2003, Murkowski opened the airborne shooting to citizens with special permits and expanded predator-control programs to cover 60,000 square miles of state and federal land, the largest wolf-killing operation since Alaska became a state. The stated goal is to reduce wolf populations in some areas by 60 to 80 percent. Teams of pilots and gunners have killed at least 795 wolves since 2003. Conservationists counter that the total number of wolves trapped, shot from airplanes, chased down by snow machines, and killed legally and illegally in Alaska every year is more along the lines of 2,000.
Scientists insist that the Palin administration is systematically killing wolves with an inadequate understanding of the relationship between the carnivore and hoofed animals. The state responds that predators kill over 80 percent of the moose and caribou that die each year, while hunters and trappers kill less than 10 percent.
Haber says the state’s numbers are wildly inflated. His decades of wolf research have shown that wolves are, in fact, mostly scavengers. “Sixty to 70 percent of the moose they eat are scavenged, not killed,” he says. He adds that the state’s wolf population estimates, based on secondhand observations and extrapolations, are also high.
Palin offered the $150 bounty for wolf paws in 2007 after efforts to kill wolves from airplanes that season were, in her view, coming up short. State officials had hoped that 382 to 664 wolves would be killed during that predator-control season. State officials were disappointed when only 115 wolves were killed from the air.
Palin thought the $150 cash bounties would do the trick. Haber has another explanation for the dry spell. “I can tell you from my own research that the reason they didn’t get many wolves in certain years, particularly last winter, is because they have scraped those areas clean,” he says.
Last year, Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., introduced legislation designed to curtail predator-control programs, except as a last resort. “It’s time to ground Alaska’s illegal and inhumane air assault on wolves,” Miller said. Palin quickly fired off a curt letter in response, applauding the state’s programs as “widely recognized for their excellence and effectiveness.” She pointed out that her state has “managed its wildlife so that we still maintain abundant populations of all of our indigenous predators almost fifty years after statehood.”
Says Jans, co-sponsor of the losing initiative to outlaw aerial wolf hunting: “This is a reflection of a somebody who doesn’t have any use for science.”
Bea, why don’t you simply give your web source, instead of posting the entire article, that way I don’t have to scroll so far to avoid reading it?
And how much are you people paid to infiltrate hunting websites and post your agenda?
Bea, thought you might like to see this on, which came from this blog..It’s been awhile, so maybe you haven’t seen it. It’s “Hunters Unite to Save the Hunting Culture”, and it’s a MUST READ…
Every hunter out there must understand that every single hunting forum on the web has pretenders acting as hunters. How did I find out about this? During making my film “Undue Burden the Real Price of Living with Wolvesâ€, I interviewed Jim Beers, retired USFWS (U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service) biologist. Jim one year attended the annual Washington, D.C. animal rights conference. This tiny group of radicals get together and hold this meeting for a week. Normal attendance is less then 100 people. But what they teach these people is then taken back to their groups and spread across the land. One technique that is taught is to become members of hunting forums. Always stick up for predators, start straw man arguments to get the hunters fighting among themselves. Once you understand the tactic, they are very easy to spot. Straw man argument, such as I don’t know how you feel about scopes on muzzleloaders, but to me that is not primitive hunting. You see they are not taking a side they just get the fight started. The 4×4 associations have really done a great job standing up to the radicals that want to make huge parts of America into Wilderness. What is wrong with wilderness you ask? Ah, the devils are in the details. Roads are closed off. What is wrong with that? Ah, say you shoot an elk 10 miles back in, you can walk on perfectly good road but you can’t drive it to retrieve your elk. Therefore you have to pack the elk out. Wilderness area means it’s closed off to the public. It is real common to see these animal rights folks pretending to be hunters start the argument about 4 wheelers, snowmobiles and off-roading with the hunting community. Divide and Conquer works very well.
In a 1971 book called Rules for Radicals, Alinsky scolded the Sixties Left for scaring off potential converts in Middle America. True revolutionaries do not flaunt their radicalism, Alinsky taught. They cut their hair, put on suits and infiltrate the system from within.
HOW TO SPOT THE PRETENDERS; Post anything about wolves and you will see the ones saying this is all myths, disinformation, and fairy tales. They will demand links to prove everything. When you supply the links and the proof they will ignore it. They will then attack you and say you are afraid of the wolves. They will ignore the children being terrorized by wolves. They will ignore the ranchers forced out of business because of the wolves. They will ignore the human attacks by wolves. They will ignore the dog being killed right in front of children by wolves. You see the picture. Hunters must understand the true facts and what the real goal is. Until you understand your enemy’s battle plan, hunters will lose.
Just remember–there is no one more concered with protecting wildlife and its habitat than the American sportsman–without it, life is a day to day struggle with the absurdity of man.
First off I’m appalled at the resounding theme of remarks just because some of the posters are female. There has been an obvious lack of respect for Bea and despite our differences in some views (as I do hunt for food), she is not the person many of you have made her out to be. Look beyond your blinders to see that. It’s ok.
Throughout this entire thread, there seems to be an underlying tone that wolves attack man on a *regular* basis. This is just not true. Wolf attacks on humans are very, very rare.
Also in this thread it is repeatedly written that the wolves are decimating the elk herd. Since when were elk on the endangered species list?
NEVER.
Last I checked it was the wolf that is threatened.
Fear of the wolf eating you is not reason enough to shoot it from the air. Give me a break!
There is no denying the fact it is barbaric and promotes suffering. It is not always a clean shot, as someone else posted. Google it. There is plenty of footage of wolves that have been shot and are bleeding out but are running for their lives.
Just as I took a bad shot on my first elk, to witness the prolonged suffering, put everything into perspective. I use all parts of the meat and made sure my neighbors and some friends got some, too. And have made it a point to become a better shot. Though never perfect, I have gotten better the last 5 seasons.
I am a hunter, but I just do not believe in this aerial hunting. I support clean, fair hunting. Too many hunters that support aerial hunting also think it’s ok to bait or trap. They only see their side, which is landing a trophy at all costs. The Safari Club had a hand in reinstating this aerial hunting, as their goal is only to support an already thriving hunting economy for the sake of getting more trophies, and bringing even more hunters to the state.
Are the wolves taken from the state given to people in need? What is done with their bodies? Is the animal respected, or is it’s head then used as another trophy? There is no grey area here. Clearly the numbers are there- the wolf species is endangered.
Elk may be declining in your neck of the woods, but don’t blame big bad wolf. Blame overpopulation, strip malls, etc..
Don’t blame eco-Jane or good-will Bob because they disagree with aerial hunting. I suspect Palin has more to come to light in the next few days. We’ll see.
I really wanted to vote for McCain. I think now I will have to vote for the Constitution, as I still would like to maintain my rights to gun ownership.
Well, I have read through the gist of this, and I find myself sitting right on the line. I neither agree nor disagree with the aerial hunting of wolves, though I myself, am a ‘wolf hugger.’ I have taken the time to understand why she has suggested the aerial hunting of wolves, and understand. Of course, whether it’s cruel or not, wolves have to kill to survive, but when populations get out of whack, it may be time for human intervention. I am optimistic that the hunting of wolves will not be permanently allowed in Alaska, but used until the population is under control. On the other hand, I also feel it cruel to kill wolves (please don’t judge this particular comment, as I said, I agree with both) because they are typically very peaceful creatures. But, this is quite a debate, and, like abortion, is a controversial topic.
(PS For the record, I feel rather proud of my knowledge, however much that may be, on this topic, for I am merely 15 years of age.)
This is from the opposite point of view. In favor of wolves:
Jamohn, I strongly agree with what you say, but maintain my position on my line. Wolves are typically peaceful with humans, unless provoked. Just because we are terrified that they WILL hurt us, doesn’t give us the right to hurt them. I am also confident the thinning elk species with return to it’s original numbers. This particular situation reminds me of euthanization for old animals. The idea of is is to take an animal out of it’s pain, and end it humanely. Aerial hunting does not bring the end in a humane way ALL THE TIME. I apologize if anyone feels like I’m being flaky on my position. T
Jamohn, have you read any of the other posts on this page? Evidently not! Aerial shooting (not sportshunting), along with trapping and poisoning are not for any “trophy”! They are a dirty job that has to be done. Do you know what that means? Have you ever had to do something that had to be done that wasn’t what you wanted to do? The job of killing wolves is done by a man at the request of the Fish and Game Dept. It is like killing a gator or bear that has attacked people. It is an unpleasant job that reduces the overpopulation of wolves, in certain areas!
You are probably too young to remember, but back only in the early 1900’s, elk were endangered. Back then, they didn’t have a government approved “list” to put them on….So areas were set aside, and seasons closed, and also, wolves were shot and put on a bounty system, that encouraged people to shoot them for a price! That’s how the elk were brought back from going extinct. And the fact that the elk came back so well, that some people started thinking in the last few years, that they could RE-introduce wolves, to keep down the overpopulation of elk! Now, they could have allowed hunters to hunt in these areas, and they would have kept the elk numbers down, BUT, this was in the national parks, and they had closed them for hunting…so a lot of people went along with the RE-introduction of the wolf, thinking that this was just for the parks…..well, in time, we learned that they were bringing wolves back anywhere they could…and that is when the trouble began, again!
And when wolves are killed, the evidence is turned over to the fish and game departments and the rest is destroyed, or given away, depending on which government department is in charge.
Hope this little bit of history helps you to understand something which is not very clear unless you have seen it happen…and you got to be pretty old for that!
Listen and ask some of the “old” men, how things were, and maybe that will help you to understand how we can make the same mistakes all over again…and I hope you have good hunts, and can appreciate all of God’s bounty!
Jes,
First of all, I only WISH I could paid for posting my opinion! Gee, what a great way to earn a living. Unfortunately, I don’t. I have to actually work for a living although I do research and write about projects for an architectural design company.
Second, why is there always the tendency to label anyone who protects wolves (or other animals) as left wing crazies? Is it so hard to believe that some people don’t like to see animals brutalized like this? I can’t stand the idea of trapping either.
Third, I’m not a hunter. I’ve never hunted in my life.
Forth, I am not a member of PETA though I am a member of Defenders of Wildlife, Wildlife Guardians and a few others.
