Pray, Montana Suffers Massive Wolf Kills On Elk Herd
February 27, 2008
Robert T. Fanning Jr. is an integral part of Friends of the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd. Bob has for years been saying that the gray wolves in and around the Yellowstone area are ravaging the elk herd.
In a recent email from Mr. Fanning to Wolf Crossing, Fanning says there’s not much left.
There used to be 19,700 elk in the Mt FWP (Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks) winter range next to my home, now we are down to 400.
No bulls.
No calves.
All the cows average over 9 years old.
I would assume that Mr. Fanning knows how to count and living next to the winter range for the Yellowstone elk herd, he would probably have more opportunity than most to keep track of numbers. If these numbers are accurate, this is a travesty. Is this what we have to look forward to with continued unchecked protection of the gray wolf? Are we going to sit idly by while allowing a predator complete run of the range while the elk herd, of which millions of dollars have been invested, gets wiped out?
I’m sorry but this is wrong!
Tom Remington
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[...] Smart Fashionista wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerpt Robert T. Fanning Jr. is an integral part of Friends of the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd. Bob has for years been saying that the gray wolves in and around the Yellowstone area are ravaging the elk herd. In a recent email from Mr. Fanning to Wolf Crossing, Fanning says there’s not much left. There used to be 19,700 elk in the Mt FWP (Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks) winter range next to my home, now we are down to 400. No bulls. No calves. All the cows average over 9 years old. I would a [...]
Think it’s time to decide..elk or wolves. To be honest I don’t mind having to go to the zoo to one.
to see one
Or see a rerun of “Call Of The Wild”
Wolf Crossing is really getting to be a great site to visit- I for one appreciate that breath of fresh air, all there used to be was save the wolfy sites- now we have wolf crossing, save our elk, and more it’s great. Too bad the wolves are still ravaging our herds all the while we’re trying to open up some eyes as to what’s really going on!
I don’t know much about wolves or what they are doing, but I don’t really care. I wish you would write about something else. Preferably something that outdoorsmen actually care about.
Look Mr. Tim, it is kill or be killed on the prairie. My cousin Jebadia was killed by one of tehm fierce and dangerous animals. We have to irradiate these unfriendly beasts. Have you ever seen a wolf? They are like big scary dogs, but more dangerouse. In Norse mythology wolves are feared and one of them is coming end of days named Fenrir. They new these animals are dangerous, and so should you.
Elk are an indangered species we must protect them so give up your hunts and give up your guns and then those advocates of stealing your rights and property rights can move forward with those other agendas on the back of them clip boards. ha ha. We need to tattoo a number on your arm soon too folks, and no Mohawk hair cuts at school no more either, got it. The thought police will be by later. You know how it is, truth begets hatred. stop picking on those wolfies. ha ha ha.
It’s time for some common sense. Just shoot the wolves.
Tim, unless your objective as an “outdoorsman” is to look at a mountian blue jay or a red-tailed hawk, this is by far the most important issue facing the hunting population today. If wolf advocates get their way and they are, they will set a precedent to stop all predator control. If you’re a hunter, you must know that every prey population dealing with unchcked predators will be devastated. Did you not read the above words, “there used to be 19,700 elk in the MT (Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks) winter range next to my home, now we are down to 400, no bulls, no calves and all the cows average over 9 years old.” This is a crisis Tim, what would you have us talk about? How big of a bull YOU shot last year, or how many pheasants you shot last year, please humor us and tell us what you think “outdoorsmen and women” would prefer to talk about.
“Wolf facts: Notwithstanding the wolf advocates’ propaganda, several thousand recored human deaths resulting from wolf attacks worlwide have been compiled and published. Many were copied from historical records covering only brief periods in time.
For example, during one three year period from June 1764 to June 1767, 210 recored wolf attacks in the Gevauden Region of southern France resulted in 49 people wounded and 113 killed. Of those killed, at least 98 were partially consumed.
The government record keepers were familiar with attacks by rabid wolves and none of the 210 attacks fell into that category. Proof of this is that most of the dead victims were eaten and none of the survivors died from rabies.
From 1800-1824, statistics compiled from French records show that 225 victims were attcked by rabid wolves and another 295 were attacked by non-rabid wolves. But wolf attacks on humans dropped dramaticallly in France and other European countries during that period. Wolf attack victims in France declined from 1,724 in the previous 100 years, to 196 in the next 175 years.
What caused the change? The same two things caused the decline in wolf attacks on several continents. (1) Widespread use of firearms for protection from wolves in rural areas; and (2) massive predator control programs.
In Russia between 1944 and 1950, 22 children between the ages of 3 and 17 were attacked and killed by wolves in areas around Kirov. A government commission documented 80 Russians dying from wolf attacks during that period.” (The Outdoorsman, bulletin number 4). I use these facts, to illustrate that the the threat is “real” and that this subject is exactly what “outdoorsmen” should be talking about.
We as the hunting public should all be banding together, nationwide, to stop this devastation of one of our greatest natural resources. The facts are, unchecked predators kill and injure more humans and devastate prey populations. STOP THE INSANITY AND BRING BACK SOUND BIOLOGICAL MANAGMENT!!!!!
Thanks Paul D
Paul is Right and I also have this information myself in my Master wolf file Ive been building. Not only that the Largest Elk herd of the North West from the Selway is GONE guys. 26,000 elk in 1996 and four head have been seen at the Winter Ranges along the Clear Water In Idaho. As well the Middle Fork of the Boise River used to have 10,000+ elk Wintering along this River from Atlanta to Lucky Peak, Ive driven this road three times this Winter and I have glassed 160 head. The South Fork of the Boise River should have 8,000 head along that drainage and Ive seen 57 elk in there. The Payette River between Grandjean and Lowman Idaho where I grew up and still spend time at should have 4500 head of elk in those wintering spots, I located 54 cows, no bulls, no calves. I found 300 elk in the King Hill Area South of Bennett Mountain, there should be 5000 head there. All I can say is WAY TO GO WOLF PROGRAM and those delusional wolf lovers, way to go. Here is that clear water flying Idaho’s backcountry for elk link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeD45eM_DN0 I must go out onto my front porch now and fill my wolfie bowl with doggy food.
Might be why advancements in gun design during the 1700’s happened. Men got tired of the wolves eating their women. LOL
[...] Pray, Montana Suffers Massive Wolf Kills On Elk Herd [...]
[...] other day I posted a brief comment from Robert Fanning of the Friends of the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd. In Pray, Montana, which is just outside the [...]
[...] I posted the short article mentioned above about Bob Fanning’s claims that nearly 20,000 elk have been reduced to 400, [...]
[...] I posted the short article mentioned above about Bob Fanning’s claims that nearly 20,000 elk have been reduced to 400, [...]
As a current resident of Pray, Montana and a avid hunter and elk watcher I am disappionted in Mr. Fanning’s claim that there are only 400 elk left on the wintering range near his home. Wolves have undoubtedly had a large effect, along with other factors, on the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd. I have watched these herd counts dwindle in the last decade after the herd reached their peak numbers. This year alone there are more than 400 cows on the winter range and around it. There are also bulls still up high in the deep snow that are part of this herd. Admittedly there are less elk, but not to the degree that Mr. Fanning reported. The herd is definitely in danger of being wiped out, but the number 400 is an exaggeration and does little to help the credibility that this herd is in trouble. In order to help, we need to be accurate and level headed about the situation, or else we sound no better than someone who would say that wolves had no effect on the recent decline.
Thanks for the constructive input to this discussion, Alan! It’s appreciated.
That is a good point by Allen, But how much snow is around that Range, I can tell you this, In Idaho we have a lot of Snow, and the Bulls are not up high here, and what of the calves? where are they? I have found several dead bulls up high, I’m thinking they stay-up high to avoid being eaton. Also found a 34″ 6×7 Mule deer at 8,000ft on the 48-44 hunt border dead from starvation, What do you suppose Kept this Buck up on that Rock pile in Winter? I have been finding horns in places I never used to in tha past, high on ridges and in basins. I guess I would sit up there myself and starve before being eaton alive. Why do you think hunts end early? So to allow all the game to migrate The game know we have left, they know the wolves are still there. Bears are being dug from their dens and eaton while half asleep. If the bulls are up high in my neck of the woods, they are under the snow, or are scat.
Greg, I couldn’t agree more. We’ve found kills where antlers used to be, things are changing in a way that shows something is detrimentally awry. And although Fanning may have underestimated the number of elk in MT, and I can see what Allan means, his statement stands out that “The herd is definitely in danger of being wiped out,” which is the truth that needs addressed- we musn’t wait until the current number of animals there dip below 400, and the numbers of ungulates in the northwest dip and dip to the point that it’s too late.
Alan, I don’t find your comments to be constructive, in that, you pretty much are saying the same thing as Mr. Fanning and then harshly critisizing him. You said “This year alone there are more than 400 cows on the winter range and around it. There are also bulls still up high in the deep snow that are part of this herd.” How is that different, then him saying, he could only count 400 cows this year on that winter range, and no bulls or calves. How many elk in this area did YOU count? You stated the bulls are up high in the deep snow. The majority of those bulls will probably not make it through this winter because of predation and/or starvation. Unless, my math skills since college have withered, isn’t 19,700 animals killed down to appx. 400 animals, almost a 5000 percent decrease in herd size!
Even if there were several thousand head on these winter grounds, it is still a drop in the bucket compared to 20,000. How is this biologicly sound? These elk on these winter grounds are coming out of many different drainages to congregate, in the only place they can find food. This means that out of all those drainages, there are only remnants of elk herds there.
Hello again! I am sorry that you did not appreciate the comment that I posted on this blog sir. I do not mean to offend anyone with what I said and completely agree that this herd is in trouble. The point I was trying to reach is that we need to have our facts straight if the hunting community wants to be credible on the situation. I have not personally counted the herd due to time constraints and the lack of a helicopter. Mr. Tom Lemke, local biologist for the area, recently performed his annual helicopter count of this herd and found the number of bulls, cows, and calves to equal 6,279 elk. Quite a difference between that number and 400. This count is very similar to the results found in the last two years with 6,588 in 2006 and 6,738 in 2007, but is still a huge drop from the peak in population. The bulls that I spoke of as being “up high” are in the areas that they usually range in. Whether or not these animals die from starvation or predation is up to mother nature. The point I was trying to reach is that these bulls are high enough (and are usually high enough) that to try and count them without a helicopter is impossible. Once again, I do not mean to offend anyone. I am just trying to set the facts straight.
I will say that the Idaho Fish and Game Department flys an area and if they actually see 100 elk they estimate there should be another 200 elk they missed or were under cover. Thus they write down 300, or maybe even 400 and then move onto the next canyon, or range, depending on the time of year they do the counts. Ultimately they are guessing. I have this first hand from two officers of the Idaho Fish and Game. Grew up with these fellers, and they are angry like I am, yet will not speak out as they can not, because they would be fired. I have been running with officers of the game department since childhood and hear news often thru these sources. I considered it for a career myself, but chose other more lucrative means of self employment. So I would suspect Montana functions in the same capacity doing these counts which ultimately are guessing. Ive known for many years now that these counts are not reliable by the agencies. Its business to them folks, think about it, would you come out and admit there are less than 1000 elk, knowing you need to sell 40,000 tags to sustain your business. I would not buy a tag from that agency, would you. This is the case in Idaho, and I tell every one stop buying tags. stop now. They are lying to us. Im hunting Montana over the counter next fall, and applying for goats and sheep in three states. Folks should understand that the federal government is in control of what these state agencies release to the public thru the FWS itself. They just spent billions on a failure. we paid for it, now we are going to pay to fix it most likely, first those wolf avocates will waste millions of tax-dollars defending against the suits which are ready and shall be filed soon. They will lie about the counts because it is a strategy which prolongs the populance from getting the truth, those agencies are sadly more credible than those of us on the ground telling you the truth as we see it. I covered another 120 miles on the ground in the last two days. Im still trying to find 175,000 elk in Idaho as claimed by this angency, Im coming up way short.
The wolf will just as readily kill and eat humans as it will the elk and dear. If our game populations are decimated we will have wolves in town. We are already at risk when we are out on our atvs or snowcats or biking on the bike trail or fishing or hunting. There was a reason our grandfathers got rid of the wolves and it didn’t just have to due with protecting live stock. The ecology isn’t the same as it was 200 years ago. Our big game herds are managed by hunting now not by predators. To reintroduce wolves will most likely destroy our dear and elk and our ability to enjoy this beautiful country. I wonder if the folks who thought this up didn’t know this? John
Just noticed that “Alan ” wrote in to refute me and the photograph of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation / Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks winter range being devoid of once abundant elk. The winter range is my next door neighbor.
2,800 cow tags were canceled.I had the balls to use my full name , “Alan” did not.
There are no bulls left.
We all assume;
1) Alan lives here
2)Alan hunts
3) Alan doesn’t work for Mt FWP who breeched the public trust by not petitioning to delist wolves
Mt FWP and Lemke flew 50 miles north of the winter range to get their census count.
Pictures dont lie.
Bottom line ; there are 14,000 dead elk and the bureaucrats got off scott free.
I am in constant contact with outfitters, guides and sportsmen in this area.
They all agree with me.
All the hunting tag reductions are a confession as far as I’m concerned, Idaho has had many tag cuts as well. Time to end the era od ” Bureaucraps.”
Ouch. Alan. Looks like you took a good hit here. You guys don’t seem to get his point. If you really want something done, if this is indeed a crisis, things have got to be damn accurate. And going off half cocked at the government doesn’t help. There are a lot of reasons why elk die. Someone, one of you well experienced outdoorsmen, needs to find out exactly why they are dying. Yeah, wolves kill a lot. yeah, they will at times kill more than they can eat. But sometimes these animals die for other reasons. (check out the moose/wolf research done on Isle Royal. In 2 years the moose population went from around 2400 down to 500. And it wasn’t the wolves that killed them off. It’s a really interesting study done by Rolf Peterson.)
If you want people to take this seriously, and I mean people who are not already behind you guys 110%, then you really need to get some facts down. And please, I don’t mean more grisely pictures of wolf kills, what does that prove? Cougars kill like that, bears too. Any predator will!
And I am still trying to sort this all out. How many of you want them completely gone? how many just want controls put on them? I don’t think completely gone is the solution either.
Cougers do not kill like wolves do, cougers strangle their large prey, and then move it off and hide it by burying it and then feeding on the kill for days. Bears do not kill or waste game like wolves either, when the bear takes down an elk or deer, the animal is usaully slow and old, and the bear will eat an elk in one night, seen it first hand. Bears mostly steal from the couger. Wolves are wasting and sport killing machines. We had perfect management of big game herds until the re-introduction of wolves. What was once plentiful in 13 short years is all but decimated with cow to calf elk ratios at 30% or less in the three states of Idaho/Wyoming/Montana. The only other predator that behaves like the wolves is the coyotes. Eight years ago Idaho Fish And Game started selling way to many Cow elk and Doe deer permits via controlled hunts, at the time I thought this was stupid and it was. Idaho Fish and Game has cut most controlled hunt tags state wide by 50% or more, I even heard 60%. The states involved in wolf reintroduction never had the prey base or the landspace for this program to be success. Canada did have the land space and prey base thus the wolves would move about in those larger open spaces and had/have success in Canada. That is just not the case in our lower 48. When government agencies lie lie lie to push an agenda no matter what for profit, the people need to stand up and point to the truths as our founders said so long ago, these truths are self evident. I suggest you look harder for it, start by reading George Dovels Report right here as Tom has placed it in a PDF for all to see. One major human error we see is the error of denial, or the confession of failure by government ” employees.” Sorry we wasted millions on a mistake, HA. Like that will ever come to light by those who perpetrated the mistake.
[...] Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks winter range next to my home, now we are down to 400. No bulls. …http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2008/02/27/pray-montana-suffers-massive-wolf-kills-on-elk-herd/Lake Elmo State Parkhttp://fwp.mt.gov. Email: fwprg52mt.gov … Billings, MT 59105. Phone: [...]
Greg Farber, you are GARBAGE.
[...] Pray, Montana Suffers Massive Wolf Kills On Elk Herd – Black Bear Blog – Black… Long Time Passing : Wyoming Hunting Today Says: [...] I posted the short article mentioned above about Bob Fanning s claims that nearly 20,000 elk have been reduced to 400, [...] February 29th, 2008 at 1:25 pm Alan Says: As a current resident of Pray, Montana and a avid hunter and elk watcher I am disappionted in Mr. I have been finding horns in places I never used to in tha past, high on ridges and… [...]
I live on a ranch in southwest Montana. I have not seen an elk on our land this entire year. They used to come here in herds in the late spring to calf. They have all moved out or are gone.
I have not seen a wolf here yet, but many of my ranching and wool growing friends have had nothing but losses from the wolves. A few days ago a sheep rancher near Drummond found a wolf in his sheep barn where he locks up his sheep at night for “safety” from the wolves. This is ludicrous! Are we supposed to raise livestock to feed predators? As for guard dogs, how many would it take to run a wolf pack off? How many range riders do we need to pay for to keep them from molesting our cattle? Even if they don’t kill many, they run them so much, the calves don’t gain the weight they’re supposed to gain over the summer. One rancher lost $92,000 in lost weight in one season. How many ranchers will continue to raise cattle and suffer these losses? A sheep rancher I know lost 90 ewes and his prized ram to wolves. Do you suppose he was “compensated” for these losses? How do you lose years of breeding to get superior animals and then have to come back to do it all over again because of the bastardly wolves??? The environmentalists need to open their eyes. They don’t even have a clue as to how wolves torture their prey by eating it alive.
They need to get their heads out of their ___!
Paul D: Who cares if wolves eat people!?
Well Paul D , I guess you just defined “sociopath” for us ;and isn’t that just what wolf worshipers are?
The only thing i hate more than a wolf is the #$$%@$%# #$$%#@@$ environmentalist standing behind them. How do they know whats happening when their lazy a$$s never leave the trail. they have no idea whats happening and this is just another reason for them to complain. i wonder how many of them have actually seen an elk being eaten alive by a pack of wolves. Im glad i was able to experiance this great state before the age of the #$#%@#$%@#$ environmentalist. Goodbye elk.
Everything the Fed’s touch turn’s to shit…An entire nation is proof..And acting like Rome the feds create a desert and call it peace and paradise..The fed values a dog more than its citizens..Who is surprised ? The fed said aspertame is harmless..drink up America..the fed is lookin out for you..
Can’t you guys see the anti-hunters are in control? They protect the bears, introduce the wolves, and ignore the mountain lions and pretty soon there is no big game to hunt. Take back America!
How do we take back America- never vote for anyone unless they are are a real hunter! It is high time our elected officials stood up for hunters by both protecting the environment and supporting our Second Amendment Rights. So far it is pretty much choose between the two if you know what I mean.
Actually, real men don’t need guns to hunt. Just kill with your hands or whatever you can make at home. Sadly, there appears few real men.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis
Pay particular attn ~5:15 into the video and see where the camera pans as Susanna Gratia Hupp says, “The 2nd Amendment is not about duck hunting . . . [it is] to protect ourselves from you guys up there!”
Animals have agility and strength which man cannot compete with physically, but mans intellectual power rules over the beasts.. We made pets, beasts of burden, and foods of them, and we protected fields of crops from them as well, so even the pretenders among us could eat.. Now I could go out and devise a means via my hands to kill my prey, There are several ways to do it, but a fine rifle and scope is the most efficient and merciful process our intellects have devised to date..
I think you’re all a bunch of morons. Open your damn eyes and look around. Is anything like it used to be? Climate is changing and everything else along with it. You can’t lay the blame on the wolves entirely. And yeah, cougars don’t kill like a wolf but a dead chewed up carcass looks gross from anyone’s perspective. You all are just as bad as the environmental wackos out there, showing the extremes, getting emotions all worked up. FACTS. Cold hard facts. Can you prove that ALL of those elk were decimated by wolves? Every single one of them? I don’t think so. But hey, let’s be irresponsible and put a blanket blame on it all! Let’s blame the wolf. Because GOD forbid we have our hunting depleted! Going after live stock is one thing. A person should be able to defend their living. But give me an effing break here people.
This is so Greg Farber: “mans intellectual power rules over the beasts”.
Jay T
Well spoken Keep it up!
Oh yeah, and just in case you want to start telling me about how I’m with the environmentalists and how I don’t know what I’m talking about just because i side with the wolves, guess again. I’m third generatioin rancher. I don’t like it any better than you all do when something gets at my cattle. It makes me pretty damned pissed. But I’m not going to paint the entire predator population black because they are supposedly decimating the trophy surplus. If all you survive on is elk, you have a damned right to complain and I won’t hold that against you. But I’m pretty sure almost every one on this site eats beef and pork and chicken too. Predators are a part of tne natural balance. Period. Man has tried to control surplus deer and elk on their own and wow, we can all see just how well that’s worked, right? Woohoo for the top predator known as man!
JT, this ones for you
yawn
Not a problem Bob. Didn’t expect much of an intelligent comment back from you anyway. Thanks for not disappointing. I understand how difficult it is to come back with something logical.
Glad I could help your insomnia.
I don’t eat beef very often, I never eat filthy chicken, and I especially never eat filthy pork.. No one here is calling out for the decimation and ruination of predators, just their management, so as to include a large enough prey base for them, and those of us who wish to participate in hunting and gathering practices.
I believe in a higher power above man, which created man in its image, and that higher power gave man dominion over the animals, I especially do not believe in coincidences based on fallacy as some others of this country do.. Idaho has to many wolves, wolves kill off the weakest member of the ungulate herd which are the new born elk calves, the next in line for weakest are the pregnant cow elk, in late pregnancy, their very vulnerable..
Then you have the weakened from rutting season bulls..easy targets.. IDFG Biologists officially have confirmed wolves are over killing those mentioned above, in eight hunt units, actually nine, including the Boise River Zone.. The damage is real, and other units are showing the strains of over predation by wolves.. Then we come to the sick, if you chase elk long enough in snows and cold their sick.. It has been illegal for decades for man to go out and disturb elk herds in winter so as to not stress them.. BUT, now it is perfectly fine for a pack of wolves to stress them 24/7… The wolves make elk sick, via stress, and via keeping them from eating, as the University of Montana has recently shown, happened in Yellow Stone…
The problem is not wolves, the problem is someone in the new American wolf program, not listening to others from Canada and else where severely miscalculating the additional predator (wolf) to this eco system and allowing those predators to exceed the eco systems carrying capacity for the wolf, meanwhile Idaho has not been over or much less at ungulate carrying capacity.. The interesting thing is this, all units have had hunt tag opportunity reduced, that is controlled and open hunt units, As well Idaho has several control hunt units for a reason, those units have been under carrying capacity for decades..
Those hunt units have suffered far more damage from wolves than the open hunt units have, which IDFG has admitted are over predated by wolves… No wolf management equals no prey for wolves, and eventually no wolves either.. I of course do not believe in the unproven method of letting nature take its course, in the cattle business if you do that your out of business, and in the game management business doing this bankrupts the ungulate populations and that in turn damages the predator populations…
And that is where we are at in Idaho, I am even seeing less wolves now.. After observing their population explosion take place, I am now observing their decline.. In Fact Cal Groen, IDFG , stated wolves are” killing one another “. The miscalculation, and over protection of wolves has caused far more deaths of wolves than hunting has… Far more.. And those deaths are on the heads of morons..
An intelligent response, thank you. I agree with you on the fact that there are people out there, ON BOTH SIDES, that have their own agenda. Wackos don’t only belong to the environmentalists. Ranching, farming, it’s all a gamble when you rely on Mother Nature, who can be a very ficikle mistress. Trying to stack the odds by illiminating something you consider a nuisance is wrong. Stacking the odds by ‘introducing’ more wolves than is necessary is also wrong. All I’m looking for is a good balance. That’s going to be impossible with all the nut jobs in charge on both sides of the fence. Thanks for the intelligent reply Greg.
Greg,
Well said, there has got to be a balance. When you add another predator to a healthy predator base somethings got to give. I saw three bears from one of my elk stands during archery season within an hour one evening. Had a lot of bulls killed by tresspassers sucks working during the week and not being able to patrol the property and now that it’s muzzleloader season for elk and deer we’re seeing wolf sign, they took quite a few last winter and I’m really worried about the elk this winter, hopefully it’s not to tough on them. My son and I both have wolf tags so maybe we can cull a couple out of the pack, it’s tripled in size from last year, went from for 4-5 to about 12 from what I hear.
MikeL, Man, I don’t want to sound like a bleeding heart here but make double sure you got those wolf numbers right. If there are that many, something needs to be done.
Funny thing is the wolves don’t bother near as much as the trespassers, wolves can’t read and they don’t tear down gates or leave beer cans laying around. One good thing is at least the trespassers took the meat, hope they eat all of it.
Wolves are the endagered species. There are only a handful left in the Yellowstone area thanks to idiots from Pray, Mt. who shoot wolves wearing a radio collar…..brave man.
Elk are not endangered. What is really being said is that hunters are jealous that they can’t kill the elk. The bottom line is that it is time for people to grow up. This is no longer the Wild West.
Drink it all up, alha skins. Atta boy, good job. Bob the head – it goes up and down, up and down.
Wolves are the endagered species. There are only a handful left in the Yellowstone area thanks to idiots from Pray, Mt. who shoot wolves wearing a radio collar…..brave man.
Elk are not endangered. What is really being said is that hunters are jealous that they can’t kill the elk. The bottom line is that it is time for people to grow up. This is no longer the Wild West.
Yo Al……really mature yourself…..take your own advice….grow up!! There are greater issues here than kiling wolves wearing collars. If i caught “anything” killing my stock…..it’s dead.
Haskins, you’re just stupid..
I like the wolves. I do not like them going after my stock. Balance is preferable. If a wolf is taking down one of my animals, I will shoot it. However, there are some people who will use any excuse to shoot a wolf. I would like to think that most of the people here have common sense…
They might use any excuse, they might have trouble finding one to shoot, and they have not been shooting wolves outside the legal hunts.. Other than a couple here and there, and not anymore than deer or elk are poached.. Just another game critter, nothing more nothing less, it is time that dog was brought down off of its pantheistic alter..
Ah Greg, I was waiting for you to give us your pearls of wisdom…Careful throwing around the big words, some folk might not know what you’re talkin about…
I for one do not see the wolf as God. God is God. The wolf was put here by God and Adam was supposed to take care of all of God’s creatures, not blast ‘em away just because it can be done.
Adams contract ended when Christ changed up the game on the fallen freak wreaking havoc today.. I was certain you did not bow down to the wolf Jay.. I hate those big fancy words the Hegelianists use to toss out 500 characters when 50 suffice. During Adams Tenure wolves ate grass, up to the apple episode, then the death era began, won’t it be nice when it is passed on with the greens god..
I dunno Greg. I still firmly believe we should take care of what was given us, no matter how things changed after the great apple incident. The shark, the wolf, tigers, cougars, all of the flesh eaters, I still think they were put here by God. If they threaten you, if they threaten the animals that are under your protection (sheep, cattle, horses, dogs etc) well then the choice is clear. I find myself going back and forth on this issue so much. I understand where your coming from but darnit all, I just can’t hate ‘em you know? I can’t wish their destruction. Not sure where that puts me…
The wolf’s digestive tract is such that it can not live on grass alone, nor does it have teeth that are efficient at clipping or grinding herbs.. A little mistake in the design of the carnivore, perhaps?
i agree with that, but we also have a responsibility, dominion, especially in these lands we live on, to not allow and over abundance of predators to ruin that which we built up over time, with the renewed management process since the 30s, established after man actually did the same thing with unmanaged hunts..
Killing game late in the fall, pre winter, when the snow made hunting easy.. We did it, and the wolf will and is doing it now.. We needed management for our selves, and now unfortunately we must shoot a few wolves.. Will it help the elk decline, I don’t believe that for a second.. USFWS and IDFG are in trouble and their proving that with their actions of killing wolves..
They are admitting elk are crashing by their very actions even though they verbally deny this truth.. The rancher hater crowd wishes to lay the fault on their theory it is the ranchers ordering this done, BS.. This entire debacle is demonizing one of mans oldest professions, hunting, and even private property ownership, by design.. Jay, I hunt four units, the Sawtooth Zone, the damage and elk herd collapse is real..
I am even seeing far less wolves, they left, or died.. This will not work, because the elk can not run down to the Snake Plains for the winters as they did a century ago, with wolves in tow, so it may be unfair to shoot them, as well it is unfair to allow them to starve as they cannot manage their feed any more than your cattle can.. And asking elk to run for their lives in 2-4 ft. snows is not cool in my book either..
This is going to get much worse, stay tuned..
Obviously, you have Biblical knowledge, well then you know who Rome is do you not ? Then keep in mind The Club of Rome and Knights of Malta designed this ESA, and all of this environmentalist dogma.. Sustainable Development.. You know as well as I that the fox don’t work out in the chicken coop.
If shootin the dog bugs you then don’t shoot the dog.. i don’t like it either.. i don’t hate Gods creations, I am disappointed in men who play god, and lie all the time about everything, I hate lies..
” The wolf’s digestive tract is such that it can not live on grass alone, nor does it have teeth that are efficient at clipping or grinding herbs.. A little mistake in the design of the carnivore, perhaps?”
When you meet your maker you can take up his mistakes with him Lee..
Meanwhile why don’t you explain to me how those brilliant Egyptians drew hieroglyphs of dinosaurs on walls, goblets and other items..
Slaying the Dragon: Evolution & Dinosaurs pt.1/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LCuUkl4tqs
Slaying the Dragon: Evolution & Dinosaurs pt.2/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djbPJMbqIMw&annotation_id=annotation_393854&feature=iv
Evolution gets OWNED!!! LOL Hilarious 0:36 sec.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBwXFBBXcS0&feature=related
Greg, I just wasted over a half hour viewing your unconvincing links. If you believe this crap you are more ignorant of reality than I imagined. I thought the Peruvian “dinosaurs” looked more like llamas. I could spend more time commenting on other points of contention but you would negate them also.
And why is it that you have no answer regarding the “design” of carnivores and only suggest that “When you meet your maker you can take up his mistakes with him Lee..”? In my opinion, that will never happen. Another typical dodging the question tactic.
How is the hunting in the southland of Idaho? My brother got an elk in the Clearwater area last week.
Lol, first off I am not going to research the digestive tract or chewing capabilities of dogs, the Creator of all things could make predators live on shrubs, leaves, grasses, if he chose to do it, and how many plants or vegetables are protein, those digestive tracts could function on vegetable protein. I do this for my dogs, mashed hemp seed, corn, pea’s, broccoli, potatos, sea salt and they scarf it up.. You are the biggest dodger among us here.. The Ancient Artifacts speak for themselves.. People saw Dinosaurs and they drew pictures of them.. You believe in a scientific fraud, it is still OFFICIALLY a theory.
Is mans digestive tract designed for meat Lee ?
I loathe this Evolution crap more than anything else.. Environmentalism perhaps.. Damn are those people messed up in their heads or what… They refuse to look at the valid evidence which destroys both of those lies… Peer reviewed science is god The big question is why are there still monkeys, it is because of issues such as this and many others Darwin didnt bellieve in Evolution. He came back from the Galapagos with a theory that at some level in a given specific environment, Natural selection occured.
This is a far cry from evolution and it wasn’t until afer Darwin died that the propaganda machine went into full bore. Lies on top of lies. Evolution is nothing but a scam by two Jesuits by the name of Erasmus Darwin and his Grandson known as Charles Darwin. Remember how the King James Bible AV1611 speaks of CREATIONISM. We were all created folks and we did not evolve. We all have 97% the same DNA for a start off !
Also the Jesuits like to push another fraud called Futurism, don’t believe it. These Jesuits are sneaky cretins indeed! I have three things to say to the Jesuit Order. First of all you will not destroy the King James Bible and the Reformation. Secondly we see your anti-Christos here since the Roman Empire. Three I will see in the death of the Society of Jesus and their Council of Trent! Seems this pathetic Stephen Hawkings is nothing more than the latest fraud front as was Einstein. Please study how Einstein was controlled by Fr’ Georges Lemaitre, SJ. Why was this?
Because he was to keep two men out in the shadows away from peoples knowledge. These were Nikola Tesla and Dr Albert Abraham Michelson. The later proved Geocentrism along with Prof Edward Morley in the late 19th Century. The Knights of Malta then made sure Albert Michelson was under their control by Knight of Malta family, the Rockefellers back in 1890. Einstein was yet another fraud to front lies for the Society of Jesus.
The same Society of Jesus petrified of people realising Geocentrism was true. Einstein was nothing of intelligence as we note his feminine partner, Mileva Maric who really wrote the theories of relativity. What about what Math Professor, Hermann Minkowsi had to say about Einstein being a dunce? Don’t fall for false fronts like Stephen Hawkings and Einstein, they are frauds..
Why are there monkeys Lee ?
I find it fascinating that historically when nations step away from their belief in a Creator, as this nation has done, Example- God Creates man, man creates government- government turns away from God, ends up owning all informations by force, takes over education, suppresses truth and reality, the State becomes like a god, the state is desperate to remain in control and those states fall, collapse, dissolve, default… hmmm..
Why are there Monkeys Lee ?
We’ll see about your reality one day..
Brent,
If a wolf is killing your stock you aren’t much of a rancher. There are a variety of things you can do besides killing a dog. Why not do some research….or is shooting an animal your …ah, outlet?
Brave hunters in action:
“It began near here in this high-altitude chaparral. No sooner were gray wolves delisted in March than sportsmen in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming began locking and loading. Wyoming officials declared 90% of the state a “free-fire zone.” Hunters from around the state flocked to rural Sublette County to bag a wolf.
“Rancher Merrill Dana, 57, saw the results right away. Hunters aboard snowmobiles chased wolves across the early spring snow on his sprawling ranch. “The first morning it was opened up, they killed three up here,” he said. “Trespassers. We didn’t even know they were up here until we heard the snow machines.”
No reason to follow the law when you have a rifle……..
We have another King George follower it seems..
No reason to follow the law when you have a Marxist Doctrine..
Al, I see a wolf in action, I will shot him to protect my stock. I do, however, draw the line at allowing people free rein to ride roughshod on my land to ‘bag a wolf’. I do have a strong beef against trophy hunters. You gonna eat it? do you need it to get by? That’s another story. You gonna brag about the 10 point buck ya shot or the elk you bagged? sounds like you’re just as bad as the wolves you villify
Greg, would you define theory for me? I think our concept of this is very different.
Robert is not about to respond to an outsider.
Why are there monkeys?
My definition of theory >
Evolution, is unsettled “science”.
Man made global warming is unsettled “science”.
Environmentalism is unsettled “science”.
The Kennedy assassinations are settled conspiracy’s the perps are known, the evidence is clear yet it is called a conspiracy theory by the perps..
It is not a theory that this nation is being destroyed from within by agents of Rome, it is a fact which cannot be refuted..
Wolves will manage wild life all on their own, another unsettled “science”. Another assumption, a guess, no factual data supports the theory..