Fifth, I have voted both Republican and Democrat throughout my adult life and surprise — I’ve voted more often Republican than Democrat. I’ve also voted for third parties. This time, however, since I do care so deeply about animals, I am not voting for McCain-Palin, mainly because I can’t stand the arrogant know-it-all attitude of Palin. I like Pat Buchanan, George Will, and certain other Republicans. Others make me sick, as some Democrats make me sick too.
It’s easy to pigeonhole people — it is harder to realize that people are shades of gray — life isn’t black and white.
Izzy, don’t let some people ever make you think you’re “flakey” because you care about animals.
Jamohn, you are right on target in your views and thanks for your kind words. As much as I hate animals being killed, I understand the hunting of elk, deer, etc. for food. I do not and will not ever understand the need to kill other animals for “the fun of it” or “their fur.”
When did man’s “dominion” turn into selfish abuse? (aerial hunting, factory farming come to mind)
Sorry, have to go with the way I was raised. Mom always said you can’t be partially pregnant. either you are are you aren’t. It’s right or it’s wrong no shades of gray. Too much looking the other way. But then I guess it depends on what your definition of is is.
Are or aren’t what?
Human beings are complex; the natural world is complex, full of shades of gray. For example, you can love your spouse but not LIKE them particularly at the moment.
As far as hurting animals for one’s own aggrandization or pleasure, it is clearly wrong.
As far as intentionally hurting another human being, etc. it’s clearly wrong.
Of course, there are always black and white but many more shades of gray.
For example, Sarah Palin’s arrogant flaunting of her bear rug on the sofa in the picture; that is offensive.
Just because human beings can overpower animals, should they? What about the animal?
If wolf control from the air is such a biologically necessary, scientifically approved, dirty and dangerous job…why is Madame Sarah paying $150 per foreleg? Is she offering a bounty to the state biologists just to do the job they’re paid to do?
Or is there some lying going on, and some rich boys with plenty of spare money and time are up there using the “poor natives” - who I guess don’t have guns to kill the wolves with, even though they have guns to kill moose and caribou for “subsistence” - as an excuse for a little “sport”? And the incorruptible Miss Sarah is paying them $150 as compensation for the aviation fuel, which we all know is getting high?
If the government wants to pay for a can of pork and beans for somebody in Chicago, it’s welfare. But if we want to use government money to kill wolves so that somebody in Alaska can eat moose it’s…totally different story.
Good greif!
Charlie Brown?
Defenders of Wildlife pushed to get the bounties removed as it is against the law. They are no longer (or are not supposed to be) paying it out.
They actually think if they kill wolves, they will somehow magically get more moose and caribou for hunters. Nature isn’t that simple.
Bea is half right! It is against the law to offer bounties in the manner in which it was done and the court ruled as such.
The second statement is completely false and is supported by science and statistics.
It is not magic if you control the wolf population that you will get more Moose and Caribou or elk or deer.
It is common sense.
You know what is hiliarious is the hunting community is trying to save the wolf from itself along with other species of predators and their prey of hooved big game and even small game via wolf hunting. And these animal rights folks are saying let the wolves manage themselves. If we listen to arm chair city people anti-hunters, anti-rural living, we would see this decimation of hooved game end in total wipe outs and watch wolves starve to death or getting shot to death for coming into towns, and city’s looking to feed, on pets, stock, CHILDREN. Bottom line no wolf management no wolf. period. Idaho/Wyoming/Montana already are seeing ELK HERD COLLAPSE problems now, thats the truth. A certain county in New Mexico has been building cages for the children to stay in at the bus stops while waiting for the bus, and they are escorted to and from the bus stops. America has dealt with wolves for 14 years, the science is lies, ALL OF IT. Russian scienctists and rural people have documented for over 150 http://www.wolvesinrussia.com/ years the problems wolves cause humans and hooved game wild and domestic, as well as Canadian scientists and rural people documenting wolf problems over 100 years. I’m going with the experianced peoples proven documentation hands down. I’m going with what I see with my own two eyes where I live, in the Idaho Mountains, I’ve watched the decimation of other species in the forests in which I ride and walk thru EVERY DAY, and a cow elk to calf ratio of less than 30%, which is COLLAPSE of elk herds. PERIOD. What is cruel is forcing people who live in these area’s settled and approved for humans to live in over 170 years ago to watch this tragedy unfolding, while people who are know nothings living hundreds of miles away from the problem play arm chair animal protector when in fact they are hindering REAL ANIMAL protectors and passing around false pretty science because it makes them feel all fluffy and warm all over. Meanwhile the state of Colorado profits from out of state hunters hunting there, spending thousands of dollars in coffee shops, hotels, motels, cafe’s gas stations, helping your community’s survive, while you arm chair ours from your state with its own problems. Seems to me people should concern themselves with themselves and keep their nose outa places that are none of their Business. We need airial killing of wolves in Idaho right now, there are far more than “700″ wolves here, more like 3700, Elk and deer herds are in full COLLAPSE here. The decimation is REAL. It’s is disgusting what lies you people believe and pass around. The human mind which does no responsible research will believe more lies in its life time than truths, Bea is the example.
On the ground in wolf country eye-wittness to the slaughter and decimation of hooved wild game, Elk/Deer. and other species. On the ground wittness to hibernating bears being dug up from their dens and killed by wolfpacks. Wittness to sport killing by wolves, witness to wolves ignoring the weak and sick and going for the healthy prime animals in the herd. Witness to foxes being dug up from their dens and killed by wolves. Witness to cow elk having the fetus ripped from their body and being the only part eaton, while the cow elk is left to bleed out and die. wittness to the weak new born baby elk calves unable to defend themselves from wolf attacks, unable to even have the chance to grow up beyond the speckled bambi stage, thats the weak animal these wolves kill, thats what causes imbalance and herd collapse, no young to grow up, NO HERD, it don’t get no plainer than that. Wittness to the unbalanced elk herds in collapse and will never recover as this wolf program has gone to far to long UNMANAGED by hunters.
Wittness to the TRUTH, not some Beatrical fairy tales and wild imaginations.
Wittness to another 10 miles this day via horse back in wolf country. I don’t count sheep. I count elk, and those thriving herds of 1995 are nearly wiped out, FACT. Wiped out by wolves not human hunting as 75 plus years of successful hunting management proves out. PERIOD.
I gotta go tack up.
Why don’t you read the book Greg recommends, and find out for yourself? You’ll find the “Russian” wolf is one and the same! You’ll also find that there are historical records that affirm the fact of wolf packs attacking and killing people in large numbers….or are you afraid of the facts? “Little
Red Riding Hood” was based on the common knowledge of wolf attacks and killings.. back then we didn’t have city dwellers telling us what we knew was true…they had better things to do with their time!
If you think Canadians don’t get “bent out of shape” over wolves, then why don’t you contact the family of Kenton Carnegie and share your warm fuzzy feelings for wolves with them.
I think dog and cat populations should be thinned out but then again I don’t see anyone feeling the need to take that privilege away.
Have you researched the history of wolf attacks? Not just what your “wildlife defenders” want you to read, but the historical records? Asking that question, once again, just so you get it…
I’m not condemning the wolf, but he’s the better killer of all the hoffed animals, barring the wild dog, and that’s a tossup..And there are more dog attacks on livestock, simply because the dog has stayed around a lot longer and is more prevailent throughtout the country…And you don’t think dogs are caught and executed? Wake up gal!
Why should the wolf have more protection than Fido? Just because he’s wild? Wild dogs are wild, too! And even cross breeds are protected the way the law stands….why is that?
Tell you something for a fact: Hunters brought back the deer and elk from extinction, plain and simple. What have you and your “wildlife defenders” done? One thing: aggraviate hunters and try to eliminate hunting…Let’s see how you are going to bring back the elk and deer when the wolf has finished them off! With more wolves?
Stick to finding homes for the dogs and cats that have already overrun the country and are being gassed by the thousands every day! Doesn’t that effect your conscience, as well? Or are they just fodder for the PETA?
I can understand the need to kill predatory animals because they are a threat to wildlife, livestock, pets and people. But gunning down wolves from a plane because you want to up the numbers of the caribou for hunting season just seems wrong to me. But then again, I am not a hunter, nor am I an Alaskan resident whose state economy is, in part, dependent on hunting tourism. I am simply an animal lover, who got very upset when they saw the wolf video on CNN Anderson Cooper 360. I am also NOT an idiot, and decided to search out the facts about this issue rather than be told what to think by Anderson Cooper or Joy Behar [The View] on Larry King…Get the facts.
If you are open to considering the “facts” as presented by the wolf experts and wildlife biologists from the Alaska Fish and Game and other independent wolf/predator experts, you would discover that the reason for killing the wolves isn’t to up the numbers for hunting season. Or I should say it’s not the major reason only a result thereof.
If you research this you’ll find that once population numbers for animals such as caribou and moose reach a certain point, it’s kind of like a point of no return. When that happens the risk exists that the species is beyond sustainability.
If you have read the other information presented here, you would also learn that there are five regions where the state wants to be able to use this method to manage the predator populations. They are remote and not easily accessed making it difficult for hunters and trappers to go into these areas, especially when they can go to more easily accessible places.
If you talk to the people in Alaska, meaning the biologists, they don’t want to do this and don’t like doing it when they have to but feel that it is absolutely necessary.
We can lose sight either of the fact that Alaska’s constitution dictates that fish and game must manage its wildlife to provide these hunting, fishing and trapping opportunities, along with the treaties in place to provide game species management for subsistence hunting, fishing and trapping.
If you are like some who state that subsistence hunting, fishing and trapping isn’t necessary in Alaska, you need to go to Alaska and see for yourself.
just what this country needs ,A redneck lipstick wearing pitbull hockey mom that spouts religion who is anti-abortion but not anti-killing or anti-war .I would never trust anyone who supports aerial killing of wolves or other animals.