The Bible is not a theory it is based on factual scientific, architectural, historical, mathematics, prophecy, over 100 prophecy’s proven and counting, and not one error. The unedited suppressed by Rome 1611KJV Geneva.. The one Rome has tried to destroy for centuries and failed..
When nations turn their backs on God, they are destroyed.. You believe in dogma which will cause severe harm and suffering to loved ones of your own flesh and blood.. Freedom is toast and you support it over assumed science.. Theory which allows government (god) more power of it’s creators, us, man..
You likely will never get it while in the flesh, you will be raised up for your judgment..
Environmentalism is the enemy of freedom, a Club of Rome Trojan horse.. Once completed the resources they have protected, collateral in reality will be raped beyond all recognition, the communist nations of the U.N. know their is oil under America larger than under the Middle East.. And Gold… Unlike your self, and myself the inventors of this enviro dogma do not give two shits about wild life or eco systems..
I fought them, you helped them, way to go..
WOW: over 100 prophecy’s proven and counting, and not one error. Give us the list
It was clear and cold this night, and last, so I went out and watched the stars ; no new ones blinked on for me – any for you, Greg?
To place them here would require a post of millions of characters in order to back them up as well, just listing them will not convince you, you must do the work required to verify these prophecy’s to your self.. You must correctly divide the word of Scripture, you must accuire the purest version of the Bible, the 1611KJV-1922 Appendixes by E.W. Bullinger- available in order to do this, you then need the Strongs concordance, as well A.E. Knochs Concordance..You then need help from a person who can show how to decipher the evidence and understand the words and descriptons by Daniel, and others.. You must prove this to your self through your own efforts, as I did, I never believed these things on faith or others who I trusted who believe these things, Not one established church is proving these things, by design, (501C3) should ring a bell, that is a collar of control.. Chop your own wood, build your own fire, verify them for your self.. Quit asking others to prove things for you.. Quit falling for Romes “science”… Romes Well of Science is truth, littered with lies.. Here are hundreds below.. Not lazy are you..
A Woman Rides the Beast – Dave Hunt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5Ke7Tn3uOU&NR=1
One of my blogs
1. http://compleatpatriotii.blogspot.com/2009/10/bible-proofs-one.html
2. http://compleatpatriotii.blogspot.com/2009/10/bible-proofs-two.html
3. http://compleatpatriotii.blogspot.com/2009/10/bible-proofs-three.html
4. http://compleatpatriotii.blogspot.com/2009/10/bible-proofs-four.html
5. http://compleatpatriotii.blogspot.com/2009/10/human-spirit-article-in-all-five-parts.html
6. http://compleatpatriotii.blogspot.com/2009/10/if-you-wish-to-lose-your-faith-in.html
PS, the human eye is not capable of noticing a new star being placed amongst the trillions already there.. You just missed it..
Whew, Greg, you remind me of my mother’s ex, the one I refuse to admit to as a father. This just entered into a whole new realm for me, one I’m not liking in the least.
People with views such as yourself are one of the reasons why there are empty pews in churches today. But that is a debate for another time, in another place. I leave this discussion, for now at least, firmly entrenched in believing that how I was raised and how we handle the rare occasional problem with wolves and cougars is the right way. I don’t believe they should be wiped out. I believe a balance is the best way, a compromise from both sides of the fence. But as long as there are those like you Greg who firmly stand their ground and those like the environmental wackos that firmly stand theirs, there will be no compromise. None.
And I’ll stick with my NIV bible, thanks.
JayT, I have not nor has IDFG called for the wipe out of wolves only the management of the wolf. There are to many wolves. David Mech even testified to that fact. ( http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/wildlife/wolves/esa/court/dMech.pdf ) If the Roman 1965 rewritten edited perverted NIV suits you fine and dandy. I’ll stick with my 1611KJV Geneva Reformation Bible, along with my Hebrew reading mothers 40 years of scholarly and independent questiong research. The 1611 anti Romanism, Communism, Fascism Bible of true Freedom, which rome has tried to hide, burn, and edit for centuries, GEEEE I wonder why, it bust them cold… The Bible the Calvinist Baptist Protestants believed in who broke from European Tyranny and started this Nation on, based on the real ten Commandments as set forth by the Creator.
We tamed these lands we live on and Rome wishes to reWild them and Remove all of us including you.. Every established religion is under the thumb of Romes Universalism and Romes 501C3 Tax exempt status, blinding those followers into the One World Order Universalism Globalist Religion which is the Anti Christos Vatican Cannon law, and communism.. Good luck with the The false Christos Sun Worshiping Popes Idolatrous Temporal Powers over you and the Earth, his time runs out.. The Church of Christ is in the heart, not at some pew listening to a false prophet deal maker with Romes Universalism..
Until the envirowhackos stop bending to the will of the Club of Rome, the Iron Mountain Report, Agenda 21s sustainable development for the 21st Century, all out of the UNICEP think tanks from Italy under the direction of the Aldobrandini Satanist Family, and return to believing in the American Constitution, written by Calvinist Protestant men, return to our Bill of Rights, and decide to manage these lands properly under Constitutional restraints and recognize private property rights, we will never bend, or agree, I sharpen sword and practice shot, as thew day that we all come to blows over this nears SIR..
Good day..
Greg
“There are to many wolves. David Mech even testified to that fact. ”
I read the testamony of Dr. David Mech at the link you supplied and found no such statement.You may have interpreting one of his statements incorrectly, or if in fact I missed it will you tell me the exact location of the statement in his text.
True, I say there are to many.. He supports the belief that the estimations of wolf populations are low, as well he supports the belief that the hunts and other management measures are correct, contrary to anti hunting of wolf advocates, actually anti hunting advocates.. 1000 wolves, BS, 3000 likely..
“1000 wolves, BS, 3000 likely.. ” I agree, BS from you.
Greg
So in fact you lied about Dr. Mech’s testomony. Fess up.
Mech testified the numbers estimated are to low, more likely 2100 in 08 and up wards to 3000, those are his estimates.. I worded my statement incorrectly I did not lie. Mech means the estimates are low, I mean there are to many wolves. and there in fact are to many wolves..
Ready for another 100 Biblical proofs yet Lee, or are you still clinging to a life that is a lie, supporting those fake theory’s (Romes Evolution and other fixed up sciences) you believe in and that Gnostic Satanism crap. Come on Lee, Fess up.
You’re a Tory.
A little Biblical Math lesson Lee,
Daniel’s Timeline – Part 6 of 12 – Understanding End Time Prophecy/Tribulation Period
http://www.youtube.com/user/scutter4christ#p/c/3DD93625F1C78B1F/6/ZgmucR3bB1s
I’m sure you can fit part 6 and 7 into your precious time line..
How many little childrens minds did you poison Lee, Are your grandchildren ready for what is coming shortly, fess up..
You screwed the Pooch…
Wow, what a diverse discussion that has evolved out of this one article, since Feb. 28 2008. Greg, I love the tie-ins of “biblical truths” given by you. Just as you pointed out, about how many characters it would take to unveil and understand the over 100 God breathed prophecies, it would also take an extensive amount of blog space to truly lay out the complex truths about the wolf issue. We stand on the shoulders of the science and the scientists that uncover the “truths” in this very complex world. The wolf issue has hundreds of years of research, on many different continents around the world. And the conclusion is the same, without severely controlling wolf populations, they devastate wildlife and then livestock and pets, and humans and eventually cannibalism. I don’t have the time nor the patience to give all the points that supports this, but as Greg has stated, go and actually research the facts yourself and stop allowing your mind to pander to the Globalist’s agenda. Check out some of these sources: The Outdoorsman by George Dovel, any of Dr. Val geist’s writings on wolves, Alaska Science, Wolves of Russia, wolves in India, and Dr. Charles Kay just to name a few. Get informed and don’t let your personal agendas dictate against proven science.
Jay T, Right now we do not need the elk to survive but in the next couple of years after the environmentalists regulate & make decisions about other Global issues it could affect the food supply. The EPA will probably end up taking away your right to be a rancher and sell beef. Maybe this does not relate but just take a look at the decline in our ability to be self sustaining in the agriculture area. A lady the other day told me she is being paid not to grow wheat by the Govt. She said she went to work for them because she makes more money. Also, look at our food now its on the decline for sure with one Peanut company killing us and Tyson Chicken not treating there CHICKENS CORRECTLY. SOMETHING STINKS IN DENMARK! WHAT SAY YOU!!!!!
And that is the only purpose of the wolf, to destroy a valuable resource, the starving middle class will learn of this soon enough..
More proofs Lee ????
A quip by the great curmudgeon himself, H.L. Mencken, still speaks volumes: ” No one ever lost money underestimating the intelligence of the American People ” — only now there are more of ‘em.
Road to Rome
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2723273139398196115&hl=en#
Greg
I came across this in my wolf files of about two years ago, before I had ever engaged you on blogs;.
This is from Wolf Crossings.
Greg Farber
December 9th, 2007 at 8:43 am
There has been several very obviously HYBRIDS in Idaho, Im wondering are they all a Hybrid? What sort of game is this ? Most that I have watched appear to be the real wolf, Im just a little taken back at the size of some of them, Ive seen 160 pound wolves and their monsters, I would hate to have one, let alone two or three on me. One killed by the government trapper about 60 miles from where I live was 176 pounds, nose to tail this wolf was 6-7ft long.
I can tell you this, Idaho had 200,000 elk in 1995, Idaho now has less than 25,000 elk in 2008. And the Deer population is worse. Idaho has been a hunting state for 100 years.
Well I had not seen 160+ pound wolves until the last six years, prior to this at best 120, my own pet wolf of 14 years in the 70s was 115 and male. Still large, yet the larger Canadien is encredible, Ive seen 61/2? long and 3? tall wolves, now the packs I observed in Idaho near my home were not this large.”
Greg, I still don’t see any “proof” of 200,000 elk in 1995, nor that there were, in 2008, less than 25,000 elk. I also understand , from more recent comments, that your pet wolf was a “canadien”. The average weight of wolves from Canada released in Idaho was 106 pounds.
Paul D, my side of it has always been all about the balance. Perhaps that’s just a pipe dream.
I don’t agree with a lot of what this administration is doing. I don’t agree with a lot of what the environmental wackos are saying.
I do hear you about the government and big conglomerates taking over the small family owned farms and ranches. My cousins in Iowa are proof of that. The Government subsidised farming crap, my uncle in his late 80’s can make more by not farming.
I can see bits and pieces from all sides of the argument. My apologies to Greg, you are correct (like you needed me to say that) in that you did not advocate in so many words that you wanted the wolf wiped out. But it seems like that is your agenda by how you put things, so again, I apologize if I’ve read you wrongly. I still say predators were put on the earth for a reason. We were the ones who messed the balance up decades ago. Some feel it is us who should put to rights what was made wrong. I’ve seen the damage done for herds that grow unchecked without a natural predator to keep things in balance. I’ve also seen too much human meddling. The answer seems as if it should be easy but it turns out to be more complicated than first thought. I’m not going to pretend I know what is best and how to go about achieving that.
With out getting to “windy” I would like to point out a couple more things if I may. When America (American hunters and Teddy R) decided over a 100 years ago that our wildlife was a very important resource, it was the American “hunter” who got commercial hunting banned, and so the journey of wildlife management began. Here in the state of Idaho, we the people own the wildlife and it is illegal to destroy it. Jay T. you talk about balance, but that is such an arbitrary word. The balance to a “greeny” is much different than the “balance” to a “resource” manager and by Idaho state law, the IDFG MUST manage for high game yield period. That’s their job description given to them 100 years ago and it hasn’t changed. Yet, they’ve managed to fool thousands of hunters into believing that is not their job.
This is a philosophical issue, rooted in politics. Jay T,. I personally cherish and respect your ability to raise a resource for your own personal consumption and for financial gain, but would you deny hunters their right to obtain high quality sources of food just for political reasons?
Paul D,I would never, ever presume to deny hunters their right to obtain high quality sources of FOOD. Never. I come from Native American stock where hunting was a way of life. I guess I just have a personal problem with those that are trophy hunters. You use it, you have a right to quality sources. You use it to show off the head, it just doesn’t sit right with me.
Yeah, I know I’m a dreamer when I speak of balance, wanting it. Probably in my mind a balance is very different from the government’s idea or from a ‘greeny’. If the predators are decimating the prey, they should be controled. I guess I see the problem really lays with how one defines decimation? It sounds like the wolves transplanted to replace those killed off are of a larger species as well and I’m not quite sure how that makes me feel. Uneasy for certain. Wow, I think about it too long and my head spins, I won’t lie to you. I really do see your point Paul. I welcome the different points of view. It gives me something more to research. Thank you.
One of the think tanks behind the United Nations environmentalism is Alice Baileys Lucius Trust, once called Lucifer’s Trust prior to the United Nations, which was the League of Nations prior to becoming the U.N. Both changed their names due to a more educated world populance in the early 20th Century.. Their environmentalism model has destroyed the American Economy, and are destroying hunting..
I’ve every right to boldly expose it, I’ve every right to show my lack of respect and or humility concerning these truths, the only reason we have wolves is to destroy ungulate herds PERIOD, and I have watched them doing it here in Idaho for many years now.. The wolf was removed because the wolf cannot function among man’s villages, farms, ranches, the wolf proved this in history and is proving it again.. The object of the U.N. Agenda 21 is reality, and they intend to remove us from the lands.. I am sitting here watching my career melt to nothing because of the Agenda 21 Sustainable Development, which has infiltrated all governmental agencies, the Interior Department, FWS, Forest Disservices, and even at our state levels..
I have $100,000 invested in Hunting camps, Yurts, and other equipment which has been made worthless, I have $140,000 invested in mechanical tools for plumbing and heating which has not been used in 17 months.. All because of the orchestrated crashing of the economy by the same people, behind these wonderful rewild America agendas… All of this nonsense is straight out the Club of Rome, Agenda 21, UNICEP, Iron Mountain.. They planned this crap in the early twentieth Century and started implementing it in 1961.
Like I said, we are going to come to blows over this, these bed wetting environmentalist freaks are traitors to humanity and their own Nation, they are going to pay for their arrogance soon.. We all are.. You kick a dog enough times and beat him back into the corner, take his food away from him, finally he will commence to fighting you.. The likes of Maughan, Ertz, Cole, Rupers, and others are u.s. serf tory’s and traitors..
Trophy hunting has been over blown. Why the hell should I not put these 200 class deer I harvested on my wall, I killed them, I skinned them, boned them, had them mounted, and ate them.. I took a cow elk every season, and hunted big bucks, most seasons I never took a deer.. So what.. The trophy hunting excuse is just another tool being used to take hunting away from man, mark my words, you are seeing hunting taken away, and they will complete it sooner than most are willing to believe..
You have a problem with trophy hunting, I have a problem with Lucius Trust and the U.N. The Creator allowed me INDEPENDENCE, FREEDOM of CHOICE.
Lucius Trust and the U.N. want me wearing diapers and understanding when they say NO, NO, NO, your a bad human…
I hope you are younger than me Jay, the truthers of today cannot convince you, keep watching, because the enemy I point to will change your mind soon enough.. Their not hiding any more..
You have not been hurt by them enough yet.. Wait until you are hungry and cold, then you will know them..
“The governments of Europe, the United States, and Japan are unlikely to negotiate a social-democratic pattern of globalization –unless their hands are forced by a popular movement or a catastrophe, such as another Great Depression or ecological disaster” —-Club of Rome
They keep telling you who they are and what their doing… Can you spell orchestration ? The wolf is a political foot ball.. People that use animals for political agenda’s are the most anal, despicable scum on the face of this earth..
The Green Witches are those people… Their Trophy is all of us dead..
Jay T, when you state, “You use it to show off the head, it just doesn’t sit right with me.”, I presume you are saying, in effect, “when you use it, JUST to show off the head”……
But the fact is, is that not even the the most strictly trophy hunter can leave the meat of the animal, and they know that as well. The meat is taken by law, even if it is given away, to another family or charity…
I imagine that you don’t know any “trophy hunters”, since you have such an attitude, otherwise you would know that they respect the animal/animals as much if not more than any other hunter who takes game strictly for the meat. It’s a shame that you have such prejudiced conclusions, simply because you do not think it is right to pursue any animal because of it’s antlers…
The fact that you do not appreciate a magnificent set of antlers, is your own taste, but personally, I think that the hunter who goes after a difficult to acquire animal, has a lot more persistence and work ahead of him to be able to accomplish this. Maybe you don’t hunt at all….(if that’s what you’re saying)
I have hunted and raised cattle most of my life, and never hunted strictly for antlers, until after I had taken my meat, then I appreciate letting the less endowed animals go by, until one comes along that has better headgear….I think like a hunter, so I see the headgear as being special….sometimes even gives me “buck fever”…..have you ever experienced that? If you haven’t, then you are not a hunter….that’s OK too, but don’t give me the crap that being a “headhunter” hunter is less worthy than simply shooting down an animal for meat.
Or is it a fact that you are simply another “pretender” who would act like a hunter, or rancher, and who would simply add derision to the ranks, in order to gain more credit for the wolf lovers?
Jes, not sure where the attitude is coming from. I believe I’ve stated I’m open to learning. I see both sides of the issue. I’ve seen the ‘headhunters’ that come out from the big cities and are lucky if they can tell a buck from a doe. I am not talking about someone like Greg who uses what he hunts. I am not talking about someone who enjoys the challenge, and still uses what he hunts. I’m talking about the idiots who think they are big game hunters and most of them couldn’t find their own ass with a map and a flashlight. I should have made myself clear. I have a lot of ‘big city’ relatives in Chicago, New York, Detroit and they think they are so damn clever. It’s that attitude I despise so back down man, I fully appreciate what you are talking about. Same with you Greg, I know you use what you hunt. I know your attitude isn’t messed up. I’m not talking about you folks. Don’t go prodding me with a stick. I’m here to gain information, perhaps get a clearer picture of some issues that I may not have all the information about. And no Jes, I am not a hunter. My ancestors were. I do not follow that way of life. Don’t jump all over me, I think I’ve tried to show respect here, at least pretend to do the same.