John Falcon,
Do you pay income taxes ? Did you support Clinton ? Clinton aerial bombed an aspirin manufacturing plant full of workers trying to make a living. Lyndon B. Johnson, another democrat Napalmed humans living in forests, thus trees, people, and animals burned to death. Both Bush Presidents blew up land and people via aerial assault. Seems these collectivists using different rhetoric while playing at being two different parties both want the same thing, less people on earth. I don’t want wolves in my yard, I don’t want people in foreign lands bombed in my name, If Obama is president Alaska will still aerial hunt wolves in area’s to difficult to hunt other-wise due to landscape, the hunts must happen to avoid Moose and Caribou collapse, If McCain is President this aerial hunting will still continue, So tell me, do you think Obama is anti-war ? If you do, you better go read his words again because he is just as blood thirsty as his opposition. Clinton awarded us these wolves, has anyone noticed Bush doing anything about it, I sure haven’t. I guess the white cowboy hat was for show.
Voters will vote for those they see as supporting their own world views.
The problem I see with Palin, besides her appaling wildlife stances, is that she has lived in a remote and pristines area for practically her entire life.
What does she know of or understand of big city problems? She’s been immune/detached from “most of America” her entire life.
If all you care about is gun rights, I guess she’d be ‘your man.’
But the world is a big place — we are constantly engaging with other foreign nations on big conflicing issues. And all she can offer is Cindy and John McCain’s ridiculous assertion “Well, you know, Alaska is the closet part of the United States to Russia.” Please — can we get more than that for credentials? That sounds like a dumb blonde comment.
Here is what someone else blogged about Palin:
….”this woman has spent her miniscual political life detatched from the U.S., isolated by distance and reality.
She has never spent time dealing with or even being near large homeless populations, gangs, multiple religous groups, influxing foreign populations, areas of land in her near by forests being decimated by encroachment and mining/drilling. She has the privilege of living in an area that has pristine wilderness abounding simply because of its remote and disconnected location. She not only lacks experience, but from this interview, it is easy to see she lacks knowledge, wisdom, worldliness, and common sense.
And Nixon, (R) signed the ESA into law Greg!
Clinton (and many other Dems) have not been particularly into wildlife issues but he didn’t go out of his way to squash them. (I didn’t vote for Clinton — I wish I would have)
Ken Salazar (D), one of our Senators from Colorado, consistently votes against animal protections — horse slaughter and other issues.
I have found that the policital party does not always determine which view the individual or candidate will take regarding these issues.
For example, Kennedy and Kerry were asked about the wild horse issue and they both blankly stared as if “what the hell would I know about that?) Issues are regional, but our reps at least owe it to be familiar with them!
But, you see, I at least can see lawmakers for who they are –I am not IMMEDIATELY biased because of their political party.
Sean Hannity is an example of someone who is simply unable to see any perspective but his own. I don’t fault him for being a construction worker before (as some have - which is silly!) but I think he is closed minded.
At least Bill O’Reilly will try to listen to and understand the other side.
All the rantings on this blog from certain individuals — not all — just prove that these individuals are unable to separarate the party from the issues and are ONLY willing to support Republicans.
For some reason or another, I don’t think you would trust me either…..and that means that I wouldn’t trust you! Put bluntly, could I give a flip?
Sorry Bea you don’t understand very much about up here. It’s not worth the trip, either as we can hardly think past lunch.
Once lunch is shot and killed, the next major obstical is
finding dinner and repacking the igloo to stop the wind from
coming in. If the seal standing in the corner will last long
enough to get us out of this area, we can stand around the
ice hole all day tomorrow. Keep them dogs outside or they’ll
get sick.
Hi, I came to this blog because of an incident that I recently experienced and wanted to see what others had to say about it.
I live in Boise, Idaho. I hunt near the FCRNRW (Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness) for early season bear. My hunting camp consists of about 10 guys who are hunting using various hunting methods. Some are bow hunters looking for deer or elk, a few of us are bear hunting with rifles, and one of us is crippled. Our crippled friend loves to hunt using his black powdered rifle. Since he ejected from his plane over the Gulf of Tonkin and shattered a leg, he’s walked with a pretty serious limp. To allow him the strength to pack his harvests out he’d bring a pack string of mules to do the work for him. His two mules are a frequent site at our camp and are looked after like close, useful, friends.
On the night we arrived and set up camp, all was quiet for the most part. A wolf could be heard faintly in the distance early in the vening as we sat around the fire telling stories of hunts past.
The next night the whole camp was awoken by the long, deep, moaning howl of a wolf not more then a couple hundred yards from camp. Sure, we’ve heard or seen wolves frequently the last couple of years, but this was different. Well, we all stood around in our sleeping clothes for a few minutes commenting on the closeness and volume of this particular wolf then we broke up and went back to our respective RV’s and tent trailers to get some rest.
The next morning when the sun finally had risen we could see evidence of a wolf having crossed through camp. We all had a good laugh and went about the days hunt. That evening the howling started just after sun down. Again, just the one wolf.
The following evening the howling started again, but this time there were many wolves, and in different directions. For those tree hugging, dirt worshipping, wolf loving neo-marxists who have never heard a real wolf howl, it’s nothing like the disneyesque call-of-the-wild crap you think you know. It’s a deep, penetrating sound that can carry for remarkable distances. It stirs in men primal feelings of dread and death. It’s a sound our ancestors knew and feared, for good reason.
Almost at sunrise a sharp growl and harsh barking woke everyone. We scrambles from our beds to discover a pack of five wolves had decended on the mule string. Once of the mules lay on its side, its throat having been ripped out and its entrails spread about the ground around him. The second mule was fighting for its life when one of the wolves got ahold of his throat and crushed it with a bite. The mules began to froth blood at the mouth and kicked and jump but to no avail. It was dead within the minute. As we sat there shocked, we realized that the wolves had vanished up a draw just as soon as the second mule was dead. The whole episode lasted maybe three minutes.
The moral of this story is that these re-introduced wolves know no fear of man, and therefore feel free to attack the property of man with little or no regard for the human. They are fearless perfect predators. If they were subjected to annual hunting they would regain their fear of humans and these incidents would be far fewer. Also, the “experts” back in New York, Boston, DC, San Francisco, and every other den of socialism re-introduced a species of wolf not even native to Idaho. When will we stop letting politicians in Washington DC and do-gooders in every cities urban heart tell us how to manage our Wilderness?
As for Gov. Palin, she is EXACTLY what America needs. She’s one of US. She is more like every other man and women in the country then anyone else on either ticket. Please don’t use lies to distort her record, because the Right doesn’t have to lie to point out what a joke Obamas record is. Please don’t use the Obama campaigns talking points to make your case, because we see statements that look exactly the same from all you left leaning neo-marxists. No original thought?
I’ll tell you the reason these lefties really hate Palin and it’s because she ended Barack “The Messiah” Obamas chance to fool the American people via the main stream media into getting elected.
As soon as Elk are on the endangered species list, JUST LIKE THE WOLF, then maybe Greg, your side of this argument will gain more traction.
Hmmm…Let’s revisit this again:
Elk and other hooved mammals are not on the Endangered Species List in NA.
Wolves are ON the Endangered Species List in NA.
It is the wolves, not the Elk, that need continual protection.
You can say elk herds are decimated all you want. The fact remains that Wolves have been needing protection for a long time. Nothing here has changed. The Elk herds across North America are doing just fine. If you are so concerned with the number of Elk, Moose, and Caribou, THEN MAYBE FOLKS LIKE YOU AND ME SHOULD STOP SHOOTING THEM. I guarantee you that humans are much more responsible for this ‘decrease’ as you say in the herd populations, than a few thousand wolves. There are hundreads of thousands of hunters. Do the math.
Have you ever considered that? No, because you are man merely thinking short-term that this next season’s hunt just might not prove as fruitful for you as in years’ past.
Give me a freaking break.
By the way, every time someone highlights on this thread that a child or human is going to get eaten by a wolf, the further your argument appears based on fear, and nothing else.
Not enough elk or moose? Then encourage you and a few of your friends to take a pass on this season’s hunt. You will make a better impact than by encouraging aerial hunting. Do your part, rather than putting blame on an animal whose populations have sharply diminished and have been endangered for many, many years.
Make your march alongside the greenpeace protester in Washington. “Save The Whales!” “Save The Elk!”
I can just see it now…lol
Fruitless.
ChukarCory, just like to thank you for posting that story of you and your friends…..not many and far too few have experienced your close contact! Wish some of these who post here, would have been with you….but I wouldn’t wish that on anybody!
They evidently don’t give a damn, about anyone but themselves and the wolf. And they don’t believe any bad thing they hear….to them the wolf is better than human…humans have bad actions, they kill wolves! Go figure! Stay healthy and cautious, and thanks!
Couldn’t help myself:
“Not enough elk or moose? Then encourage you and a few of your friends to take a pass on this season’s hunt.”
Ask any real wildlife expert and they will tell you that the impact of man on any animals population via hunting is tiny in comparison to natural depradation.
As a hunter in a wolf affected area, I can testify to the truth that wolves have severely diminished local elk, deer, and moose populations. If you ever get the chance, stop in the gas station in Cascade, Idaho and check out the photo of the wolves taking down a MASSIVE Bull Moose.
Also, the wolf isn’t an endangered animal. It was placed on that list for political reasons, nothing more, nothing less. There is an abundance of wolves in Canada and Alaska, probably too many if the state of Alaska has had to use aircraft to manage the population.
Jes,
Thanks for the kind comment. Where I was a fence sitter on the issue of wolves being reintroduced before, I’ve had my eyes opened in a way only nature can do.
Overlay Alaska onto a map of the U.S. and consider trying to
hunt or manage it’s wildlife. Pretend you can hunt from
New Jersey to Arizona and from Texas to Michigan. Did you get
lost? Probably not. A lot of roads to guide you from coast
to coast. Check out the highways in this state. Where ever
you go, you have to turn around and come back, except for
leaving the state.
The previous postings have no merit here, in this state, as they make no sense. They have not much to do with reality;
sorry to say that but it needs be said.
Hop on a ski-doo and point it in any direction and ride. You
will have stopped within 25 miles to make sure you know how
to get back. The woods tonight will be as cold and lonely as
they were 200 years ago. Don’t get lost.
I’ve failed to get you to realize the vastness, alone, of
this great state and the amount of wildernes here….un-
touched. Yet somehow you must wonder what it might be like.
It has to be experienced for yourself, otherwise, you do not
understand it in it’s entirety.
When the roads are no more and the city lights have gone out,
know your business here. To do otherwise will kill you.
Did you know it is against the law to drive by someone who has pulled off the road for repairs? Yes, we look after each other. It’s the same in town sitting at the traffic lights.
Your gesture to the motorist beside you is one of gratefulness, Knowing he’s your friend.
Native peoples are readily seen walking to and fro as they
prefer not to drive or can’t afford it. Some have fallen into the bottle, as they say. No one is perfect.
Read all you like about it. After being here, you’ll try to
write it, too.
Do the Math? Sorry but you do the math! Before you embarrass yourself, you should get facts on what is the mortality of wild animals such as elk and moose. You are wrong. Man’s removal of a tiny number of animals during the hunt is far down the list.
The second issue is your statement about wolves being diminishing and threatened. This is also untrue. There are more wolves today than at any other time in modern history. I say modern because there is no way of knowing what they once were.
Many people get there information about whether deer, elk and moose as examples are threatened from the general information and what is readily distributed by media resources. We cannot argue the fact that general speaking of OVERALL populations of elk, the numbers tell us they are ok. As a scientist and as someone sincere in knowing the truth, you have to examine the specific regions where both wolf and elk exist. In these areas the wolves, remaining unmanaged are having serious affects on elk. Nothing you hear from the “experts” will tell you anything different than what is the “official” word, until substantiated studies provide contrary facts.
In defense of Greg, much of his “evidence” is anecdotal much of what we hear from many in the outdoors in wolf country.
I stopped elk hunting after the 2004 season, due to visible herd imbalance. Like I told my friends we can rationalize the decimation and unbalanced herds and make a choice, the wolf an animal can not do so. Historically the wolf has eaton itself out of game and moved on or died of starvation. I fish and hunt birds. My weapons were bow, and muzzle loader. The decimation is real. The horror stories are real. It’s just wolves doing what wolves do. KILL EVERY THING, eat some of it.
Wyoming State biologists themselves reported 4 major elk herds of their state are in collapse and even removing the predators at this point would not bring a turn around for those elk herds.
Idaho biologists choose to lie, or are under gag orders. IFG numbers are cooked, false. Take numbers are false. Herd counts by biologists are false, they ten elk and write down thirty. Thats a lie in my book. They admit that is how they count elk. Idaho Fish and Game relys on federal funds, Idaho/Wyoming/Montana competes for federal funds via the most tag sales quota.
Our elk herds are not doing fine.
Idaho had wolves my entire life. Wolves lived in the Bear valley country near Cape Horn, Red Mountain, Lost Lake, Valley Creek, Vanity Summit, Vanity lakes, I watched them from 1972 till 1996. They were true Native Greys, smaller in size than this hybrid killer we have now. Many other Idahoans saw these wolves and photographed them.
The government lied about wolves being endangered, why should that surprise any one, the government lies about every thing else, why be truthful about this program. Fellow Idahoans with eyes wide open have asked fish and game several times, “Where are the elk” especially in winter when the winter ranges are empty.
To the poster who lost mules, I sleep on the ground 20 yards from my mules, apparently my presence at this time stops the wolves from coming in and attacking my string. I hope this luck continues as next week Im going into the Frank Church 15 miles deep and camping again. I have heard of horses and mules being killed in that Wilderness.
The bottom line is wild life agencies do not care about hunters or hunting beyond revenue from tag and license sales. They will try to keep moose/caribou/elk/deer herds from being decimated or wiped out any way they can, WHY..because when those wipeouts happen they are going to have to answer for them. The wolves were well enough left alone prior to this “re-introduction” program.
Blaming hunters for what scientists have done or are doing is rediculous. Saying hunters are paranoid when they mention a human may be killed by wolves is also rediculous. Did we forget Kenton in 2005? The children who were bitten in Michigan at the park near the lake? Come on, get real.
Sarah Palin has been approved by AIPAC, Sarah Palin is just another politician seeking carreer advancement. As far as politicians go she is what she is. The Collective agenda will advance and the Individualism of our founders intents and purposes will finally fail. Both parties are taking us to the same place. Global Collectivism, or Marxism, or Communism, New World Order.
Don’t think so ? Then read your Constitution front to back, your Bill Of Rights…Then read the book DAS KAPITAL…Read the Communist Manifesto and it’s ten planks…Read the Book MEIN KAMPF. Then recognize both collective parties for what they are……It’s a fools game.
Give me a freaking break “left leaning Marxists, tree hugging… whatever….” If all you do is label people, you are refusing to actually engage in discussion.
Yes, I absolutely like a clean environment with wolves — as it should be — as it’s meant to be - as it was — and how God designed it.
ANY wild animal can and will attack if it feels threatened — how many times do I need to repeat that? ANY WILD ANIMAL!
Does that make that particular animal “bad?”
Wild animals are not “bad” or “good.” In fact, the Colorado Dept. of Wildlife is very much against viewing animals in this way (although they need to put their money where their mouth is and bring back wolves to Rocky Mountain National Park).
And yes, wolves WERE and STILL ARE endangered in many parts of the U.S. The U.S., in case you are unaware, is not a part of Canada, so what is the use in talking of Canadian wolves?
No, they were never endangered in Alaska, but if some hateful and bitter people had their way and could physically and financially do it, I’m sure they would try to kill all of them. I really think those who hate wolves with a vengeance have OTHER AXES TO GRIND and it has nothing to do with wolves and everything else to do with other politics.
Don’t take your anger out on wolves because they are better hunters than you.
And why is it important “how” they kill their prey? If you don’t like that part, COMPLAIN TO GOD!
Your comments are beyond being ridiculous.
okay, aerial hunting is mean. if you are going to kill a animal kill it fast, and don’t overkill or else nothing will be left to kill. the world is a complete circle, which keeps itself in balance. all these people are talking about killing wolves because they see them killing prey and other predators sometimes. look at YOURSELF.
i see people go online or on tv or both and talk about changing their vote from democrat to republican, because palin is like hillary to them. they are diffrent. first,i think those people are being paid by john mc.cain’s people to say that to try to sway these sheep like people, who go do what everyone else is. bringing a idiot onto your side wasn’t smart mc.cain. look, we need to hunt too, to keep things in balance, just like wolves keep moose in balance, why else are we a part of Earth’s ecosystem. just dont over kill and don’t kill so brutally. i know animals may kill brutally, but they are not even close to as intelligent as us. wolves dont hold guns or quivers. wolves are just a clever and resourceful predator, who if it werent for we wouldn’t have man’s best friend. where else do you think dogs got so bright from.
animals dont have the brain capacity to know what brutality is, what evil is, or any of that, the only one that does is the human animal.so dont abuse ANY magnificent creature, hell, what if a extremely smart creature from the bottom of the ocean came up and obliterated us like that. the only diffrence is that the humans wouldnt be pulling the trigger.
i am so sick of people talking of eradicating all bears, cougars, coyotes, and wolves because of a encounter . first, learn some tips of what to do in a encounter in case of one so your ready and always come armed. and i bet if a cow or a bull could think like us they’d think the same way people like palin do about wolves. and as for the guy who said he saw a wolf kill a couple of moose or something in like 30 seconds, notice how quick that was as compared to how long it takes to kill a wolf from a helicopter.
Bravo Rob —
It’s so simple — no killing animals from airplanes.
I’m also very much against steel traps that grab the animal by a limb and the steel jaws rip into the skin and the animal could lanquish there literally in agony for days. Those should be illegal. Anything torturous/barbaric should be illegal! God, it’s just freaking common sense!
Ghandi said “The progress of a society can be measured by how it treats its animals.”
This nation needs ethical ethnic cleansing pronto.
What the heck does that mean?
Isn’t it funny that Palin according to some does not have enough experience to be a vice president because she has lived her life in remote areas and cannot possibly know what life is like in the big city, but people that’s lived their entire life in the big city can with their vast wisdom can somehow see the need to tell us in the woods of Idaho what to do about the wolves. I’ve been archery hunting for the last two weeks and am really getting tired of finding partially eaten elk and deer. Some all that’s eaten is th ass and the nose. At least we eat all the meat we harvest, what a waste it is to have these dogs roaming around the woods of Idaho. I Really wish they would of taken a vote or at least ask he sportsmen if we even wanted them brought in. Then again what do we know we don’t even live in the big city, sure glad they’re looking out for us.
I can’t get over what the mental block is with the aerial
shooting. You don’t remember? Don’t want to, or you want to
continue with repeating yourself? You still don’t care to
understand why. Or perhaps, as has been stated, you do not
know what is involved with the care of our people. Your
assumptions only cause strife to those affected. I’m sure
you didn’t mean to.
Simply put, it is quite vast here with many remote villages
where transportation is limited to snow machine or sled dogs.
You can not drive there in your car.
In the event of wolves encroaching, the airplane serves well
to locate and view their movements. After all, from a plane,
one can see some 12 million acres of more appropriate habitat
for these beautiful creatures to live in but they sometimes
won’t go away. They could move out away from here more, huh?
It’s not like you see in the news at all, sad to say. This is different from what most are used to. You have given me
the impression all we do is slaughter wolves from planes.
That’s not nice and it’s not true. Please. I’m sure you
have seen all kinds of films on the subject but lets be
sensable here. If it means shooting some wolves to keep the
rest away from your home, that works. The wolves run off.
We could set the plane on the ground and chase them off. Or
try it on sno-machine. “B.J., you ready?” Four wheelers run
well on snow and ice but just don’t work well enough, hence,
the plane.
If your interest is in stoping aerial, I’ll call it, manage-
ment, good luck unless you have a solution of your own. The
management aspect of it is a necessity, that’s all. We use
a plane where cars or trucks can’t go. In some places, what
is out behind the house goes as far as you can see. There
must be room for all of us, don’t you think? All we want is to get on and get along.
Who knows, this may get run-over like the rest of ‘em.