Greg, what you have said rings so true regarding these organizations slowly eroding away the freedoms we have. You have mentioned more organizations than I knew of. Which makes this even a worse case scenario than just the EPA . Which the EPA is useful and needed but no one needs full domination because the outcome of someone or an organization having complete say so and becoming to powerful most often than not as history has proved time and again, devastating. Wow is all I can say. Right now myself and family r believers and we also believe we will be raptured. Some may scoff or sneer but I say compassionately take another look and search for the truth regarding Jesus one more time. Not thru your stepdads eyes(Jay T) I believe you said that. This does tie into the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT. I agree that it is an orchestrated destroying of our economy. Which is why I told JAY T that soon they will have us down to no Guns to hunt or protect. We wont have anything to protect our rights when we eventually come out of the Corner to start fighting. But I believe biblically that we wont be stopping to much of what is going on because this world belongs to Satan for the time being and it will be destroyed and a new heaven and a new earth will come of it.
Paul, my mother raised a believer. I do not sneer at the idea of the rapture. I fully believe it.
Jay T, you now have my understanding and respect, and I couldn’t think of a better reason for being here….
Now that we’re all saved, did you see the news tonight about the protesters in Copenhagen? They were dressed as the Apocalyptic four horseman. Their protest mantra was that if we humans didn’t do something to stop global warming, the things the four horsemen stand for would happen.
Gee, I didn’t know we had control over that!
Anyway, back to wolves and elk. Snicker!
Also heard, and damnit, can’t remember where now, some stupid talk about adopting China’s population control system because it’s us humans that are contributing to Global Warming. These are the wackos I’m speaking of. You wonder why anyone would take that seriously, but people do and that’s down right scary.
I think you may have heard that from the Canadian Prime Minister as I think it were he was saying that we should all adopt China’s one child law.
The best way to save elk is to cut back the number of hunting licenses issued.
Don’t blame the wolves. And Jane, there has been one questionable case of a wolf attacking a human in North American. And that person lived in Canada.
The bottom line is that it is time that the hunters and the conservationists realized that times they have changed. There are still plenty of deer for hunters as well as fowl. Maybe the hunters should change their ways. Conservationists need to educate the public about wolves and ways to keep them from livestock. Most ranchers would love some idea.
Quit killing wolves. All it does is create a backlash that keeps tourists away and costs business people dearly.
Greg,
You are calling a veteran of two wars a Marxist.
When anyone wants legally it is fine with me. But when they use snowmobiles, Sarah Palin allowed aircraft, and traps to hunt wolves it bothers me. Apparently, you feel it is fine.
By the way, why do you consider environmentalist your enemy?
al
Greg Farber on December 9th, 2009 6:42 pm
We have another King George follower it seems..
No reason to follow the law when you have a Marxist Doctrine..
big al
Thanks for your comments regarding game populations and wolves
Solstice greetings to all; we seldom concur but I do appreciate the dialog, and believe that all commenting here have respect for the natural world . Milt, thanks for your wonderful photographs. Special thanks to Tom for providing this forum to speak out about common concerns.
Hi big al. seen alot of what goes on in ak concerning wolfs? From reading perhaps. From being there? It doesn’t sound like you have been there. Getting around myths is difficult to say the least but keep reading this place and there are informations galore to look over. who doesn’t love animals, really? all people do and there are “off-beats” shall we say, but, all in all people Love animals.
the particulars with ak wolf managing is aimed at the indiginous tribes that inhabit ak. and their neccessity for game – they compete with wolfs.
no wolf is taken unless it is absolutely necessary. wolf numbers directly affect the number of game available so every one is trying to keep the balance. the planes and sno-mo is because it is the only way to get around. there are no roads to drive on and pull up and get out. no no no. you are OUT there by yerself – nothing else….
thinking hunters want rid of the wolf – period, is not correct. Kinda like; remember your elders – history is where the knowledge is about wolfs so start backwards and read it up. it is an amazing story.
Very nice information.
Are you a practicing Communist
http://candidconservatives.com/are-you-a-practicing-communist/
The Ten Planks of Democracy
http://candidconservatives.com/the-ten-planks-of-democracy/
Modern Commercial Code is Ancient Babylonian Law
http://candidconservatives.com/modern-commercial-code-is-ancient-babylonian-law/
Environmentalism is Corporate Fascism
http://candidconservatives.com/environmentalism-is-corporate-fascism/
The Ten Planks of the Communist (Marxist) Manifesto
1. Abolition of private property in land and the application of all rents to public purpose.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all immigrants and rebels.
5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralization of the means of communications and transport in the hands of the state.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to labor, Establishment of industrial armies especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries, gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of population over the country.
10. Free education (indoctrination) for all children in public schools. Abolition of child labor factory’s in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc, etc.
Bill Of Rights our founders created under the guidance of the ruling populance of America over a five year period (1787-1792). Back when journalists supported the people and Liberty and censorship was left behind in merry old King Georges England..See below.
1. Freedom of religion, press, speech, assembly. (Freedom to point to the fallacy of existing government mentioned above in the Ten Planks and to call its followers what they are, communists. Their Founding Father is Adam Weishavpt and Karl Mordechai Marx, unaware to most of them is communism is centuries older than they think.).
2. Freedom to Bear arms.
3. No forced quartering of troops.
4. No unreasonable search and seizure.
5. Freedom not to witness against self, guaranteed due process, just compensation.
6. Speedy and public trial.
7. Trial by Jury.
8. Freedom from excessive bail.
9. No denial of Rights.
10. All powers not mentioned reserved to states or people.
Now which set of rules do you live under ?
I’m building a blog showing how, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, and others used Green Environmentalism is destroy liberty, basically with fake love for plants and animals.. Environmentalism is the opposite of Conservationism.. It is Eugenics, it is genocide.. Only now the devil has caused it to go Global… Practicing it in little Marxist nations worked, Now the World !
Funny how all these Veterans fought to protect FREEDOM… DUH… How Free are we ? Why are Communists taking over the world via the U.N. and the Popers ?
Thanks for nothing Vets… You failed..
Now I take exception to that last bit there Greg. My Grandaddy was a vet. He fought hard so you could put your views up here on this site. So that you could spout what you believe to be the truth. You can still do it, can’t you? Don’t give me where it’s heading, we have eyes. But I have faith in the American people. And I say thank you to the vets who fought so we could be having this discussion right here. They didn’t fail. If they did, you would have been shot a lont time ago.
I take exception to Wall Street Funding Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, and Hitler. I take exception to Henry Ford, Rockefeller and others sending components to Germany pre WWII, and during WWII.. I take exception to FDR being fully aware of the Pearl Harbor Attacks days prior to those attacks coming about, thus forcing this nation into WWII based on deceptions.. My blood Kin fought in the Revolution, the War of 1812, the Civil War between the states, in truth a war of Northern Aggression, WWII, Korea, Vietnam…
I take exception to CFR run government in which that time since Colonel Jesuit Mandel House, puppet master of President Wilson, allowed this bank of Europeans onto this soil, and created this CFR which has tricked Americans into these wars of conquest for ROME… For Romes NEW WORLD ORDER, That CFR being instrumental in having thousands of true historical books removed from American book shelves from 1914 to 1960.. Thus explaining why you have no truth and live on myths..
The Communist Popers knew since the 1822 Treatise of Verona the only way to take down this REPUBLIC would be from within, as they knew and armed attempt at our conquest would fail… President Monroe of course answered those European Tyrants in 1823 with his Monroe Doctrine… Written in Part by Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams…
Veterans were duped, lied to.. and still are today… Eventually to speak out like this will get me shot… What will say you then you little Roman ass kisser…
Little Roman ass kisser?
Perhaps you have been feeding on elk that have suffered from wasting disease.
I am done with this conversation. Thank you for letting me air my thoughts and ideas and questions. I’m taking advantage of my American God given right, and I’m leaving this forum.
That’s the strategy, start wars and then cut and run…
This isn’t a war. You’re the type of person who sees conspiracies behind every government bush. You’re one of the nut job New World Order guys. No, the government isn’t perfect. Show me one that is. Put anyone in power, they will abuse it but you are so far out there that I just shake my head in amazement. Good luck to you Greg. I can’t imagine what it’s like to live in your shoes seeing all the stuff you see. I think I’d shoot myself to save myself.
To the rest of you here, thank you again for the opportunity.
” This isn’t a war. ”
This is a war, a war of information, a quiet war, it has been a war since the tree of knowledge..
” You’re the type of person who sees conspiracies behind every government bush.”
Utter nonsense on your part, first I have never told anyone to believe me, I supplied links, and many key words supporting the truths I share, the fault is yours wherein you failed to check things out for yourself.
Many people have thanked me for proving to them this illusion we fight against.. You never lifted a finger to disprove or prove me.. You just bitched..
” You’re one of the nut job New World Order guys.”
Once the elite Satanists operating via the SMOM, Knights of Malta, all working with Free Masonry and the Illuminati are finished creating their New World Order, The Declaration of Independence will be insolvent, no more, gone, over… FACT..
” No, the government isn’t perfect. Show me one that is. Put anyone in power, they will abuse it but you are so far out there that I just shake my head in amazement. ”
God Created man, man created government, government created straw men (thats you). Straw men are slaves, once you become a straw man you are putting God behind government.. Knowledge is power, people with knowledge keep government in check mate, thus keeping control of their creation..
” Good luck to you Greg. I can’t imagine what it’s like to live in your shoes seeing all the stuff you see. I think I’d shoot myself to save myself.”
I do not need your Irish Lucky Charms, we make our own fortunes or luck, I can not imagine what it would be like to live in the shoes of cowards who belittle those who sought and found real truth and knowledge, i can imagine why those brave men at Valley Forge kept on, because they new what it would be like to be slaves under the same enemy then which we fight today.. Those cretins trying to install Satans government, and of course they will do it, but I by GOD did not lay down for them..
As far as shooting yourself, if your Roman NIV has shown you the truth and Jesus has saved you then why would you shoot your self over a little truth issue, It would seem more logical to change ones mind about ones belief rather than resorting to a violent and cowardly self inflicted end, or demise..
He who stops being better stops being good.
Oliver Cromwell
I had rather have a plain, russet-coated Captain, that knows what he fights for, and loves what he knows, than that which you call a Gentle-man and is nothing else.
Oliver Cromwell
You have sat too long for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!
Oliver Cromwell -
Greg: 9.5, Jay T:2…….
dito
Shame that someone comes to learn something and you dumbasses jump all over him. That’s the way to win over people! Now how many do we award you all? Feel good congratulating yourselves?
Merry Christmas!
yup, u right. no need for my statement – no love in that; i repent
Harley, Ditto, thanks for speaking up.
Greg does not come to educate but to indoctrinate.
He never responded to my post of December 13th 2009.
I saw that in the posts he’s made. His way is the only way. His bible is the only bible. His way of thinking is the only way to think because by God, it’s right. I know Jay T, he’s a friend of mine. He’s struggled a long time over the issues that have been discussed here concerning the elk and wolves and wildlife management and so on and so forth. He didn’t come to get dragged into a religious discussion or a patriotic one. He showed good sense in leaving.
Greg said, “This is a war, a war of information, a quiet war, it has been a war since the tree of knowledge”
Listen to the children gossip about those who are the fighters…
A man rode his donkey into Jerusalem, he was a truth sayer, they hated him, they nailed him to a piece of wood.. When Washington and his men stood up and took this plantation from the evil Jesuit King George 97% of the people in those Colonies hid until it was over.. And then they came out and cheered for their freedom… 2000 years ago that man, Jesus Christ, said they will hate you as they hated me.. For speaking the truth.. Jesus Said there is only one truth, there is only one way to meet the Creator, and it is through me, Jesus Christ… He also said the many would never find the truth, only a very few would know the truth, during the last days.. Rome will shortly take the world under it’s full control once again, they own it now, and they rule it with and iron fist, covered in a velvet glove at the moment… The Whore longs to remove that velvet glove.. It can only be refuted by those who do not read.. It has been held in check for decades by those who do read and point to them.. The United Nations agenda 21 Nazi environmentalism is a Jesuit tool created by UNICEP in ROME to destroy the Declaration of Independence.. They could not give two shits about eco systems or animals… It is your freedom they hate.. KEEP HELPING THEM like the Maughanites do..
In the 2005 published book How Green were the Nazis?: Nature, Environment, and Nation in the Third Reich the authors explain the Nazis received a warm welcome by the existing environmental organisations as there was ‘an ideological overlap between Nazi ideas and conservationist agendas’. As clearly illustrated by the current environmental groups, personal liberty is gladly sacrificed for what is called ‘the greater good’. It is a well-known fact that most of the environmental fanatics care nothing for matters of liberty, gladly surrendering it to tyrants and their promises of ‘environmental sustainability’. As the authors state: ‘The Nazis created nature preserves, championed sustainable forestry, curbed air pollution, and designed the autobahn highway network as a way of bringing Germans closer to nature.’ Several nationwide programs were initiated by the Nazis as a facade to cover their real plans. The first, ‘Beauty of Labour’, was created in 1934 to enhance the concept of a comfortable and pleasant workspace for the German worker. In the following year this ordinance was followed up by a ‘Reich Nature Protection Law’ to ensure the worker could walk through parks without worries. Also, laws were enacted to control air pollution. Besides of the fact that all political opponents were deported to concentration camps, it was green and happy days in Nazi-Germany.
Lee,
Indoctrinator Indeed ! You have been indoctrinated with filth..
But the hardcore environmentalists who had found their champion in the person of Adolf Hitler were soon to be disappointed. By the end of the 1930s, with a World War imminent, Hitler abandoned most of the environmental pretexts he had used to trick the masses, hook, line and sinker, replacing it with a war-ethos of sacrifice for the greater good and ‘lebensraum’. If only a pretext, the entire environmental thing was an excellent beta test for measuring the tolerance of the Germans in regards to the propaganda efforts of Goebbels which had indeed proven to be extremely effective. Not long after, Germany was plunged into a war that finally led to her complete dismemberment.
It will not be necessary to further point out the many similarities to our own time, where any and every environmental ‘good intention’ is hijacked by the elite for the advancement of its own objectives. It is true; most- though not all- environmentalists love collectivism and are prepared to marry any regime that claims to work for a “clean and green” environment. That makes this group extremely susceptible to the arguments of tyrants.
Merry Truth every one
The damnable pagan Feast of the Winter Solstice—renamed “Christmas”—was once a forbidden holiday in formerly White Protestant/Puritan-Calvinist New England. Thanks to the Jesuit Order having “made America Dominantly Roman Catholic” via massive Irish Roman Catholic immigration primarily into the North, it was declared to be a federal holiday in 1870. And no wonder, for the Jesuits had created their “Holy Roman” 14th Amendment, Corporate-Fascist, Socialist-Communist, American Empire on July 28, 1868. The wicked Episcopalian U.S. president who backed the Congressional declaration of the new federal holiday was the drunken murderer and destroyer of White Protestant Southern Culture, President Ulysses S. Grant (below). In obedience to his Jesuit masters at Georgetown University, Grant would back the legal incorporation of the city of Washington, D.C., on February 21, 1871 making the city “Rome on the Potomac.” The limited, Calvinist Republic of these United States of America was murdered and replaced with an unlimited, Jesuit Empire composed of de facto provinces subject to the rule of an absolutist, central city overseen by the Jesuits of Georgetown University
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0192.html
.One would think that if anyone’s date of birth were remembered exactly, it would be that of our Savior, Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, the gospels do not pinpoint the date of Christ’s birth…Prior to the legalization of Christianity by the Emperor Constantine in the year 313, no universal date or even formal celebration of Christmas is found. For instance, Origen (d.255), St. Irenaeus (d. 202), and Tertullian (d. 220) do not include Christmas or its date on their lists of feasts and celebrations…On the more practical side of this issue, Roman pagans used to gather at the hill where the Vatican is presently located to commemorate the “Birth of the Unconquered Sun” This pagan feast was celebrated throughout the Empire either on Dec. 25 (according to the Julian Calendar) or on Jan. 6 (according to the Egyptian calendar). Although not proven with certainty, some historians credit Constantine, who declared Sunday as a day; of rest in the Empire, with replacing the pagan festival with that of Christmas. Interestingly, since the 200s, Jesus was honored with the title, “SUN of Justice.
WHAT DOES THE LORD SAY ABOUT WORSHIPPING THE SUN:
And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD’s house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that
they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. EZEKIEL 8:16-17
I wonder how many humans the Elite Satanists Sacrificed in the last 48 hours on those alters while worshiping RA their SUN god which is the Solstice December 25th…
Yea man, blinded non readers of truth, keep dancing with them, after all it is a tradition…
Don’t be crying when your country falls down either..
Greg has some issues
Lee’s Bible > The mother of the New Age Luciferian Dogma
ISIS UNVEILED:
A Master-Key to the Mysteries of Ancient and Modern Science and Theology
By H. P. Blavatsky
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/isis/iu-hp.htm
Her ” Infallible” Modern Science Rantings being used to this day…
Oh yeah, some very serious issues. I’ve read some of your links. And there are other links out there disputing what you put out and there are other links disputing what was disputed and so on and so forth. It’s an endless cycle. There’s one born every minute that can ‘prove’ his point of view. You believe what you want to believe and don’t cram it down the throats of others who believe what they wish to. You remind me of the guy who can shout the loudest, drown out everyone in the crowd because you’ve got the biggest mouth. Or the most links. Or the most ‘proof’ of what you’re spouting off.
greg; thank you very much for saying the truth and trying to get eyes to open a bit more. why are we pointing at each other and yelling? – Truth escapes if we have stuffed up our ears.