Big city armchair backwoods women, ha ha. No knowledge of political science ! No knowledge of habitat, No knowledge of the reality of wolves and the science involved in their management ! No reasoning capacity ! Ignores factual evidence offered for her review in our attempts to enlighten her ! Obviously those of us on the ground living with wolves and what wolves really do, sport kill, rip fetus’s from elk and deer wombs, run past weak animals and kill the biggest healthy bulls in the herds, kill off all the new born calves and fawns, harass campers and kill their horses mules and dogs, in fact it is not safe to take your dog for a walk here any more, its violating wolfies forest and they will kill it right in front of you. The answer is go live in some city and be wiser like them, all herded into the Big City corral like dumb sheople. NOT ME.
The only reason I reply in this thread still is so the retard does not have the last word. Http://www.green-agenda.com/
http://www.wolvesinrussia.com
http://www.wolfcrossing.org/
http://www.members.foothills.net/ricefile/STOV.htm
http://www.robodoon.com/global_un_agenda_21.htm
http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/pdf/futurecalling1.pdf
http://green-agenda.com/agenda21.htm
http://green-agenda.com/sustainabledevelopment.html
http://www.seekgod.ca/rockefeller.htm
http://www.newswithviews.com/Becraft/larry.htm
Big city armchair backwoods women know it all, you better read and understand what you are and what you support. Thanks for continueing to harrass us hunters, Im so pissed off now Im going to do something I normally never do VOTE, thats right Im going to VOTE, YES IM gonna VOTE, for John Boy McCain and Sarah Palin because I support what Alaskan wild life biologists are doing in ALASKA 100%. YOU ACOMPLISHED getting me out to VOTE.
I support killing wolves because there are to many of them, unless we can find a way to ship them to your yards where you can keep them safer. Thousands of rural Americans are not going to willingly move away from wolf “country” into some fog smog people choked shit hole to please your theory. NOT HAPPENING, NOT EVER.
EDUCATE YO SELF…..
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Start a campaign to live catch the wolves and use those wolves to re-populate the wolf in the state of Colorado and any where else in the U.S. where wolves aren’t re-populated at the moment…its only the right thing to do, and why should cost be a problem we are up to $350,000 per wolfie now, a catch and ship to then release program should please several nuts who have chimed in on this blog and all their friends…I like to share every thing, Im not selfish at all, and I want you folks to be able to enjoy those wolves too. That is certainly better than aerial killing in my opinion. NUFF said.
Good, let me know how I can help you get them. The sooner the better. One last thought, did you ever hear the saying be careful what you wish for ? Just wondering. Your vast ignorance of reality is showing along with your vast lack of political knowledge..I stand by the catch and release theory of wolves, don’t you think its a good idea, I sure do. You could call it “Adopt a wolf from those government hunter meanies.” Program.
I think humans were not intended to live piled up on top of one another in city’s, its not natural. Yes I think city’s are shit holes. I would rather die than live in one or by one. Think of all the lost Grizzly and Wolfie Habitat where you live, your just as guilty as the rest of us you keep pointing at.
The difference in views here is when we learn we did or believed something is wrong or false we correct that. Taking pictures is a lovely concept, I do this myself. I like predators to, BUT, to many is a problem for other animals as Ive shown. I live it full time, we don’t go see it on the week end. Funny thing is Ive always had to get out into the brush with them, find them, and see them. Where do you drive to see them on the week end a ZOO ? Predators and humans can not live together Bea, you have children, you watch those little people growing every day, There are places here I played as a child, well you could not let those kids do that here today, unless your totally stupid. You approve these predators being in our yards, yet you do not have them in yours…..your not being fair.
Ive been in several, Hong Kong, Tokyo, London, Denver, Seattle, L.A. , Phoenix, St. Louis, San Francisco, Mexico City, Atlanta, Kansas City, New Orleans, Dallas, Jacksonville Florida, Houston, Vancouver, Calgary, thats the short list. All shit holes.
There is not to much population for every one to have their own 100 acres, there are to many elites hoarding millions of acres to themselves, stop and think, 6.5 maybe 7 billion on earth, all those people could have over one acre each in Arkansas or Oklahoma. Look at all the open land mass all over this earth. your wrong again.
Yard as in standing 20′ from the front porch glaring at me, running thru my yard and I can see them from my desk while peering out the window. While I travel thru millions of acres of national forest my camp is my yard for that night and or days I camped there, I guess wolfie is so bored with his ten million acres he needs to come over to my 30 yards by 30 yards campsite and hassle us, while we are minding our own business. Most of my family and friends refuse to go camping with me due to how bad it is here. Screw it, Im going till they kill me, no dog is going to rule my life.
You attempted to use over population not land ownership as an issue. I believe in competitive capitalism which is the real American way. Our problem is Monopoly capitalism. The first is good for every one, the second is good for only the Monopolists, Incindentally, monopoly capitalism is the foundation for collectivism, in other words communism. CFR member and Knight of Malta Ted Turner is an elitist monopolist collectivist. He in fact is a communist. I’ve just given you a short version of what is wrong with our country and government, keep in mind, ALL monopoly capitalists forge partnerships with government as the way in which they maintain their monopolies. It’s a huge topic, lets not get into it here, if you want to learn the truth I will prove it to you, other wise forget it.
I gotta go get in the saddle.
Remember, Wayne Pacelle, the CEO of HSUS has said, “If we could shut down all sport hunting in a moment, we would.” He has even admitted, “We are going to use the ballot box and the democratic process to stop all hunting in the United States… We will take it species by species until all hunting is stopped…”
Dang, Bea got the ditch! Serves her right, but what happened!!! Greg is going to vote! Dang, maybe I ought to ask Bea for a date or “something”! Hallelujah! Praise God! Here Bea, here Bea….come on girl..Greg gets to vote! WoW!
jes wtf did that mean? and farber needs to quit talking to himself with like 6 responses in a row.
One Badass PUT
Got to give these people some credit. I’m sure they believe in what they are promoting.
Save Wolves from Senseless Slaughter!
Give yourself or that special someone in your life an adorable gift — and help save America’s wolves when you adopt a wolf!
Once virtually eliminated from the lower 48 United States, wolves have made an incredible comeback since Defenders and others successfully fought for their re-introduction into Yellowstone National Park in 1995.
But the killing of wolves has already begun in the Greater Yellowstone area since they were stripped of federal protections in March. At least 37 wolves have been killed so far, and the count is rising almost daily. A famous wolf, known as “Limpy,” who was a beloved member of Yellowstone’s Druid Peak Pack, was one of the first Northern Rockies wolves to be shot dead.
Defenders of Wildlife has already filed two legal challenges including Defenders of Wildlife vs. Hall, but we have a long fight ahead.
Help us stop this senseless slaughter of wolves with your wolf adoption today.
Adopt a Wolf Family and you’ll receive a big 17″, super-cuddly plush wolf toy, a personalized Certificate of Adoption with an attractive 5″x7″ wolf photo and a fact sheet full of great information about these magnificent animals. You can also choose to receive a Kids Wildlife Activities book for that special young person in your life.
In Alaska, a state-sanctioned slaughter from the skies continues as aerial gunners shoot wolves from aircraft, or chase them to exhaustion, land and shoot wolves at point-blank range.
In the Southwest, fewer than 60 wolves struggle to maintain a foothold in the wild as anti-wolf forces rally to eliminate their very existence.
But by Adopting a Wolf Family, you’ll support our work to save these magnificent animals. We’re urging Congress to pass vital legislation to put an end to Alaska’s aerial gunning program — and prevent programs like it from spreading to states like Idaho and Wyoming.
We’re fighting to keep critical federal protections in place for gray wolves in the Greater Yellowstone and Northern Rockies region so that wolves will be protected for future generations. We’re on the ground in Arizona and New Mexico, countering anti-wolf misinformation to ensure that wolves have a future in the Southwest.
But our work doesn’t stop there. We continue to work with ranchers to compensate them for livestock losses attributed to wolves and to find ways to prevent conflicts between wolves and livestock before they occur.
Whether you Adopt a Wolf Family, Adopt a Wolf, Adopt a Wolf Pack or Adopt a Wolf Mom & Pup, you can take pride in knowing you’re doing your part to protect America’s majestic wolves for future generations to cherish.
I’m interested in more information on compensation to ranchers, for stock loses from your adopted pledges kill, kill, kill, and eat some lifestyles
you can also choose to receive a Kids Wildlife Activities book for that special young person in your life.
Get em while there young.
That’s why TODAY’S HUNTER & TRAPPER are my children’s activities book. That special young person in my life can ride hard and shoot straight. Are in touch with their natural surroundings, and consider any predator kept at a distance, and their movements kept track of.
George what is this? I was cracking up, laughing on the floor, until I realized that this was more than a joke! What on earth is this? An excerpt from the “Defenders” site? Adopt a wolf, they mean a toy wolf doll…the real thing would scare the dogcrap out of them! Put one in their living room, uh huh…
I was still getting a double charge of laughter, when I read “point blank range”….hahahahhah (as if that was bad???) I always thought that close in shooting was the best way to make sure where you put the bullet, and make a quick kill, without suffering….but they don’t know squat about anything, do they?
I for one, am glad that if they make war on hunters, they picked on the ones with the guns…..
Had a neighbor who “adopted” a wolf. He grew to huge proportions. I didn’t know just how large they could get…I mean maybe close to 200 lbs…He used to get loose now and then and I’d see him and it was like seeing a buffalo in the deer woods….a very impressive animal!
Well, to make a long story short, this wolf would bring down a calf or one of the other neighbors “tiny horses” (the dwarfs)…One nite after hearing the horse screaming in his daath throes, he woke up and saw some other neighbors dogs standing over his dead horse. Mistaking this dog for the one responsible for killing the little horse, he grabbed his .22 rifle and went after them….The dog ran accross the road to the front door of his neighbors where he shot it right between the eyes….just as his neighbot was opening the door to let her dog inside! Whoooo. It took a lot of diplomatic talking to keep him out of jail after that! And the dog lived! What a comedy of errors….all because of one wolf’s nightly excursions….and killings. They are beautiful animals though! But even so, he brings his distruction down on himself in a world where he conflicts with men….
You know, that is the whole story…Where man does not live, the wolf is supreme…And most men live in cities, and the wolf does not affect them. Therefore they have no conflict with him….and couldn’t care less how that effects those who live with him!
rob newsom, you figure it out! Greg wasn’t talking to himself!
When you do, maybe you can understand me!
Yep, here’s the Adopt A page:
https://secure.defenders.org/site/SPageServer?pagename=wildadopt_graywolf&s_src=WJY08WDADOPT&s_subsrc=WJY08WDADOPT_factsheet&JServSessionIdr012=cus2soy402.app25a
ROFLMAO…I didnt do that all in a row, Bea was in between them remarks and she musta got booted, heh heh heh…..God if she comes back here Im gonna die…..
_____
No, to my knowledge Bea didn’t get banned. HOWEVER, as happens and I noticed it the other day, she may have been posting from a different location. One that has been banned because of spam. I think I have located another IP that she has used in the past. If I can confirm this, any comments she made should be restored.
People don’t understand that some of this software is getting pretty sophisticated and when people use the same info from a different IP address, they may be picked up as spam and automatically axed.
I have not banned anyone!
damn this thing just grows and grows i bet in 2 hours we’ll b at 200 responses. farber’s been in since like 2 arguing with bea. id like to get more knowledge on adopting a wolf do u actually take a live wolf home? and is george talking about wolves period or just grey wolves. red wolves live in the southeastern U.S., or they used to. u know palin isnt just killing wolves she was killing bears too. and i have a question for alaskans, are there cougars up there? or is that a little too far north for their range because i know cougars can b in the southern most tip of argentina, in south america.
http://www.rmchronicle.com/index.php?id=733&option=com_content&task=view
Yes, I was posting from 2 different computers — it kept saying “your comment is a duplicate” or something like that.
Anyway, I know you all missed me — I found this article on Rocky Mountain National Park — I still can’t find more recent articles…
In this case, it only makes sense to bring in wolves (from Alaska) since hunting is not allowed here and hasn’t been since the park’s inception.
11. Socioeconomic, ecological and political factors must be considered and resolved prior to reintroduction of the wolf into biologically suitable areas from which it has been extirpated. Natural recovery, however, should be given priority according to the IUCN Reintroduction Guidelines.
Hey, if the wolf can run the gauntlet and find this safe haven good for him.
I have glassed many an old Buck standing just inside the “National Park Boundary” I have also harvested the same when they wandered off the reserve!
I was brought up to respect animals — all animals. Shooting them from airplanes is not respecting of God’s wildlife. And it’s hardly a “few” wolves — 800 since Alaska’s plan began. And now I heard they’re shooting them in Montana too. Makes me sick to my stomach — “good ole’ boys network….” (in country accent: “Hey, we gotta get rid of them there wolves… they’s eating up all our elk (moose, whatever).
Please!
I respect ALL LIFE as well, Bea, but there are times when you have to take life is order to sustain life! This is exactly what happens in the wild….and it’s not a pretty picture for you, I can understand that…you have lived a “sheltered” life, compared to the country boys who grow up with good values and an awareness of how “cruel” life is! And we watch animals die from starvation, and disease and other animals…(not a “pretty” picture!
But, until you grow up and accept the realities of life and can understand that dying from a gunshot is no more cruel than from old age, or disease, than you will have no more understanding than the rest of the city dwellers, who live with a Disney, Mickey Mouse concept of what life is in the wild…Grow up, Bea! Go out and get a real taste of life in the wild……”BE” THERE!
I wouldn’t worry about that E-Mail hacker. He or She has had their moment of glory. The Feds will bust them in a few days. I use free E-Mail servers myself. I could use my business account but like Mrs. Palin I would rather us my personal E-Mail (which is less secure) Than use my Tax Payer account for personal use. Not like Charlie and his free parking.
and oh, did I mention Sarah Palin Loves to Shoot!
http://www.jeffhead.com/palin/
Fortunately, although Obama has succeeded in fooling some of the people all of the time, there appears to have been an avalanche of defectors from the moderate ranks of his supporters. For example, in the last two weeks, his eight-point lead over McCain among white female voters (those who elected Bill Clinton—twice) is now a 12-point lead for McCain/Palin, which explains why most of Obama’s attacks have been aimed at Gov. Palin.
Indeed, conventional wisdom suggests that Obama’s latest reversal of fortune is the result of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin joining the McCain presidential ticket. But there is more going on here than just the Palin bounce.
It seems that McCain’s character-rich speech at the convention enlightened a lot of folks who were, hitherto, unenlightened. That enlightenment has finally prompted moderates and independents to take a critical look at Obama’s character. And many, as evidenced by increasing support for McCain, are repulsed by what they see.
As those who self-identify as “Democrats†learn more about their party’s anointed candidate for the most powerful office in the world, perhaps they will consider a line from the Wizard of Oz—a quote which has metaphorical applications far beyond the movie.
“I am the great and powerful Oz!†thunders the Wizard to Dorothy and her friends. “Do you presume to criticize the great and powerful Oz? You ungrateful creatures!â€
Alas, even as Dorothy’s tiny dog Toto tugs on the curtain to reveal a petty little man behind the thundering voice, the Wizard attempts to continue the ruse, orchestrating a booming declaration, “Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!â€
Bea Says:
Sarah Palin is an out of touch, radical right wing gun toting radical.
I understand she is against allowing a child molester to view pornographic material on the computer at the public library!
I realize that to some, this might seem out of touch and radical
“One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.”
Bea Says:
For example, Sarah Palin’s arrogant flaunting of her bear rug on the sofa in the picture; that is offensive.
Just because human beings can overpower animals, should they? What about the animal?
September 9th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Just because people that live in the cities have more money and political pull yet know nothing about country life can try to force their veiws and ideas on the country folks that wishes they would mind their own business should they.
Remember — it was the feds and the livestock industry that forced their extremist views and ideas on everyone when they exterminated wolves and other predators in the first place — at taxpayer expense!
They wanted to change the entire landscape of the West (and the nation)
People are just trying to right this wrong.
Bea, Thank you so much for all your intelligent, logical posts regarding wolves! I’ve just read several days worth at once-whew! Of course aerial hunting of wolves is barbaric and cruel. And of course they BELONG in our ecosystem; the nature God designed. I am not afraid of wolves in the woods like these big tough guys seem to be… I know them and respect them. People really need to get the facts, instead of believing the myths. By the way, i live in North Idaho.
You live in Idaho? Wow — I thought all those who live in Idaho hate wolves. Your comment warmed my heart
I am losing faith ….
Even so, I am wondering… do you perhaps have any knowledge of Defenders wanting to “limit access” to wolf habitat? I can understand limiting cars, snowmobiles, etc. but not people! I am a bit upset about this rumor but I don’t know if it’s accurate. What’s the point of protecting species if you can’t even see or appreciate them?
Bea, Please don’t lose faith! The wolves need you! Its simply lack of knowledge that makes these people think that “wolves are going to eat up all the animals in the forest and then start on us.” (OK I have to laugh!!) I think Fish and Wildlife has an obligation to educate the public (at least anyone going into the wilderness) about wolves and how to get along with them. Similar to how they have signs regarding bears, etc. They are less dangerous than bears, and way less dangerous than cougars, so it remains a mystery why they are so hated by some. People choose to hunt, wolves have to hunt. They can not choose to be a vegetarian, like a human can, for instance. So why are they so persecuted for simply living the way they were designed to? They are not wasteful and they do not kill for fun. Can we say that about humans? People need to read the reports from actual wildlife biologists who have studied wolves for years, and studied their relationship with the game herds. They don’t for instance, come across a dead mooseand see wolf prints around it and say “wolf killed moose=wolf bad” They watch and see how often they hunt, how often they succeed, how much of their kill they eat (all) and they also take samples of the kill and analyze it, finding for instance maybe the reason it could not defend itself. Like for instance it had cancer, malnutrition, etc. As for your question regarding limiting use of wolf habitat, no, I had not heard of that. I don’t think that would be a good idea either. People want to see the wolves
So warm and fuzzy!
I have to side with Jes. Just why are you people here??
Bea, I’ll post the same question here, where you can SEE it… Bea, I wonder just WHY you are on a hunting site? Is hunting a fascinating “taboo†for you? Do you have a mission to change the hunter way of life? Or is your intention just to infiltrate and influence all “poor misguided huntersâ€, to your non-hunting, point of view? I, for one, don’t understand it! You don’t find me on all the “defenders of wildlife†websites….and I can’t understand people who like to interfere in the lives and affairs of others! You are, dear girl, a bot of the gadflies!
George, do you choose to be a vegetarian, like a wolf can’t?
Me, I was born a carnivore, it’s in my genes, I can’t avoid it! Help me, wolfe lovers, I can’t change, ohhhhooo. Maybe wolves can eat almost anything, like a dog, but me, I’m plain mean and ornery and can’t change anymore than a leopard with his spots, hahahah…. After all, girls, they are officially omnivores….(maybe you better look that fancy word up?)
How could anyone choose snob for a handle? Oh, r9, (isn’t he the robot guy on Star Wars?) So, that’s the answer, they’re from another universe…..Lost in space!
Snobr9 has nothing to do with the word “snob”; grow up..
And to answer the question myself that was asked of Bea, I got here by clicking on some part of the comments here that were posted at a local site where I went to look up an upcoming event. I was surprised to end up on a hunters site. But since the conversation was right up my alley, having studied wolves for many years, I decided to read on and give Bea some support. Not that she needs it. You are right; we DON’T belong here. Just trying to educate you hard-headed guys. Seriously, educate yourself about wolves (like through reading, not scary campfire stories) and you will find that you won’t be so worried about them.
Deer, moose, and other ungulates have great economic and aesthetic value, but wolves have strong public support. Thus, wolf control is often highly controversial. Where wolves are the dominant predator on an ungulate species and prey numbers are below carrying capacity, a significant reduction in wolf numbers can produce increases in the number of ungulate prey (Gasaway et al 1983, Gauthier and Theberge 1987) and therefore sometimes can be economically justified. When control programs are terminated, wolves may rapidly recover through immigration and reproduction (Ballard et al. 1987). Therefore, wolf control must be considered as an acceptable management option (Mech 1985).
*The above information was taken from a University of Nebraska Web site with
express permission of Stephen Vatassel, wildlife damage project coordinator.
Hey Jes put some more wood on the fire
I suspect your view is limited only to your specialty. Might be your own lofty educated view might not be well rounded?