It is my contention greg has an amount of vast truths he has to share. Do not mock him if you have not gone to his resources for yourself. i am humbled by the truths he pointed out – that i did not know – but he keep pointing to truth and he is mocked for it.
And yes, sun day is out of time. and yes, we are running out of time. the ones on the edge will have their eyes opend by Him at last trump(et). the lost are lost.
Pointed out to me by Greg; ( i am grateful.) I did not realize – and have not realized in my 59 years my error.
A bit off-topic – but is it?
Both Adam and Eve were created on the sixth day, before the sabbath day, and so were present to observe the day of rest God created for them. Some will try to claim that the sabbath was a Jewish festival, part of the Mosaic law that was done away with at the cross. Since sabbath was established at creation as a memorial of that event, would that notion then make Adam and Eve Jews? Actually not a single Jew existed until the covenant made with Abraham, thousands of years later. The sabbath predates Jews!
Mark 2:27 And he [Jesus] said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
So the seventh-day sabbath was created for Adam and Eve, and all of humanity, not just for the Jews. Adam lived for 930 years (Gen 5:5), and undoubtedly was a sabbath keeper his entire life. Adam was not the only one of the first millennium to keep the sabbath. The same can be said for Enoch, who was born within the lifetime of Adam. Enoch was so in harmony with God that he was taken up to heaven and never died (Gen 5:24).
thank you, greg.
Whoever told you it (the sabbath) was just created for the Jews was wrong. This is a truth I’ve always known! I didn’t need Greg to point that out. Learned that from my, how the heck did he put that? Anyway, I learned that one in my Sunday school using the wrong bible in Greg’s eyes. So wow, some truth is being taught out there but when you listen to Greg speak, most of us are all tree hugging earth worshipping satan loving marxists who wouldn’t know the truth if it hit us like a ton of bricks or a stack of correctly edtiioned bibles. That is the attitude I speak of. If people are here to learn from you, don’t go jumping down their throat because you have voiced an opinion that goes directly with how they were raised. I’m speaking of honoring a vet. In Greg’s mind, they were misled. That isn’t the point damnit. The point is they did what they believed was for their country. Most of them anyway. To tell them thanks for nothing is, in some eyes, a dishonor and negates all they went through and this is what offended Jay T. Calling him a Roman kiss ass kinda went outa line. There are a lot better ways to get people to see what you so passionately believe as the truth, be it religion or about how natural resources should be handled. I believe Jay T was actually listening to some of what Greg was saying, exploring the other possibilities, respecting his views. I suppose in some minds Jay T should get over that insult or offense that he felt but that isn’t the point. If you truly want people to see what you are talking about, to explore the opposing views, don’t alienate them damnit! There were a lot of things Jay T felt he could learn from you all, even Greg.
Harley reminds me of the typical, politically correct rest of the ass kissers out there who get one rebuff, and run for their mommies…..these days, anyone even coming close to “giving offense”, is so “taboo” that it makes me sick…
What happened to real men standing up for themselves and their ideas? Did we start raising such a mass bunch of wimps that we lost track of saying what we believed in, because of what some blind ass wipe thinks? So we coddle them, and sweet talk them into deception??? That’s exactly where the concept came from….Politics! Politician who “can’t” speak their mind because they would lose a vote…and they can’t afford to do that!!! Hogwash! It’s time people started saying what they think, especially when they DO think!
That reminds of the old story of when the politician says “yes”….he means “maybe”, and if he says “maybe”, he means “no”…and if he says “no”…he’s no politician….
And if a lady says “no”, she means “maybe” and if she says “maybe”, she means “yes”, and if she says “yes”, …..she’s no lady.
Christmas cheer for all the farts and fellows, and may we all have many more….if the Good Lord provides them….
‘
Established religions and New Agrers deceive by pushing the New Age religion which is based upon the Ben Asher Hebrew Text. Where he deceives by making you think the Bible (AV1611) is the same thing as his Egyptian Sun Worship. This is so you’ll easily be led into the new religion and their way of thinking. As it all seems to make sense to the awakening.
The problem being that people no longer know the true roots of the Bible (AV1611) and true-Christianity from its start to the Waldesians to modern day. The AV1611 is based on the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Texts of the Old Testament and the Textus Receptus Greek Texts. These have nothing to do with the worship of Horus which the Osirian Pope would now love you to believe. Those aware will never follow the soon to be risen Horus as the final Anti-Christos Pope over the Anti-Christos system. Their desire of the full destruction of Christianity forced as the new age of Aquarius controlled by Satan or the Planet Saturn arises. Essentially the UNIVERSAL CHURCH, preparing the blind to follow the fake man of perdition..
Do not be deceived by the Arcana Arcanorum Rite of Atlantis and its five most powerful Papal Nobility bloodlines. These are Orsini, Somaglia, Farnese, Breakspeare and Aldobrandini. The later who openly boasts to Nobles of their being the Nephilim. Study their name origins tied to Persia and of course the Venusian (Luciferian) controlled constellation of Taurus and the Tau star in particular, named Al-Deberan. William Cooper warned us all about these deceivers who try to claim everything is of Egypt. All the big names floating out there who are alive and not in a wooden box like real truthsayers, are frauds, Pied Pipers.
My grandfather was in WWII as well, he came home and he created me, he pointed to the fallacy of those wars.. You will find many places with truths mixed with lies… This is hard work, my mother has been at it for 40 years, myself 30.. She reads Hebrew.. Many Bibles have been perverted.. You Harley and others don’t need bother with my sharing.. My message is directed at those cretins who shrink from it, Those bastards doing this to us all fear the hell out of us learning these things..
And the bottom line is this, most of my blogs include Congressional Globes, Annals and Records of Congress, and U.N. documents… The Club of Rome via UNICEP is deciding American land use.. I am sick of it… Get the damn books and see for yourselves…
When I go vote for a man I want to know he represents his voters, Not the Pope hiding behind his U.N. and his Cannon laws…
John 15:12, 17-18
This is my commandment. That ye love one another as I have loved you.
These things I caommand you, that ye love one another. If the world hate you, ye nkow that it hated me before it hated you.
Mark 10:27
With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible
Some Americans, especially Congressmen and JESUITS need hard Love.. Those Tyrants never stop coming..
Proceedings from the U.S. Congressional Record of 1940 discussing how the British have been subverting the American government.
EVERY AMERICAN NEEDS TO READ THIS REPORT! The fact is the Conspiracy to over throw this Republic is not a new idea, the 1822 Treatise of Verona proves it, the answer to that treatise which was the Monroe Doctrine proves it as well..Along with many war accounts concerning the war of 1812..But for now this 1940 Congressional Globe proves they pulled it off, Proves Americans, really factually and legally are Licensed u.s. Corporation serfs, have lived and illusion, in effect British Subjects.. Now how bad do you suppose the deception is today in 2009..
Part 1. http://candidconservatives.com/international-strife-part-1/
Part 2. http://candidconservatives.com/international-strife-part-ii/
Part 3. http://candidconservatives.com/international-strife-part-iii/
Part 4. http://candidconservatives.com/international-strife-part-iv/
The final half of the report is forthcoming…
Greg, in particular, jes, and ar are quite a team at putting down anyone who disagrees with their position.
Greg frequently ignores your challenges to him by not responding; just reiterating more propoganda from his viewpoint. Note that he has still not responded to my comments of December 13 regarding elk populations and wolf sizes in Idaho. 25,000 elk in Idaho in 2008? I think that is closer to the harvest level than the population. I call him on this issue, more data or desist
The average weight of adult wolves introduced into Idaho during 1995-1996 was 106 pounds. They were not large wolves.
The video below shows how the British monarchy took the power of America and turned the country into a corporation as did the corporation known as the British Monarchy had done with England. These people are blood line to the Rothschild and also to the Roosevelt heads of banking of the world.
Everything I’ve been banging out all in one nicely polished video folks. Download and store my friends, this is a classic and especially at the end. I would like to point out though that the Roman fasce with an Iron axe is in fact a symbol the United States corporation being continually at a state of war. This power makes the U.S President a dictator with no need for a senate. This is how the President can empower the EPA and then lick the Congress via the EPA power on a subject on Climate for instance. You’ll notice a fasce without an axe head on the Lincoln Memorial. This is because only the dictator U.S President has the real dangerous supreme power. In truth we know who the U.S President’s real covert controllers are and its those Papal Nobility controlling missile protected, Borgo Spirito Santo and their revived Knights Templar known as the Society of Jesus.
British Monarchy is a corporation / US is a Corporation not a Country
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Itvml2mgQ
Time to stop loving these Satanic bastards…
If Idaho has 25,000 elk their up in the Panhandle, we have wolves ranging from 85 pounds to 135 pounds in Idaho.. Go out and prove how many elk Idaho has Lee, I’ll be hitting those EMPTY winter ranges again trying to find them.. Funny how we could count on them being there year after year and now where the hell are they Lee.. Little herds of cows huddled up fending off your communist dogs..
I see what you mean Lee. Wish there was a way to converse outside of this forum with you
Well head on over to the Maughanite preconceived misconceptions blog and look for Barb Lee Rupers… http://wolves.wordpress.com/
Over to the communists blog..
Complete opposite of your views = communists blog. Wow…
Harley, that reference to the jews is a thrower….
they knew nothing of sabbaths until the 40 years in the desert with God. they had some 2000 or so. Since the seventh day, God has kept the sabbath. It is for (all) mankind. the jews were way down the road from first sabbath.
He taught adam; and thru the lineage to present day sabbath.
my reference is to the correct day God used instead of sunday which is the first day of the week which represents the first day God worked (and made light).
I checked most of every thing i used to hate greg talk about. because conspiracies interest me but the truth of things is evident – i saw what they write about and he is, for all i know, correct – you and i have been messed with big time and for a long time, even tho the intent on our part has been honorable with our men going to wars, they are and will be the honored ones, no question.
My “position” is in hope of offering truth.
Well, Greg, you have certainly reduced your claim of 175 pound wolves in Idaho downward. and where those 25,000 elk reside.; not the whole state but just the Panhandle?
Keep questioning, Harley!
Don’t worry, I’m sure he’ll find a link to prove his point Lee. And I intend on questioning. Unlike Jay T, Greg could lable me one of those environmental people.
Lee,
You are not credible, you dig up old bones and toss them about, a 175 pound Alaskan wolf is a reality and you know it, and it is a possibility in Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, and as well Canada, and you know it.
Where are all the wolves F.W.S. has killed over the years Lee ? Where are those records ? If the trappers are liars then prove it, a government trapper, and and IDFG field agent told me they have killed a couple 165+ pound wolves…
That is all I ever claimed and you know it..
I trust those two men.. They kill them, then turn them over to WHO?
While spending the last 51 years living here, 41 of those years traveling to winter ranges to see the elk, Southern Idaho Herds, It used to be no problem to find 60,000 elk…. Where the hell are they ? Where was that you live again.? Gresham out side Portland wasn’t it….
We had 3000 elk wintering right here, where are they ?
The elk herds are devastated by your wolves.. Wolves will not function in rural locations, and imaginary wilderness areas..
Landlocked elk via deep snows get slaughtered by wolves with ease…
Why don’t you bring something to the table besides your chicken shit lust for my throat…
Harley,
Agenda 21- Sustainable Development – Smart growth – Re – Wild – American lands, and the destruction of Ranching – Farming – and industrialism is the Agenda of the Maughanites – As well as Anti Declaration of Independence.. Environmentalism is the opposite of true Conservationism, and Freedom based on the Declaration of Independence.. Their god is science, “peer” or consensus science… it is opposite of the FOUNDING FATHERS Intentions for a free REPUBLIC… Which those VETS you defended fought to protect, so we and they thought… Yes that blog = Marxism..
This notion of consensus, and the rise of what has been called consensus science shoved down the throats of the publically indictrinated dupes believing in politically movtivated scientific THEORYS must end. I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you’re being had. Let’s be clear: The work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus. There is no such thing as consensus science. If it’s consensus, it isn’t science. If it’s science, it isn’t consensus. Period…
Just the over moderation of that blog proves who they are… CENSORING = Communism….
I am a lot more credible than you,. I have not lied about the weights of wolves in Idaho.
They are not my wolves.
I dig up no bones only that which you have stated on these blogs before. Just trying to keep you honest.. I know that their is a record wolf for North America that weighs in at 176 pound taken near Fairbanks Alaska in the 1930s. The largest wolf introduced into Idaho was 135# . So now the average weight of these NRM wolves is greater than those introduced? I think not.
I have read you comments on Ralph Maughans site and you have certainly toned down your claims of over 135 pound wolvew.
I have never made any such claims at Ralph’s site..
Show me the “peer” reviewed documented science which proves the average weights of Idaho wolves… (link ? )
We settled this dispute once Lee, you got nothing as usual..
As well you very eloquently got me kicked off that site remember darling.. What ever was your purpose in that action for the second time I must ask you !
You can blah blah blah over here, but lets kick others off over there…
Those U.N. Documents blow your world to smithereens and that is why that topic is taboo over there at the MISCONCEPTION BLOG FOR COMRADES..
ok, keeping it simple, can you answer me a question Greg?
What do you think should be done with the wolves in Idaho?
I mean, that’s what this was all about to begin with, right? About how wolves are decimating Elk herds. So tell me what exactly you think should be done? Not what should have been done, not how corrupt or one sided or blind sided the government is.
Sometimes it’s difficult to understand clearly what some people think here. It gets all messed up. Some say, hunters don’t want to get rid of all the wolves. So I just really want a clear picture of what you think the solution would be.
I think the wolves which were here prior to reintroduction should have been allowed to continue the natural re population process which was happening, whether those wolves were merely deep travelers from Canada or else where..
I saw wolves growing up here, Bear Valley, Red Mountain, Lost Lake, further South, Goat Mountain.. Also other people witnessed them, over to the Cape Horn and Valley Creek area, just West of Stanley, and having hunted the Chamberlain Basin, and floated the Middle Fork Salmon (Independently) wolf scat and track were observed by us… They were under the protection of the ESA..
I was not against reintro when it occurred and really did not see any problems, the original agreement was met and should have been maintained, now we are far beyond that agreement.. And the damage of over predation to those here in Idaho on the ground is self evident.. Especially in the Zones I live in, the Sawtooth Zone, 33-34-35-36-39 which I frequented for forty years and still do.. In fact I will head out very soon to all known winter ranges to photo what I find..
The argument that wolves caused elk to change how they think is bullshit, as a hunter of this area I know every single migration route used in this Zone during my life, and learned those migration routes from my grandfather, my family having been here since the 1860s. Those migration routes are still used today, only far fewer elk now, and mostly cow elk.. The cow to calf ratio here is under the minimum 79% for correct herd growth or recovery..
This zone has not had the ungulate carrying capacity in decades if ever, why would logical thinking people introduce a new predator to this zone knowing this, as well right after the 1992-3 massive snow which killed thousands of elk and deer.. We never witnessed a recovery from that and then we get hit by the 1996-7 massive snow year and had another die off, and then we start seeing the predation by to many wolves… On ungulate herds already suffering from those set back winters…
The original agreement at least gave ungulates the chance to prosper, allowing this over population of wolves to occur was self destructive, the elk paid and are paying, and so are the wolves as well, dying off, starving, fighting and killing one another, and where the elk are holding out there is and over abundance of wolves, thus FWS is killing them to stop from being embarrassed by the self evident over predation of ungulates by wolves..
Some are using this chaos to demand ranching be eliminated… That is just stupid.. We have a working system known as the American Hunting Model and it has proven itself since the 1930s.. Conservationists and Hunters built it and funded it and those are the people that gave us all wolves, not the enviro lawsuit crowds who built nothing..
Idaho is one real hard winter away from a wild life tragedy which will be a mess, a real wipe out.. Cougars will die, bears will die… And the enviro nazis will never get the egg off their faces… They did more damage in 15 years to Idaho than any other group of traitors in history… And most of them are either onlookers from afar or transplants..
Lets not forget this key ingredient; ELK are landlocked in these mountains by roads, fences, towns, city’s… You name it.. These are tame lands and have been for years, rural lands, including Wilderness areas.. Surrounded by Rural lands.. People, etc. etc. Ungulates are forced out of those lands and live among us in winter… Wolves do not belong in rural locations.. especially un managed wolves..
Those ungulates lost their massive migration routes in most of this state, and example of one huge wintering range is King Hill Idaho… South of hunt unit 39 across controlled hunt unit 45… As a boy working a friends ranch in that area the herds wintering there were massive.. In the spring I could fill my pick up with sheds… They were there eight years ago.. Where are they ? Besides a couple small groups, where are they…?
Their wolf scat..
Ok, let me see if I have this straight. Even before the wolf reintroduction, herds were dying off because of natural causes. You’re saying there have always been pockets of wolves in that area. The re-introduction brought more, un-needed wolves. But at the time you were for the re-introduction. Why? For what reasons?
And I’m not real clear on the original agreement. Now I would welcome a damned link!
because you keep referring to it. Help me out on that one.
And thank you for keeping so strictly to the topic and not branching out. This helped me understand a bit better.
The natural set backs we experienced during those years showed how fragile those units actually were, releasing the un managed predator over time has proven to be and error… I did believe the IDFG would keep them in check at the time.. And keep in mind the 850 to 1000 wolves is and estimate, CON sensus again, David Mech stated he would estimate 2100-3000, the point is there guessing… ( without looking at Mechs statement I am going off memory).