NATIONAL HUNTING and FISHING DAY IS SEPT.27
check out who the real environmental stewards are
http://www.nhfday.org/
Do you know what the PITTMAN-ROBERTSON ACT is? Some pay so all can enjoy! I was always taught that it was right to contribute money to the stewardship of the planet. But I suppose backing a special interest for the gratification of some has more appeal than actually supporting a federally supported scientific approach. We really are worlds apart. You won’t look but this is who we are!
http://hunting.about.com/library/weekly/aawho_are_hunters.htm
Jes, I, unlike you, like to see how the “other side” thinks. I like to learn.
I think I’ve got a pretty good idea now — it’s the more radicals that are always the loudest — the moderate and more sensible views are always drowned out by the loud ones.
I can see why hunters have the bad rap they do — it’s not because of this blog or Tom or anything but certain loud posters.
Someday I hope you see wolves and other predators for what they are — wild animals just trying to survive — doing what God designed them for — nothing more, nothing less.
I’m just waiting for the rapture myself
Some more History!
http://www.nhfday.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=6
I live in North Central Pennsylvania. I am late middle aged and white. To some that makes me “Bitter” since my lively hood was voted out and taxed to death by special interest (we know what’s good for you you don’t)lobbies. Now all I have is my GUNS and RELIGION. boy, and are there ALLOT of us wandering around these hills. Good thing is, were slow to anger and were not MAD YET!
Yea I took it personal. But I just hate the sin not the sinner
what was your livelihood?
what was your livelihood?
COAL and Forestry
Spent time on the PA Rail Road. also is no more
http://www.ncpenn.com/ren_chrono.html
know they got lion parks in the Australian OutBack?
http://www.wolfsancpa.com/home.html
Sorry guys and gal….opening day tomorrow, today that is…Busy fixin up last nite, and today off to the races…bow is in….see ya! Juat time for this note!
YAWN, scarey campfire stories ROFLMAO. I studied wolves and know all about them, where ? The ZOO. Again ROFLMAO. I suppose over 150 years of Russian Science compared to 14 years of American science concerning wolves is ” Camp fire boogey man tales. ” http://www.wolvesinrussia.com Wolves are less dangerous than cougers or bears eh, again, ROFLMAO. I guess you wolf lovers ignored Valerius Geist, Emeritous of Environmental Science, The University of Calgary, Calgary Alberta Canada, and his brilliant thesis on ” When do wolves become dangerous to humans” Also the thesis touches on ” Under what conditions are wolves not dangerous to humans.” as well. The thesis can be googled. Guess what wolf huggers, RADICAL is to be American, as our founding fathers who created this experiance called INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM pulled off a very RADICAL CONCEPT in 1776 by getting us out from under the collective thumbs of elite tyrants, which it appears we find ourselves under thay thumb again in this era, I would suggest it is an RADICAL ACT to force others not of your mind set to live with predators on their front porch, live with the decimation that un-controlled predator is very capable of doing and in FACT is doing due to poor judgement/controlled management via proper hunting techniques. Your baseless emotional arguements and attacks against those here who may believe in a deity are sickening, The wolf is an animal, I do not hate the wolf, I hate your lies.
Coal and forestry — well those are extraction industries and definitely on their way out. Sustainable industries are on their way in.
Check out the National Renewable Energy Labs (Golden, CO) There will be lots of jobs in those kinds of industries in the future for those willing to open up to new ideas.
Traditionally, the East and Midwest lacks behind the western part of the country for newer industries. It’s much more entrepreneurial here — less large companies — less manufacturing (not sure that’s a good thing unless something replaces it)
But markets are markets. The last thing we want is government socialism.
Oh, but I’m a “wolf lover.” I’m not supposed to think that way, right?
There are lots of “wolf lovers” who are also fiscal conservatives.
Coal and forestry — well those are extraction industries and definitely on their way out. Sustainable industries are on their way in.
Check out the National Renewable Energy Labs (Golden, CO) There will be lots of jobs in those kinds of industries in the future for those willing to open up to new ideas.
Traditionally, the East and Midwest lacks behind the western part of the country for newer industries. It’s much more entrepreneurial here — less large companies — less manufacturing (not sure that’s a good thing unless something replaces it)
But markets are markets. The last thing we want is government socialism.
Oh, but I’m a “wolf lover.” I’m not supposed to think that way, right?
There are lots of “wolf lovers” who are also fiscal conservatives.
No sense in replying to the “lies” comment.
Sustainable Industries are SOCIALISM silly, Sustained Development how cute…This is the means by which; Private property is co-opted by government agencies (who just picked up several failing banks and those home loans) and multi-national (Lenders) Corporations for the tax-payer better good. The better good being their profit by any means margins. it represents a major paradigm shift in values, property ownership, economics and government. Its strongest advocates are the environmental lobby. Its prime enforcement agents are the United Nations via the 35+ years old Agenda 21, which controls the Department of Interior, Fish And Wildlife Service and of course their cute little fluffy Endangered Species Act. Social Justice a UN phrase which is an un-American concept is that individuals are no longer responsible for their actions/own property/wild life/forests/ and that the community as a whole is. The idea that some government official can dictate issues for the benefit of all based solely upon his/their personal opinions, kinda like this wolf program Americans never voted on, instead it was forsed on us/ some like it, some do not, it is still Socialism. You recently typed here wolves belong to all of the people of America, thats Socialism. Your personal tax system is Communist Socialism at work. Why do you think we call SOCIAL SECURITY by that name which is broke by the way. Socialism is a broken concept itself. Funny, you state you do not want socialism yet you support it every day. Do you have a SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER ? NUFF SAID.
George Soros coming Soon to a neighborhood near you!
George,
You’re right on a few issues. SS# is socialistic and will end up to be very invasive and dangerous to freedoms and privacy. Absolutely agree with that.
Name ONE purely democratic country. No matter what, every nation in the world has SOME degree of socialism.
To have a PURE Democracy like what you want in your own Utopian view, is not realistic.
You would have to vote on every single issue; not possible. That’s what brought down the Greek democracy.
We are a Republic — Republics will never be purely democratic; there will always be degrees of socialism.
There are many private companies which build “sustainable” buildings, communities, etc. and there is NO govt. involved. I happen to work for one, (not that I want to reveal personal things about myself on this site). We design FOR govt. at a profit. We do not and have never, done a co-op thing. We wouldn’t make enough money on it for starters. We are a very profit-driven company, the antethesis of socialism.
I’m sure there is some truth to what you’re saying and there are people with socialistic agendas in the U.S. I am not one of them I can assure you.
I think the point behind “sustainable” industries is that resources are not infinite.
Sorry, we MAINLY design for private corporations; govt is just ONE of our markets.
Snobr9, are you really from North Idaho? Probably a transplant with your views on wolves. They do not eat all they kill, they do not only take the sick and weak. Your more afraid of a cougar than a pack of wolves? This tells me you must spend very little if any time in the woods. Since you seem to have such a fondness of the cute little puppies you should take a backpacking trip up pine creek or big creek, maybe go to the st. joe and hike the divide, go up to bronson meadows, lake elsie even around silver mountain, you’ll find what you’re looking for and it’s so cool to hear them howling, just to make sure you can get them to howl you should learn how to cow call or bugle like a bull elk, do that and the wolves will let you know exactly where they are. You shouldn’t have to worry about cougars or bears because the wolves have already taken care of them. Be careful and have fun.
Rob Newsome - If you want to post here and continue posting here, clean up your act. You are entitled to your thoughts but I don’t tolerate your choice of filthy words.
I deleted your post for that reason.
We are not a Republic we are a Dictatorship, The Constitution did guarantee to every state a Republican form of government, Art. 4 Sec. 4. No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. The lost Republic was one dedicated to “Liberty for all” Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have Natural Rights instead of Civil Rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights, this would not be so if the United States were a democracy.
In a pure democracy 51 beats 49. In a democracy there is no such thing as a significant, there are no minority rights except civil rights which are priviledges granted by a condescending majority. Only five of the U.S. Constitution’s first ten amendments apply to Citizens of the United States. Simply Stated, a democracy is a dictatorship of the majority. Socrates was executed by a democracy, though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable.
We lost individual sovereign status granted us by our lost republic in 1868 via that tricky 14th amendment. The United States Constitution was killed in 1913 when the 17th Amendment was supposedly ratified, it was not, but it is there. That amendment made the Constitution a one party contract and since there is no such thing as one party contracts, the Constitution died for all practical purposes.
When H.R. 192 was “passed” in 1933, the federal reserve bank, which is and always was privately owned and operated by european socialist marxist communist collectivists, for all practical purposes bought and paid for the United States government. The 1929 crash should be more clear at this point to more educated readers on that subject, simply put that event was orchestrated by intent, as is the one we are about to witness is as well.
On march 9 1933 Roosevelt declared a state of national emergency. In 1973, a Congressional investigating committee tried to get rid of these executive orders, they failed. So here we are, 75 years later, and we are still living under those Executive Orders. Dictatorship. Civil Rights. They did get rescinded once. But were re-activated by Reagan.
Now I say this, if you were a Socialist Marxist Communist Collectivist would you teach these truths in the Public Schools you control ? Would you want the people to know this truth ? would you as a foreign banker be concerned with dumbed down sheople in a country you hate and wish to ruin ? HELL NO.
I’m a hunter….I also watch my back trail, cause I know when I’m being hunted. Like our enemys who wish to ruin our Nation, and what those founders spilled their blood and wealth for so we could be free, I dont sleep either…People like Bea are over 150 years behind in factual political knowledge. Get ready for the new era…it is right around the bend.
Greg, I was there once but I got over it.
Friedrich Nietzsche was a German philosopher of the late 19th century who challenged the foundations of Christianity and traditional morality. He believed in life, creativity, health, and the realities of the world we live in, rather than those situated in a world beyond.
Central to his philosophy is the idea of “life-affirmation,†which involves an honest questioning of all doctrines that drain life’s energies, however socially prevalent those views might be. Often referred to as one of the first existentialist philosophers.
Nietzsche’s revitalizing philosophy has inspired leading figures in all walks of cultural life, including dancers, poets, novelists, painters, psychologists, philosophers, sociologists and social revolutionaries.
Forestry is a sustainable industry. Hello, Tree Farming.
Canada’s unfair lumber subsidies have for decades harmed the U.S. lumber industry, threatening its workers with mounting unemployment, and denying many tree farmers a market for their timber crops. The impact of these subsidies is apparent everywhere.
Coal is another thing altogether. The Government regulated the industry to death!
With nearly a quarter of the world’s coal supply - enough to last centuries - the United States has been dubbed the “Saudi Arabia of Coal,” by US officials and energy experts.
But thanks to growing global coal markets and clean air regulations, the US is witnessing a latter-day equivalent of “carrying coals to Newcastle” - a 230 percent leap in coal imports to the US since 1999.
No need to reveal, most of what’s transpired here is fairly transparent.
Yes, hello tree, and hello Industrial Hemp and its many sustainable uses; Canvas, food for me, food for my horse, cattle, bio-fuel, oil for my lamp, oil for me to drink, clothes, how about paper….yes our Constitution is written on Hemp paper. To bad Dupont and Newsman Randolph Hearst Sabotaged the Industrial Hemp Business in 1937 with their Mexican Marijauna Lies. Industrial Hemp will not get you high, but is a very sustainable product. http://www.jackherer.com Jack wrote a very enteresting book about hemp and hemps history in America and even the world. You would think true environmentalists who care about this earth and animals as they claim would fight for a product that is good for earth and us as a whole. Of course we all know that is not their true agenda don’t we. Thats sustainable and we need it in our economy.
Back to topic.
‘How do you think it was before man came along and ruined it all?’
I say, Well, how was it? Who would know? Lewis and Clark would know–read their journals. They ate their mules, because there was no game. They found pockets of game when they did their survey, and they saw tracks of predators. The bears were a big problem to them–and wolves.
I think these people well, they have a picture of Utopia. In schoolbooks, in the news, on the Discovery Channel, they have a picture in their minds that is not reality. That is, that somehow there was all this game and all these predators that all lived happily ever after until man came along and ruined it all. That’s what’s in their minds, but it’s a false picture.
The true picture is that Bambi, Thumper, Rocky, Bullwinkle and their friends won’t fare so well in the presence of major predators. The top of the food chain gets heavy really fast,. And what we’ll see, if the wolf and grizzly bear population is unchecked, their population explodes and everything else declines.You’ve got to choose. When you come up here and hike, do you want to see elk in that meadow? Deer drinking from the creek? Or do you want to see a few tracks of a few predators? You’ve gotta make a choice. You cannot have it both ways.
actions resulting from conflicts between public lands livestock grazing and grizzly bears and wolves has been the single largest source of carnivore mortality since these species were listed under the ESA. The 178,000+ acre Bacon Creek and Fish Creek grazing allotments on the Bridger-Teton National Forest have been the scene of longstanding conflicts between livestock producers, grizzlies, and wolves. CF is supporting NWF’s campaign to provide a private fund to buy out grazing rights on targeted public land allotments such as Bacon Creek/Fish Creek, while working simultaneously with federal land management agencies to permanently retire such allotments from grazing.
The permanent retirement of the Bacon Creek and Fish Creek grazing allotments will dramatically reduce the need for expensive control actions by wildlife agencies and also the number of polarizing political and emotional conflicts that result when livestock are killed by grizzlies and wolves. With a willing buyer and seller, the problems associated with closing allotments are almost completely eliminated, creating a win-win strategy that will greatly improve prospects for grizzly and wolf range expansion and minimize the political controversy associated with such expansions.
.
Don’t know anything about this do you Greg?
Dated 8/18/08
A three-month investigation by the Idaho State Police, Owyhee County Sheriff’s Office and other state and federal authorities yielded more than 7,000 mature marijuana plants growing in a remote part of Owyhee County Wednesday.
It was the third major pot-growing operation found on public land in recent months.
Wednesday’s action began Monday night when Idaho State Police near Marsing pulled over Jose Santoyo-Villa, who was carrying 25 pounds of marijuana bud in his truck.
Police had been investigating Santoyo-Villa three months ago.
“When we found the buds on him we knew that they were beginning to harvest,” said ISP Lt. Jack Catlin.
The investigation lead to a stash house in Nampa containing even more processed marijuana.
“We collected about 125 pounds of pot there,” Catlin said.
Catlin said Santoyo-Villa would be charged in connection to the growing operation on state charges, but also will likely face federal charges as well.
The growing plants were located on National Forest land in a remote area off Idaho 78 near Silver City.
The only access to the area is by a long foot trail or by helicopter.
Catlin said operation was very organized, using irrigation pipes that fed off a natural spring.
“It was planted like crops - in rows,” Catlin said.
He said it would take several people to cultivate that much marijuana. He estimated that the patch been producing the drug for about three years.
Hadn’t heard of this one, but last year in this county (Blaine) same deal, some illegal aliens were growing a crop and some bow-hunters found it. It’s getting to be a problem for sure, people doing this for the wrong reasons. But lets be clear, The drug plant, and the Industrial plant are two seperate plants. There is a positive use for this product. I am against smoking of marijuana, those people who want it for comfort due to being stupid about what went into their bodies I say to bad, shoulda ate healthy real foods, organic when possible. Shoulda drank your eight glasses of water per day, preferably not from some city tap poisened with fluoride. Shoulda stayed away from those cans of beer and soda suger water chemical pop. Shoulda excercised. I did 30 miles this morning on my mountain bike, drank a gallon of water, ate some shelled hemp seeds, drank some hemp oil. Chewing raw Kale right now, dreaming about my next ELK, any questions ? heh heh heh.
I know I got too much time on my hands. But I got no intentions to be the healthiest man in the cemetery!
Hell, I just don’t want none of that Socialized “free” medical the Dumbocraps keep pushing all the time. I think they should inject themselves with it.
Hell, I hear reports that it’s likely your going to die waiting in line at the emergency room for that “FREE” medical attention. Might as well just stumble out the back door and die in the paddock. Turn myself into wolf crap and make the Anti’s happy!
UTUBE got something here on Sarah Palin Wolf Killer:
http://www.fogcityjournal.com/wordpress/2008/09/20/sarah-palin-wolf-killer/
Greg, I read most, if not all of your reference websites, and appreciate most all of them, but when it comes to the hemp issue, I gotta take exception.. I know that you and I are somewhat removed from the modern masses, and I think you are ignoring what is going on with the widespread usage of “non-medicinal” hemp..You might find a parallel with the Chinese indulgences of pre-boxer war China, and how that country fell into stagnation during it’s drug usage…
Granted, you’ve got a great plant, there, but it’s widespread usage would be another disaster this country doesn’t need…it’s already got enough deluded minds out there, and this plant has the propensity to subtly influence that many more with it’s intoxication…I’ve seen it’s influence in too many people to disregard it’s power. It’s just like anything else, good qualities and bad, depending on the way it’s being used….
Just got back from the hunting woods, where it’s so dang hot, and bug laden, seriously bug laden….but it’s still good to be there! Found a spot to go back to, but will give myself a day to recover and rest..Had a heart attack, a month ago, and am gradually working back the strength I have lost….I’m learning to play my cards more carefully, and closer to my chest!
See you guys haven’t run off Bea, which is a wild card for the deck, and haven’t settled all the worlds problems overnight! Save a few for me….Stay active IS the word, for keeping your health, and good diet, as well….just don’t let down your guard, or you will be wolf scat!
Oh, I finally figured out why, people like wolves so well….it’s because they’re KILLERS…people are fascinated by killers….it’s a fact! Personally, I think they ought to give us as hunters, the same rights they are giving the wolves, free rein in all areas where they are released…that way hunters can keep down the population of elk and deer and wolves down, and tourists can pay to see US, and even have a personal experience with US…the KILLERS…..hahahahhaha.
(Bet a busload of Beas would turn up to gawk!)
Jes, you could smoke industrial hemp but all you would get is a headache, not a high from it. America once had 2000 farms growing industrial hemp. Teach in schools the body is a temple and must be treated as such then you have less people trying to escape this illusion of hope and instead being more positive there really is hope and we must strive for it. Not smoke or drink and quit on ourselves. Take exception Jes, but read it any how as every thing deserves investigation, and remember who created this earth, he musta decided that plant deserved to be here for mans use too, a correct use.
How did the subject go from Gov.Palin (wolf killer)to smoking Hemp?
Oh, God! Now we’ll have somebody running around saying Sarah Palin smokes hemp!
Ha Ha Ha!
Good question though Jim.
KILLER WEED FOUND IN PALIN COUNTRY! Wolves are guardians! Palin condones aerial shooting! SAVE THE WOLVES!
It seems that the UTUBE smear clips of Sarah Palin Were set up by the Obama Camp Now who would of thought that?
http://www.examiner.com/x-701-National-Defense-Examiner~y2008m9d22-Smear-videos-against-Palin-linked-to-Obama-campaign
Ok lets hunt but not aerial hunt. ok im done arguing that. now onto that black guy. Obama will get SHOT!!! no matter who wins we got a race war on our hands. obama gets killed blacks get mad, mccain wins blacks get mad, obama wins whites shoot him and blacks get mad. and if mccain wins whites will get severely picked on in the media. but who always comes out ontop? whites. alot of fights and killing sprees will happen in roughly a month and five or six days. it’s coming, get ready!
Sarah Palin can kiss my ass…
Better move your nose first so she can get a clean shot
Well Heck, I would rather Sarah kissed my arse instead of Roman Catholic Joe Biden, no-tellin what Nazi Biden would do to my arse given the opportunity.
I got back from hunting, way too tired to stay up long enough to watch it….caught about the first 15 min. and then ZZZZZZZZ…
Sounded too much like the same old bull to keep me up…I hope she pulled something out of the hat before it was over…but either 1. the country has gone too far to the left to ever return to sanity and she couldn’t say what she thinks…Or 2. once you get entrenched in politics, you’re in too deep to change anything for the better…Or hopefully,3. she keeps it all in her hat until she CAN do something about it…
At this time in history, I think that there is one big question mark hanging over the whole country, as to whether it’s going to stay in God’s hand anymore…It seems to be taking itself out of the hand that can save it…
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