Especially considering the landlocked status we created.. Man is to blame for the un balance we now see.. Not just some men, but all involved.. The bottom line is those are tame lands, this Wilderness nonsense is just that nonsense, not that I disagree with the restrictions put into effect for Wilderness, but the definition of what a wilderness really is for me differs from the CON sensus. Those are tame Wilderness areas, and we cannot change that.. We created resources for our use, Cattle, Sheep, and wild elk..
Those resources are in dire jeopardy of being lost.. At the time of reintroduction I did not realize how out of control this would become.. The objective of anti Ranching, Hunting, private property rights, and even gun owner ship, which are clearly stated in U.N. documents and those Agenda’s for me, having researched them fully, and those elites involved, is perfectly crystal clear..
Now let me be clear, I never branch out, you do, I attack the root cause, you wish to push the discussion over to your opinion of the branch topic… The root cause being Agenda 21 of the U.N. Charter… Do you even have any concept of their subversion into this dispute over land use and wild life, SORRY, but they control it… Since you don’t know that truth, answer me this, IF IT IS THE TRUTH, should you not be wondering at what point do Americans actually think for themselves when these lands and wild life management issues are of concern ? In simple terms why is the U.N. mandating how our government agencies operate ? Your right, I take issue with them doing this since I never voted them that authority, did you ?
Now the above paragraph can be substantiated by Congressional Globe if you so desire me to provide it.. That is the number one reason Maughan blocks me from posting at his site… Those issues are taboo and prove we the people control nothing… He won’t even allow those links to those globes in his OPEN DISCUSSION threads…
Now look, I have read those things, Do you actually think i enjoyed reading thousands of Congressional Globes..?
The truth sucks dude… And I read things other people cannot be bothered with.. How the hell else are we going to improve our situations if we do not read those things which bore us to tears…
We never will..
Man is nature, and man has dominion over animals.. If man does not want wolves eating up his resources then man must be smart…
Wait until the belly is growling and tell me what you really think…
I like to try and give the benefit of the doubt in most cases, even for you Greg which is why I’m still checking those things out at this very moment. I honestly think people meant well enough but didn’t have enough information. And now some don’t want that information. A similar problem exists in most educational systems where people who have never stepped into a classroom try to make the system work. The intention I believe is good but we’ve all heard what road is paved with good intentions.
The process of retaking minds, is no east thing.. But what a challenge..
It is a sad state of affairs to see that our government school system from preschool to post University grads has so thoroughly succeeded in “dumbing down” the main stream population that they are not able to hear the truth when it is explained. They have been taught practical atheism so long that they can do no more than give the “proper response” like well trained dogs. Maybe that is why they worship a dog. Things Happen, well, not without a cause they don’t. Don’t close your mind to differing opinions. I always thought that open discussion is what drove science, history, politics, and truth seeking, how can we learn without it? Thus the very foolish Maughan Blog which is severely moderated, nothing fair and balanced there.. Nothing. And Lee supports that attitude her self..(She was successful in having me removed from there, even though i was keeping the conversation dumbed down) They can not look in the mirror over there.. Lee is a fine example of a forest service employee, feeding off of those of us who actually produce, while they slopped it up at the trough.. Show me one thing government produced.. Besides production via theft, and occupation.. She is not credible..
Most people are indoctrinated to believe in evolution and a bunch of random accidents. Put away all of your preconceived ideas about science and openly look at both sides of the debate. Why are scientists and professors losing their jobs over the issue? Could there be an agenda in the background? I encourage everyone to see the documentary from Ben Stein “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. Also read some of the books from Dr. Duane Gish and Dr. John Morris, And John Taylor Gatto, one of New York City’s most honored Public school teachers, The constant attacks and accusations against truthers will never change the truth.. It will just continue to prove the denial types desperation to run from that truth. The foundations of the environmentalist movement can be traced to H.P. Blavatsky, Alice Bailey, Margaret Sangor, Manely P. Hall.. And Lucis Trust, once brazenly called Lucifer Trust.. Regardless of those foundations, the majority of the movement was invented in UNICEP, the United Nations, these facts cannot be refuted once properly examined.. And I say this, It just further proves that American Citizens, corporate serfs in reality are not thinking for themselves..
Hey man, once this journey is over the Creator can prove to them what they missed. The enemy is a million times more intellectual than all of us combined.. How silly of someone like me to think I could whip him myself.. It boils down to identity crisis of humans, and the pro manipulation of those identity’s, it is fascinating to watch…
As Greg says, it is not against the ineffectual, unintelligent, that we war with….If you are a Christian, it is not an easy battle, and you will not overcome without having substance to your faith…and substance is gained by experience, and difficulty, and the ever present help from our Creator…
To give the Devil his due, he is not dumb, but arrogant…Just remember he was smart enough to take a third of the angels with him, when he fell..There is only one who can defeat him, and unless you can recognize Him within yourself, and know His voice, you will never out wit or overcome the enemy of truth, who is the undisputed master of deceit…
Greg and Jes,
You both need to join a seminary somewhere! Hopefully in another country. If elk could read your ranting, they would purposely throw themselves to a pack of wolves because they could not take it anymore.
I’m all for people hunting elk. But you two have more serious problems than worrying about wolves hunting elk.
John,
Today, it takes approximately $22,000.00 to purchase what $1,000.00 purchased in 1913 when the Dollar was valued at 100 Cents; that is a substantial depreciation in the actual purchase value of the currency.
You have a problem, it is called government waste leading to default.. Guess who and what the collateral is ?
Good luck..
Steps Toward British Union, a World State, and
International Strife—Part I
REMARKS
of
HON. J. THORKELSON
OF MONTANA
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Monday, August 19.1940
In this Congressional Globe which I posted above in the four links going to Candid Conservatives those who bother to read that item will discover the Congressmen from Montana describing a North American Union, a state in which Canada, Mexico, and the United States would become one nation.. Meaning the Constitution and Declaration of Independence would become insolvent..
Amazing how the educated become the persecuted, ” Don’t wake me up ” sniffle sniffle…
I apologize for being a good American and remaining vigilant by reading Congressional Globes..
Greg,
If you would travel outside of this country. You would see what a great place we live in. It obviously does not live up to your standards. So you have two options, get involved and truly change the way things are being run; or move to a country that lives up to your standards.
As for wolves, more people in this country right or wrong thing that they should be a part of the ecosystem. If it is really as bad for the elk as you say, public opinion will change and they will managed differently. Extremist opinions on either side do not change opinions.
As for the value of a dollar in 1913, the average annual wage was $1296. Most US citizens live better than they did in 1913. There is more big game for the average hunter to hunt than there was in 1913. So somewhere along the line, game management has improved for the better.
I’ve been outside this country and it looks familiar..
John, great places go sour, for a number of reasons…some are obvious, in hindsight, and some are not, because the observer is blind either in spirit or mind. The reason we both have something to say, is because we would like to awaken the mind and spirit to what is happening, and turn the tide of evil, both intentional, and unintentional…
If you do not work toward this goal, then you are part of the problem, not the solution… Hopefully, you are right, in that once people realize there is a problem, they will do something about it….(but don’t count on it, it doesn’t happen without someone caring enough to start the ball rolling and keeping it rolling) Hopefully, we are both simply opening someone’s eyes enough to find out for themselves…
There is no question that we live in an affluent country, both in terms of the game which exists and the abundance of material wealth, but that can change in a heartbeat, if this economy ever collapses and it could well happen if we let our freedoms disappear and a totalitarian bureaucracy run every aspect of our lives. Let’s hope that doesn’t happen, and work to see that’s not the case…..
You know $1296.00 silver dollars today would be worth 25,920 federal reserve paper notes.. So John, lets get together and go shopping, I’ll bring mine and you yours, same face value, $ 1296.00 each. Hmmm. You might get a tv set, I’ll give you a ride home in my new truck.. Oh, I forgot to mention, I get dealer discount on the truck.. a little licensing thing.. Real American constitutional legal metals minted up still are worth a lot more than paper… Shoulda listened to Jefferson I guess, he knew what he was talking about..
Essentially, people work for pennies an hour, but because they are fooled by the face value of the currency they actually believe they are making a certain amount of dollars per hour. When a $10 Bill has the purchase value of about 30 to 40 Cents then it can easily be seen just how devastating such a system of fiat currency really is, not only socially, but economically. It is not only the currency that is depreciated, but the economic efficiency that is depreciated, the power of a country’s currency directly effects the economic productivity of that country. As the purchase value of a currency is diluted through inflationary depreciation the economy becomes dependent upon the only power that can keep it running and that is the government’s central planning powers, but that can only last for just so long before its ability is also depreciated in potency. Effectually, we are a Peonage, Serfs who labor for little in return. We have a vampire economy where the government siphons off productivity in an effort to maintain the system as a whole.
At one time, when our money was actual money property, a person held Allodial Title to the money he or she earned, today we have Fiat Notes that bear no promise of redemption. Today, money is not the property of the people it belongs to The State apparatus and The State cannot keep the feeble promises it makes so easily. Politicians, on whole, lie and voters still believe their lies, that will soon end as the promises the politicians make fall on deaf ears.
Gosh John, ever hunted elk ?
Greg lies again!
Where did he get the opinion that I was a USFS employee? I specifically said that when I graduated with a BS in Forestry from the University of Idaho back in the dark ages (1963) that there were no positions available of which I was aware, for females in the USFS.
Greg said “Lee is a fine example of a forest service employee, feeding off of those of us who actually produce, while they slopped it up at the trough..” She is not credible..”
I have never been employed by the USFS.
My mistake then, I had misunderstood your statement, or forgot, and had been under the impression you had worked for USFS in Idaho after you brain washed those school kids as a teacher slopping at the public trough, as a paid indoctrinator.. Regardless of the error you would have made a fine worthless USFS EMPLOYEEE sucking on the teet of PRODUCERS… Not very god like of you Gnostic, talked to any spirits lately ?
Greg, you are far more likely to talk to or believe in spirits than I.
Greg
I received in 1991 the following letter for the University of Chicago;
“We have just welcomed a new class into the College of the University of Chicago. These students are unususally intelligent, highly motivated, and committed to using their gifts for serious academic work. We are engaged in teaching, just as you are, and we know that students do not come ready-made, just as you do. They have to have incentives and challenges administered with fine sensitivity together with material of real intellectual substance to draw them toward good scholarship.
Our students frequently tell us that they were influenced by a particular high school teacher. Someone who opened new vistas and realms of discovery, challenged them intellectually for the first time, or channeled the private interests into productime paths for growth. Contributions to the academic and personal development of young people rarely receive the recognition they deserve. The College of the University of Chigago has for the past several years , asked its entering students to help us identify and commend outstanding high school teachers.
I am pleased to inform you that you have been nomnated by one of your former students who entered the University of Chicago this Autum for our Outstanding Teacher Award. It is with both gratitude and admiration that I send you the enclosed certificate.”
ONE Student loved you, why that’s just excellence in academic indoctrination.. Swell Teach..
Gnosticism Exposed
http://www.youtube.com/user/AnonymousTruther#p/u/23/kzo8jx156n8
The Gnostic Matrix
http://www.youtube.com/user/AnonymousTruther#p/u/24/3NkQ_LLGzmU
History of Gnosticism & it’s Affiliations
http://www.youtube.com/user/AnonymousTruther#p/u/22/uTA4xXRQkgo
I knew you would belittle and smother the response with your usual proselytizing links.
Hey maybe you can get Tom to ban me… Worked with Ralph. You want to come after me, fine, I’ll hit back Lee… Every time.
Greg
I am quite aware that you insult at every opportunity.
I had nothing to do with your being banned from Ralph Maughan’s site, either as Greg Farber or “Stoner” which you insist was not you. He relayed to me via email that others also thought that “Stoner” was Greg Farber and that he (Stoner) quit sending comments voluntarily. Ralph related that he liked the specific information “Stoner” had about the region. That is the primary reason I decided that “Stoner” was Greg Farber – where you own property in two specific places.
I guess I’m just not sure how…Gnosticism…. pertains to this.
Gnos·ti·cism (n?s’t?-s?z’?m)
n. The doctrines of certain pre-Christian pagan, Jewish, and early Christian sects that valued the revealed knowledge of God and of the origin and end of the human race as a means to attain redemption for the spiritual element in humans and that distinguished the Demiurge from the unknowable Divine Being.
(Dictionary.com)
It’s and inside joke.. We spat, we make up, you know how it is.. ha ha..
Oh no! you mean you two are married?????
Now that’s funny!
Oh thank goodness someone found it amusing! That was the intent, a bit of levity was needed here I think…
I think watching this government and it’s blind “two party ” following is amusing, I bust up laughing over it daily…
I think it would be amusing to put four foxes in a controlled environment with ten thousand chickens and watch in wonderment the following debate between the egg eaters and the fox lovers…
Another one would be a fish tank, filled with water, and abundant population of gold fish, and 25 piranhas.. Another fine debate..
If wolves can manage their food supply then foxes and piranhas can to..
The electric power went off in the Wood River Valley Christs Death Eve and was off 20 hours or so.. might have been longer, Now the blood clot bitching by the dependents has begun… The dumb ass cowboys in the area fired up their back up generators while the super smart dependent weenies whined..
Amusing..
*sigh*
I tried.
Greg, do you have kids, a wife? Do they make you smile? I hope something other than the above listed makes you smile…
I am not trying to make light of the things you so passionately believe in.
I just wanted to have a brief moment in the history of this blog where everyone might get a small smile or even a chuckle.
Ok, now you can go back to bashing each other and debating.
Harley, I’ve been in both camps.. it’s all the same, their all divided, and guess who is not divided ? Our common foe, they are a team.. No human is going to fix it either… The truth does not depress me, or others like me, we thrive on truth, because without it we have got nothing.. The weenies start fights and when they get popped in the mouth they scream terrorist and point while crying.. I’m still waiting to see and honest refutation of my shared beliefs supported by Congressional and United Nations Documents, which pertain to the root cause of the division among us all, I hear whining, excuses, name calling, etc. etc. I see no one who really wishes to fix the problem.. Just keep going with the flow, those geeks with severe knowledge trauma must be miserable… Don’t worry, it is all ok, the tv and news papers are trustworthy, Darwin was right, and Obama will save us… Or the next Republican will… Unhuh… Americans stopped thinking and accepted a bit in their mouths… A little sugar on it…
Lord I may live to regret this but…
Greg, read in the paper about helicopter roundups of horses in Nevada. I admit a curiosity of your thoughts on this. I actually thought about you as I read the story. One one side, over grazing by wild herds. On the other, animal rights screaming the cruelty of the roundup by helicopter. And federally funded holding pens for mustangs that aren’t being adopted.
I have not payed much attention to that round up going on, a waste of our combined tax dollars as usual, I personally think they should leave the mustangs alone.. I don’t know if the mustangs are damaging habitat by over population or causing other harm.. Seems to me those Stangs were doing ok. free, who knows how they’ll fare being in horsey jail..
I don’t see the adoptions picking up either, the area i live has lost almost 50% of the population due to economical woes.. I have run across abandoned horses, and several people have given their horse or horses away.. I have eight head, one mustang working out nicely..
I have no idea what the motive is for removing them, do you ? Is it warranted ? Whats your take on it..?
I go back and forth on this one. I think, as with anything, it was mishandled as far as estimating the number of horses that can be sustained. Roundup by helicopter doesn’t quite seem fair. On the same hand, if there are too many, the alternative is starvation or becoming a nuisance.
The numbers are 2500 + on 850 acres. That’s a lotta horses to feed…
Yet at the same time, no on is adopting and you have like you said the equivalent of horsey jail.
These are the instances that make me shake my head and wonder, yeah, the intention was good to preserve the Mustang but it’s been mismanaged. I suppose this is an old familiar song and dance to you though.
Who is responsible the feds or the State ? That is a lot of horses on that small acreage, wow..
I have a hunch that if you or I were dispersing tax dollars then no doubt we could manage our lands and critters in positive professional manner..
Jumping the cost of foreign wars 600 billion annually in 2001-02 and maintaining 800 billion annually would be my first cut. Protecting my borders would be next, resources protections after that.. i just bet we could squeeze a horse feeding program out of that some place.. A better wolf management plan, and create a surplus of ungulates…
Maybe after the Zionists and Mooslims kill each off we can try it again.. Sorry, now I’m laughing AGAIN..
Harley
At one time Greg metioned that his better half knew the names of all the local birds; so I assumed that he was or had been married, but who knows.
With Greg’s attitude toward public employees, if he had kids he would possibly have had them home schooled and indroctinated the proper way.
It is not the job of a teacher to indoctrinate; physics, chemistry and trigonometry-advanced math , which I taught, did not offer opportunities to do so.
When kid I had a book called “Wild
Horse of the West” I read and reread it, all about the massive slaughter of mustangs in the west and their ending up in dogfood cans.
Comtrol non-native ungulates on western public lands. More wildlife for all.
Update on wolf hunt Montana 2009:
Juveniles weighed 62 pounds on average. Yearlings weighed about 80 pounds. Adults weighed 97 pounds. One wolf weighed 117 pounds.
Where are those monster “Canadian” wolves?
I read a book too as a kid about how ‘Wild Horse Annie” helped pass laws in the early 70’s I believe banning how the Mustangs were rounded up. The pictures I saw of it were horrendous. It was a fiction book based on factual events. At the time, it was needed. But now there are a lot of horses out there and the adoption method, while a good idea, isn’t working. I’m not sure what the solution is though. Guess that’s why I’m not a policy maker. I’m sorry, I diverted from the original topic but we’ve been talking a lot about land management and policies about wildlife and such and I thought I’d just throw it out there.
Ok… Lee, Greg…*ding* have at it.
And Tom, thanks for letting us have this space to hash out things. It’s come a long way I think from the original topic but it has been entertaining and informative.
And I am not going to clarify which part was entertaining and which part informative…
Harley – You’re welcome! In a ideal situation, administrators would like comments to stay on task but it’s not the nature of this beast, so I let it go. It’s all good.
People love their dogs. Horse meat made good dog food. Maybe there are too many dogs?
Now Lee – You are being a little disingenuous about the size of wolves. Now I know you would like Greg to come crawling on his hands and knees apologizing that he exaggerated the size of some of those “monster” wolves but you and I know that ain’t going to happen.
I think the “monster” wolves are out there and I think you do too. It is like any “monster” species, whether it be elk, moose, deer, or wolves. The big ones always get away and sometimes we are blessed with a chance to see the harvest of one of them.
I think the horses are “wild” and should be managed accordingly. Keep man in the mix and be responsible stewards while managing for all species that belong (indigenous?).
Greg
These give the weights of the introduced wolves in Idaho and Yellowstone in 1995 & 1996. The average for Idaho adults was 106 pounds, the largest was 135 pounds.
http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/wpages/1995idahowolves.htm
http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/wpages/1996idahowolves.htm
http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/wpages/1995wolftable.htm
http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/wpages/1996wolftable.htm
Even though the Smithsonian Sub Species Article has not been replaced by valid science to update that useless old science, we shall just imagine all wolves are the same species.. (BS) Alaska has a record 176 pound wolf.. Who knows maybe the scale was bent, or they put five gallons of water inside the wolf, who knows, and two government trappers, and on IDFG field agent did tell myself and others they have killed 160 pound wolves in IDAHO, two to be exact, according to them.. I don’t doubt it.. They also told me they have video taped wolves sport killing elk in Yellowstone.. They also told me they need their jobs… I once owned a very large wolf, 130 pounds, and I owned a 120 pound German Shepard.. A friend recently shot a female wolf, 96 pounds, that is a big bitch.. I have seen two wolves loping along the mountain trail in the FCW which were larger than my pets, and they dwarfed their comrades they were with.. Still I would only put 130 to 140 on those two dogs..
Now things are changing here again, we had the wolf explosion, seems to be dying off, I think they are busy traveling to other states in search of food.. Had this hunt been a year earlier i would have shot one of those, now i have passed up on four wolves, to small.. But I got time, and more snow is coming..
I’m a trophy hunter, and that is why you guys hate me, even hunters hate me, because I get it done while they dream about it.. I heard a man once tell me Bucks like this don’t exist.. Unhuh, well I shot three of them.. And I’ll shoot a wolf soon enough worthy of my tag..
Now we have settled this little weight discussion for the third time.. It really must chap your ass that all blogs are not CONTROLLED like the FAKERS Blog called RALPHS WILD LIFE NEWS.. The Misconception, preconceived, Bullshitters blog..
Head back over there and keep pretending like you guys control anything.. Other than what falls out your backsides..
Speculation:
Greg said: “I wonder how many humans the Elite Satanists Sacrificed in the last 48 hours on those alters while worshiping RA their SUN god which is the Solstice December 25th… ”
Fact
This years winter solstice occurred at 10:47 AM, December 21, MST not on December 25th. It is always on Dec. 21 or 22. The solstice, as an event, occurs at an instant in time when the perpendicular rays of the sun fall on the Tropic of Capricorn (our winter) or the Tropic of Cancer (our summer); other times of the year they are between these north and south latitudes.
This is like one very huge disfunctional family!
Happy New Year to all, be safe!
Harley, I appreciate your many comments.
All, have a new year that you will look back on with satisfaction..
” Fact ”
This years winter solstice occurred at 10:47 AM, December 21, MST not on December 25th. It is always on Dec. 21 or 22. The solstice, as an event, occurs at an instant in time when the perpendicular rays of the sun fall on the Tropic of Capricorn (our winter) or the Tropic of Cancer (our summer); other times of the year they are between these north and south latitudes.
The fact is you don’t know squat about Egyptian esoteric Occultism or wisdom, the celebration of RA begins and culminates during the time frame involved..And has several names and meanings.. It is all SUN worship..
Sources > H. P. Blavatsky, Manley P. Hall, chapter IX – The Sun a Universal Deity page 134… ” The Secret Teachings of ALL AGES..
Occult Theocrasy By Lady Queenborough and Edith Starr Miller..1933..
Morals and Dogma- 1871 by the late 33rd Degree Shriner and Grand Master General Albert Pike, Civil War era Butcher of many blacks and Christians..
Fact, it is a period of time beginning with the winter solstice and leading to the culmination of those festivities on December 25th..
A Gnostic should know those things..
Nor do I care to know squat about it.
Strange that the founders of the new age environmentalism and modern science such as the Darwin Clan, H. P. Blavatsky, Alice Bailey, Manley P. Hall, Margaret Sangor, Even, Orson Welles, the husband of Sangor, would not interest you.. Strange that you worship their idol, the Egyptian wolf head (SIRIUS).. Just examine Egyptology and notice all those wolf heads on the human body. The basic religion of those modern destroyers of Freedom, the Anti Reformation movement which took off in 1534..
” Nor do I care to know squat about it .” Not very scientific of you… Assumption, and misconception, preconceived, are the results of not following all scientific avenues regardless the definition of the “science” involved.. Especially the root foundations those CON sensus thesis started from.. Deception in the beginning means deception through out the modern era of modern science.. Oh the irony of it all..
To be a eugenics supporter under the guise of loving nature and science due to a lack of proper understanding based in research…
You should be very proud…
Nor do I worship any idols.
98% of most duped followers do not know they are being tricked into worshiping and idol, or supporting those agenda’s by the idol worshipers.. You support wolves in a rural setting even though credible science from around the world, science based on observation has proven wolves fail in rural settings.. The lower 48 States are to rural for wolves.. The elite capitalist collectivist monopolists cleverly brought forth this wolf program to destroy modern hunting, private property rights, ranching, and other competitive capitalist opportunity’s for their monopolistic selfish gains, your ilk is helping them do it.. Idol worship or agenda worship via support, same thing. Marvelites will eventually lose their jobs, as the elite monopolists will no longer need them, or the false agenda.. They have been used and will be thrown to the wolves with the rest of us.. Enjoy what you wished for, kiss your grand child and tell them how you cared for them.. by selling them out.
Greg, does that mean we are all romans? and Pagans?
I know we have a roman calender and made up dates from there.
To the people of the third World Nations which those Collectivist Capitalist Monopolists have been raping until there is nothing left to pillage, while we have enjoyed being fat and spoiled in this country, we are the Roman filth in their minds eye, and justice is on the way.. Those Collectivist Capitalist Monopolists have turned their greedy eyes towards their next victims, us..
Um, those heads on the Egytian statues are actually Jackals….Those represent the God Anubis. I think he was supposed to be in charge of the underworld. I know this because I was always facinated by the stories of mythology. Mythology doesn’t mean it’s something I worship or believe in, do don’t even try that Greg! Sirius was part of Greek mythology and he was actually a dog, that’s why they call Sirius the dog star. It’s part of the Canis major constelation I believe.
And it says that jackals are more like coyotes. Related to the wolf but not the wolf, just a smaller obnoxious cousin.
Everywhere, then, is what has gone on, these eons of time, where rome has been and left it in shambles. The same connections can be made to and thru-out the enviromental propoganda-ists. The list of her entailments is unending as I’ve come to realize.
We have been lied to to the extent some of us can’t see it. And blinded thru the educational system inch by inch over such a long period of time; history was lost and changed to read “their” story. That’s wrong, very wrong; america went to sleep as you have always said but not of her own accord. It was and has been a purposeFul act. I’ve spent a couple years, only, in history as you have suggested on this blog. It’s a terrible truth you have presented, greg, and it can be proven.
Our debate can’t be over what size or color the wild dog in the woods is. That’s distraction. The not-so-hiden agenda about doggies in the wild is quite obvious, understanding past history. It’s usually and almost always about something else. It happens too often, anymore, not to be obvious.
A dog is a dog is a dog, and those religions are in use today by the elites, the Egyptian Hyksos Mthra Greek, Roman, Saturnalian EL worship is the faith of the Club of Rome, the ALDOBRANDINI (Satanic) Family are the top dogs orchestrating this environmentalist chaos known as Agenda 21, straight out of UNICEP right off their front porch..
Saturn EL, Satan – According to them.. The ALUMBRADOS DOGMA which has been passed down through the Centuries is alive and well and ruling this planet.. Of course we don’t believe in it, but those scoundrels do, and they invent science, politics, history, etc. etc. there is the problem.. As well the ORSINI And BREAKSPEAR Family control Hollywood.. They are jackals, and they gave us wolves.. two legged and other wise.. Three top families of the Papal Ruling elite, these are descendants of Egypt, Greece, ruling elites themselves, Farnese, and others.. Yep those Pharaohs and Kings of Greece, and Rome, had kids, and their kids are messing with some heads, your ” American ” leaders are controlled…
By Rome, literally. The Devil is so smart.. But a small few figure him out.. Harley have you checked out Jordan Maxwell ? Michael TSarion.. ? I was fascinated with those Mithra Mystery Religions as well, so I learned to read them, and I have collected a European Encyclopedic, Masonic, Hermetic, Qabbalistic, Rosicrucian, Symbolical Philosophy Instruction book collection, for and understanding of these hidden symbolic and dialectical meanings because I realized those items were/are being used today..
I think the bastards think it is funny, people look directly at this symbology in their daily lives and do not see it.. Other collections of mine include books from the Biblical scholars of centuries past, last ten, who could read these languages and exposed them then to.. It is surprising how many 19th century American scholars wrote of these languages, and pointed to…… ROME. It was/is no myth, and it never went away..
I think Patton said something about studying the enemy.. Funny how Communism can be traced to Egypt… They used it, lately some one just dressed it up real pretty like…
Of course ar is right, environmentalism is merely a distraction, just like a wooden horse once was, I know it, but that wolf lie just irks me……
http://therr9.wordpress.com/2009/09/27/worlds-oldest-profession-religion/
And of course to those who cry about this being off topic, I say to them, not so. The foundational roots of the environmentalism movement, the 1966 Iron Mount Report, the Club of Rome, all those foundations created by Knight of Malta David Rockefeller, The Agenda 21 Documents written by Hanna Strong, the wife of Maurice Strong former U.N. president.. UNICEP of the VIlla Farnese which is the think tank for the Club of Rome, controlled by the Aldobrandini blood line.. Thus, Knowing their faiths and beliefs I strongly question their motives behind the Environmentalist movement, Agenda 21, Sustainable Development, Smart Growth.. etc. etc. Being introduced into this republic based on the Declaration of Independence which these documents subvert and pervert.. Having studied the Council of Trent and the 1822 Treaties of Verona and those Knights swearing to infiltrate and destroy any and all republics on the face of this earth, and knowing Rome never changes or deviates from her goals.. I then conclude by saying, why would any thinking American trust them with any authority over our lands and wild life ? Only complete and ignorant fools would do so..
That’s why i say it has become obvious if you keep the right reference in your head about where all this crap originates; and for what purpose.
Ordre Reaux Croix Martinist Order was founded by S:.I:.I:. members (Free Initiators) of the SRC+SRA, ‘Sodalitas Rosae+Crucis & Solis Alati’ a Hermetic Masonic Rosicrucian Order founded at the Vernal Equinox in 2003. This Order incorporates such initiatic systems as the Golden Dawn, the Martinist tradition, the Gnostic tradition, and the Arcana Arcanorum degrees of Memphis-Misraim.
http://candidconservatives.com/scientific-illuminism/
The Saturnalia was a large and important public festival in Rome. It involved the conventional sacrifices, a couch (lectisternium) set out in front of the temple of Saturn and the untying of the ropes that bound the statue of Saturn during the rest of the year.
http://candidconservatives.com/saturnia-italy-rome-is-the-seat-of-world-power/
Alexander Hislops book, THE TWO BABYLONS – 1853- A Biblical Scholar of the 19th Century pointing out the truth concerning Egyptian Religions.. Babylonian Dogma and its many fronts..
Of Course Saturnalia is Italy.. And what is in Italy ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Babylons
Italians?
Yo Massa the Pope !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_jackal
The Egyptian jackal, Canis aureus lupaster, also known as the Egyptian wolf or locally (in arabic) dhib (dhi’b) or dib, the name for a wolf, is a critically endangered canid found locally in northern Egypt and northeastern Libya.
Well huh! The Egyptian wolf. I guess that makes some sense.
Oh yeah, that guy! The Pope….See, I was rasied Catholic but I’m not any more. The Pope person is part of the reason.
But see, I was still right, Italy is just filled with Italians….:D
Actually I think their Roman Italian Nimrodian Saturnalian Babylonians, or something. ha ha.. Heinz 57 maybe.. The history is below.. Those jackals kinda look like our foxes…
COMPENDIUM OF WORLD HISTORY
VOLUME 2
A Dissertation
Presented to
The Faculty of the Ambassador College
Graduate School of Education
In Partial Fulfillment
of the Requirements for the Degree
Doctor of Philosophy
by
Herman L. Hoeh
1963
1966, 1969 Edition
http://www.cgca.net/coglinks/wcglit/hh_cmpndm2.txt
This looks like what was left out of our history books but no one noticed. Good grief, that’s just incredible where all the apostles went to and why. As i have said before, i had no eyed deer. way cool.
Oh boy, here we go.
Ok so I was poking around on this site and was reading different articles here. I am not a hunter. I’m one of those city folk. Admitting it right here. Ok, that’s out of the way. So I came across this picture of a HUGE bear, holy smokes! And he’d been killed by a 9 year old who has more stones than I will ever have! In my mind, it would be difficult to kill something unless I really needed it. Maybe I’m just a squeamish city dweller. I will admit my gut reaction was wow, what a waste. Look at that huge bear and now he’s dead. But I read some of the comments from a lot of people both for and against and I’m going to admit I don’t understand the whole hunting thing. So here, help me out ok? And don’t get all jumping all over me here. I really do want to understand.
Why do people hunt?
What is ’sport’ hunting?
Does it make you a better person if you use what you hunt? Or is it all in the challenge of a hunt? Kinda like, the destination isn’t as important as the journey kind of thinking?
If you spend all day hunting, tracking and come home with nothing, is it still considered time well spent?
And it’s obvious that you don’t think wiping out an entire species is a good thing, right? So keep the wolves but manage them so they don’t eat themselves out of house and home?
Ok sorry sorry, that is a lot of questions but I really want to know! And Greg, try to keep it to strictly the hunting stuff for this question. Tell me more about the marxist satanist Romans in another post ok?
Thank you!
Why do people hunt?
I hunted to eat, mostly taking cow elk, and hunting huge horned bucks, while passing on all unsatisfactory bucks, when I was lucky enough to get my huge horned buck, I ate them to.. Those monster deer are a huge challenge and most often they beat me hands down.. The myth that trophy hunting damages herds is just that a myth. I have watched massive trophy bulls and bucks lose fights in the rut to lessor horned opponents..
What is ’sport’ hunting?
I don’t know, I never did this..
Does it make you a better person if you use what you hunt?
I think so.. I cannot imagine not using my harvested game..
Or is it all in the challenge of a hunt?
The challenge for me was always the hard work involved, my reward was organic meat, and the out door experience..
Kinda like, the destination isn’t as important as the journey kind of thinking?
It is all a journey. Sometimes I got my coup on and animal and let it go.. Just watched them wander off totally unaware of my threat..
If you spend all day hunting, tracking and come home with nothing, is it still considered time well spent?
Of course, it’s about being out there, some of the best hunts I had were the ones that beat me..
And it’s obvious that you don’t think wiping out an entire species is a good thing, right? So keep the wolves but manage them so they don’t eat themselves out of house and home?
There are wolves all over the world, plenty of them in Canada. History shows us wolves do not function in rural lands scenarios. All of Idaho is rural, Wilderness surrounded by rural private lands is not wilderness, it is simply protected lands from motorized use, which I fully agree with. Wolves are super efficient at their work, to many will cause problems, they will crash ungulate herds, they kill the solo bulls, tired from the rut with ease, they kill the calves with ease, especially in these snows. Elk are a plains animal, these elk winter to close to rural lands at the edge of the plains, the wolves get and unfair advantage in this scenario the wolves of old never had.. Back then all they could catch were the sick and weak, not so today, they can catch what ever they want.. If the wolf functioned solo like the cougar or bear then you have a different story.. Packs are a team, they circle their prey and herd them into a tighter circle and then kill them, or they run them until their exhausted..
It is a land locked scenario and Geist warned it would not work, and he was right.
I was for this wolf theory in the beginning, now having witnessed the train wreck first hand in these mountains I live in, The more people like Val Geist are credible, and the wolves themselves are the ones disproving all myths used to justify this experiment..
When private property is threatened because of this experiment and land owners who worked hard at owning vast properties for ranching or farming or both are called villains and noblemen land owners.. I’m done…
That agenda is as unAmerican as it gets in my book..
For that response, you are awesome Greg. Thank you. Sometimes, on a forum such as this, it’s pretty difficult to get a good handle on people, particularly when they wrangle back and forth on issues such as these. I now have a much better picture of you. I like you better in focus! Not that you are here for a popularity contest. It’s just nice to get to know a bit more about you. Sometimes it comes across as you wanting to wipe out the wolves entirely. No, I don’t think you’ve ever said that but these past experiences have obviously left a very bitter taste in your mouth. I’ve mistaken your passion for something else. Thank you again.
And any one else here that can add to or give their own views,I would appreciate it.
Similarly, harley, i had little knowledge of, in this case, wolfs, prior to coming to this blog – and reading greg. He made me angry most of the time. It was my own fault for not being informed, in depth, as he has come to present here.
Taking nothing away from the author of these blogs, as he is well versed in this field and others as well. Much credit is due mr. remington and i thank him for his vast knowledge and open forum for discusions and learning.
It was easy to misread greg – as you said, harley, i mistook his passion for something else. Both he and many here, i won’t include myself, i am relatively new here and still learning, have knowledge others do not – from untainted sources and it’s discouraging to see and hear the rumors and untruths told over and over again and believed – for folly.
AND, the age of some of you; you are trophies for sure.
Why do people hunt? – Various reasons but for me personally, it’s heritage, something in my past to cling to. And I only hunt what I eat.
What is ’sport’ hunting? – I think this is a term often used by the anti-hunting crowd as most often when it is used it is in a negative connotation. Other than that, I don’t know what it is either.
Does it make you a better person if you use what you hunt? I makes you a worse person if you don’t use what you hunt.
Or is it all in the challenge of a hunt? – The challenge is really what it’s about or I like to make it that way. I’m not one to sit in a tree and wait for my game to come to me. Don’t like that. I prefer one on one.
Kinda like, the destination isn’t as important as the journey kind of thinking? – Life is a journey. Hunting is part of that journey for me. I don’t try to tell people how to experience their journey but I won’t hesitate to share in mine if asked.
If you spend all day hunting, tracking and come home with nothing, is it still considered time well spent? – Of course. This is more like the norm. I come home with “nothing” as far as game but I come home having gained more from life than anything else can give me. Coming home with game isn’t necessarily the only quest. It’s a bonus.
And it’s obvious that you don’t think wiping out an entire species is a good thing, right? So keep the wolves but manage them so they don’t eat themselves out of house and home?
Why would anyone advocate “wiping out” any species, even if it is poison ivy? The North American Hunting model has worked wonders for a very long time and yet, environmentalists want to demonize man blaming us for everything. Man has to be good stewards of our natural resources and we’ve done a pretty good job and our learning curve is still going up.
Some advocate for the “natural” wildlife management, because they don’t understand what that is or what it will do. It’s not a pretty sight and I believe it is irresponsible to even attempt to manage our wildlife in that aspect.
Harley
That was an impressive brown bear killled by the young girl in Alaska. I do not believe that this act occurred because there was a need for meat to eat which could have been killed closer to home in the form of moose or caribou, but I could be wrong; if not, I consider it as a sport killing event; father and daughter hunting together touches the heart. Being placed in a position to shoot a bear with a gun hardly qualifies as having stones. I really do hope they are using their bear and getting pleasure from such a magnificent animal.
Years ago in Montana I went ground squirrel shooting just because that was the way I had been raised in Idaho with two older brothers – the critters are not good for anything – just dig holes and eat farmers crops. I shot one and took my two young daughters with me to view my success – there was a warm body on its back, the heart, still beating, exposed. I never went ground squirrel hunting again – I had wasted it for what – to show that I could hit a target? Use cans or . . .
I started hunting because I lived in a small 14X24 foot cabin; had two kids less than school age, outdoor plumming, no car, and a husband who worked all week, who frequently said “I am going hunting this weekend”. So, one weekend, I decided to go hunting and leave him at home with the kids. I took the jeep across the highway and walked into the neighbors 500 acre woods. I walked slowly for perhaps 20 minutes, saw a doe and shot her – she was struggling to get up from her broken back when I arrived and finished her off with a shot to the head. Not a particularly satisfactory day but I was included in most weekend hunting trips thereafter.
To me sport hunting is killing animals that don’t need to be killed in order to inflate your ego. I don’t believe that Greg does that; he hunts and waits for a large buck and may take none.
I have enough money that I can buy all the meat, which is not much, that I want at a market – I got my 20 pound turkey for Thanksgiving for less than $5, Not all the USA populace can live on game meat – not enough critters out there; that was the reason for the great decline of game in the 19th centruy – market hunting.
If you spend all day hunting, tracking and come home with nothing, is it still considered time well spent? Yes, I was never fond of fishing but as long as it was stream fishing I got to walk about and see the other things around – like frogs, moose, mosses . . One usually pays attention to their goal for the day – are you after deer, mushrooms, fish, or pictures perhaps?
What little hunting I did was intense and interesting, it was not just a tromp through the woods but an activity in which I was aware about events about me – other wildlife not just deer.
I have not as yet read Greg’s responses to these questions. My computer was giving me bad implications if I continued downloading the more recent comments.
Harley,
I’m pretty much like Greg when it comes to hunting. I wouldn’t mind trophy hunting but it’s hard to be a trophy hunter with an empty freezer. I was raised on wild game and I’ve raised my family on wild game. You know exactly where the meat came from because you are there from the shot all the way thru butchering, grinding, wrapping and into the freezer. In fact last year the wife bought a roast from the store and it tasted like sh78. Even most of the trophy hunters I know will either eat the game themselves or give it to hunters for the hungry or people they know that could really use it.
I also live with the wolves around and it has made things interesting to say the least. Most I know are not really anti-wolf but more pro elk and deer. So when you’re out hiking especially thru the winter and find kills made by wolves that are not eaten it tends to make you cranky towards having o many wolves around. I know for a fact that the wolves do not always come back for the kills they make in the winter.
When you guys game hunt and consume what you kill, do you ever wonder about that wasting disease? I’m from the midwest and it was a problem in Wisconsin. Haven’t heard too much about it recently but I always wonder. I do very much enjoy the taste of venison. I’ve never had elk though. Some people around here in the ‘burbs and the city tease about being a ‘Bambi’ eater. *eye roll* Here where I live, there is a serious problem with deer and too many people crying no no, don’t hunt them! Like I said, not sure I could actually shoot something, but when there is too many of one thing and they are eating themselves out of house and home, creating road hazards and such, and really there are no natural predators here, something should be done.
Oh! and Lee, I go to the market too and get food there and I gotta tell you, I have these dreams of joining Jay T where they grow most of their food. The prices are Horrible! And I gotta agree with some of the people here, the quality of meat in the supermarkets isn’t always the best. I try to get to butchers vs. supermarkets. The meat seems a bit fresher, tastes better.
Your definition of sport hunting is what I was thinking of but it seems to me most of the people here aren’t into inflating their egos. That big bear, I’m still a bit divided on that one but I am understanding, at least from the adult perspective, the challenge in hunting down something so large. It’s a very complex kind of thing really. I suppose from people in each camp, it isn’t complex at all. You see it from your point of view and damn to the others but it’s complex from a spectator point of view.
Harley, hunting isn’t something you can explain away…neither can you define what it means, unless you experience it, yourself. If you can kill a fly, you can learn to shoot, be it gun or bow, and find out for yourself….it’s as much a feeling of being competent and independent as much as learning animals ways and habits, and appreciating the outdoors, where you are one-on-one with an animal that has greater faculties than you. Find someone you respect and like, to teach or coach you, and learn to shoot, first…maybe you will find your own explanation! And appreciation!
And don’t use the term “sport” hunting…I have hunted a few “sports”, and they were slobs…..no challenge..try deer, or hog or bear….and maybe alligators….
By the way, venison is one of the most disease free meats that there is…and fat free, as well. The “chronic wasting disease” is limited in areas, and any animal that is unhealthy should never be eaten, that’s just good sense. And even “chronic wasting” is not proven to be communicable to man….
When I get hungry I go hunt me up some grub.
Harley
If you live in an area with too many deer, I feel jes has the remedy; learn to shoot and go after some of the excess deer that are a hazard to drivers and frequently end up as road kills . With no native predators in your area, humans are a better choice than automobiles, as they can utilize the prey. Cars need gasoline. Venison is excellent for eating and, as jes said, I don’t feel you need to worry about CWD.
Another reason to protect wild elk herds and hunting, and the right to grow our garden, which is threatened as well in the bio-diversity report also… Can’t be having people growing their own produce dontcha ya know, that is not sustainable either.. Regardless the below article is a nice warning…
Yummy! Ammonia-Treated Pink Slime Now in Most U.S. Ground Beef
http://www.alternet.org/story/144904/yummy!_ammonia-treated_pink_slime_now_in_most_u.s._ground_beef/
Regarding a home garden.
We had a flood event two years ago which took out a fence along the creek and deposited a lot of orchard debris on the low sid of the orchard. A dump truck load of this material was brought next to the house and had a 10x
10 foot link fence dog kennel placed around it. Ithas been a great producer for the past two years with tomatoes, squash and this year peas, early, and beets, late.
A few years ago, under Heavy protest, hunters were ‘allowed’ to go after some white tail in our area. Hunting just isn’t allowed because its on Forest Preserve land. And so many people came out ti disrupt the hunt that not a lot was accomplished. Except a lot of frustration.
I do have a fear of guns because people use them to kill other people. I do need to get over that fear. If I find myself in Idaho, I’ll let you all know and you can teach a real green horn not to be such a wuss….
This wolf picture from Juneau, Alaska compares size of labs to the AK predator.
http://www.adn.com/photos/readersubmitted/wildlife/v-gallery/story/240088.html?/1521/gallery/240089-a1079680-t3.html
ar
The wolf possibly weighs more than either lab.
I once had a 1/2 afghan hound, 1/2 terrier that weighed 17 pounds and was as tall as my current 55 pound border collie.
Labs have chunky bodies and relatively short legs and a short coat when compared to long legged, well furred wolves. Gray wolves are 24-30 inches tall at shoulder; labs run between 21 and 24 inches
Take a look at the legs on this Oregon wolf:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef01157077d8ad970b-500wi&imgrefurl=http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2009/05/gray-wolf-collared-and-released-in-oregon-a-first.html&usg=__Y1bRm21iyDBpPbgcJiK9eM4BSYg=&h=332&w=500&sz=44&hl=en&start=7&um=1&tbnid=uFFNLbjM9cW5dM:&tbnh=86&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Doregon%2Bwolf%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:*%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1
Is that a mis-type about the size of the dogs? The two black dogs stand opposite one another. Possibly: sounds like something that ‘could’ happen. I thot i should point that out so there’s no misleading in comparing size for size, thank you.
Greg, the pink slime article would make me sick, if I ate those burger….I grind my own, and if not venison, ask the butcher to grind me a cut that is always cheaper and less fat than the pre-ground packages….
jes, the only burger i get is when I find a good buy, like $2 per pound on round steak or roast and have the butcher grind me up about 10 pounds to put in the freezer. I like rare meat and am still alive after years of eating these rare burgers.
A pair of buffleheads and three woodies on the very full pond today.
I have ground elk, I mixed it up with organic beef trimmings. And about 100 pounds of organic buffalo..
I want to invent a burger patty made with shelled hemp seeds.. maybe something else, (scratches head).. I avoid soy, don’t trust it.. I posted a link a while back showing the soy connection to cancer.. Not all soy though..
I made Lasagna a while back, I ground up organic egg plants and used that for my burger.. With slices of egg plant for the noodles, on and organic brown rice bed, onions, tomato, cheese, and my salsa..
oh shoot, now I gotta go raid the fridge I’m hungry..
Those woddies make me hungry…..the best of the ducks! Taste like dove, for the dark meat aficionado…
Now, Greg, if those were home grown eggplants, like my own, mixed with my ground venison, and homegrown peppers, and onions, and some garlic, you’d have the makings of my homegrown manicotti… Now, I’m hungry…..must be the cold weather!
Last year, when some kid driving a car too fast to see where he was going in the dusty road, ran over one of the deer I have running around my place, I was first on the scene and had a neighbor help me lift it in the truck…She came over for a dinner several months later, and had that same venison served her, which she raved about, and it was good….Only then did I happen to mention that was the redneck roadkill she helped lift in my truck! Gave her something to tell her wine and poetry friends about!
Now this is what I like! Man, I really like this blog…diversity, but heck when there’s food involved….
I don’t think I can get egg plants to grow at 5500′ elevation.. I’m stuck buying them.. I’m getting a lot of potato’s, onions, squash, tomato’s, herb lettuce mixture, Kale, Collard greens, garlic, dandelion’s, zucchini, and mustard greens.. That all fits up real nice next to and elk steak.. Gawd, i need a snack again dammit..
If you stay on this one thread long enough Harley, you’ll probably get financial advice, dental recommendations, automotive assistance and and probably recommendation on some ladies of the night.
Just learned a new way of cooking collard greens: (which I grow, as well) First wash and clean well, (three washes) then pour in a half cup or so of olive oil, then add greens, and cover. Stir often, and when they begin to darken, add a heaping tablespoon of minced garlic…. taste a few for tenderness after they darken and eat when tender……This is, according to another neighbor, a Brazilian recipe… and it’s better than the age old southern way of boiling…
Now, Harley, about those ladies…..
Um… i don’t have any kind of recommendations on any ladies of the night… sorry!
It rained 0.84 inches last night and the house pond is full and overflowing for the first time this year; 3 woodies, 3 ringbills, and a pair of buffleheads.
My favorite burger is ground from a lean, fresh pork rump. After residing in a freezer for a month any trichinella that may be present, highly unlikely anymore, is no longer a threat.
Somewhere I read that the dark meat on game birds is found in muscles that are used for long periods of time – like migrating ducks and geese, in contrast to those that only fly for short spurts – like quail and grouse.
Most veggies seem to suffer flavor loss antd texture during boiling
The way I understood Tom’s response was that the blog, not Harley, could provide info on “ladies of the night”.
jes, I left Maine because it was to flat and civilized. Florida is really flat, the highest elevation is 345 feet? Are you retired to Florida or did you always raise cattle there? If not ,where? Just curious. I know that Tom is from Maine.; and Greg lives in my favorite state – Idaho.
Harley – where in the mid-country do you live (I dan’t call it midwest because it is so far east of my location and no one has come up with the term mideast except as it applies to Asia). In my mind I have you placed southeast of Chicago, north of the Ohio River. Oops, I forgot Iowa.
Near Chi town. About to get whacked with a nice winter storm.
Glad to hear that you are calling it a nice winter storm – I always do enjoy extreme weather – except for heat.
yeah, don’t like the extreme heat. Kudos to Jes if you are in Florida. Maybe it’s the humidity. Arizona never really bothered me. I would miss snow in winter, lived here all my life. I like coming here, I’m glad things aren’t quite as antagonistic. When things settle is when I feel I’m learning something. Everyone here has something different to offer and they are experiences that are much broader than my own. I’m 44 years old and feel like I’ve missed out on some things when I listen to Greg talk about his hunting or Jes suggesting I try hunting alligators lol! Even you with the ducks and the different styles of cooking. I told Jay T you all weren’t that bad really. He reads but he doesn’t comment anymore. I think Greg may have gotten to him. He says it’s like a good hockey game. He prefers to be a spectator, not in the thick of the fight lol
I heard, before the four legged virus, er, I mean the wloves were released, that Yellowstone elk and bison were battling brucillosis. If so, canines that eat those animals will serve as a disease vector……..
The May 2007 American Hunter magazine, in an article by Aaron Carter titled FUR IS BACK, p. 19 extolls the benefits of trapping thusly:
“The International Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies estimated that if trapping were ended today federal and state governments would have to harvest at least 25 percent of the current harvest, or about 1.765 million beavers per year, just to keep beaver damage to roadways and other infrastructure at current levels. Based on estimates from Mass. (a state that banned trapping) of $75-$150 per animal, it would cost $132 to $265 million in taxpayer funds annually todo the job trappers are happy to do for free.”
Looks to me like the cost to Maine’s hunting industry has taken a huge monetary hit because of unnecessary confusion about the role of man in nature. We continue to try to control predatory diseases just as we should continue to control merciless furry four legged organisms such as dangerous wolves.
j.c. I think it’s fair to say, it’s not the wolf that’s the problem here. The real problem is the mis management by the government and our belief that it was being handled correctly.
“our belief that it was being handled correctly.”
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
Well… I was going by what Greg told me when he said he was all for the re introduction of the wolves, believing what he was told. I suppose I shouldn’t speak, there is no way I’m in any way directly involved with any of this.
Oh, this is an equal opportunity bitching platform open to anyone.
I think what Greg said was for reintroduction until he learned the facts of everything, which is I think what more people would think if given the opportunity to learn the facts, all of them.
See? I’m learning here. A while back I wouuld have been backing the wolves and the governement and the whole idea. It helps to actualy talk with people who are on the front lines so to speak. And I still don’t think the wolves are the problem if they’ve been there all along. It’s only when their numbers were boosted. Right? I did get the correct handle on that?
Saying wolves aren’t the problem is a bit of a trap or it could be. A wolf living its life is not a problem. No more than an elk living it’s life is a problem, etc.
Some wolves were here pre-Columbian times (before the Europeans). What existed to wildlife and how much of it is up for debate but if you look at on the ground accounts, i.e. Lewis and Clark, it was no Disneyland around here.
White man settlers moved in and pretty much took care of the wolves and did a number on most large predators. We can’t change history, only learn from it.
The reintroduction is another entire matter of which as been written about and discussed on this blog for quite some time.
The process required by law for the reintroduction was not presented in a truthful and open manner, in my opinion. As time goes on more of this is becoming obvious.
The latest being the issue of disease carried by wolves. Efforts were made by scientists to alert USFWS that bringing back wolves and allowing them to multiply beyond the agreed upon numbers, would result in disease that could be harmful to humans. That information was suppressed and now we have disease just as predicted.
Much of the issue is that had the majority of people been told the truth in the beginning, many more of them would have objected to the introduction of an experimental population of wolves.
The wolf is not a problem. The political agendas behind the exploitation of the wolf is.
Thank you for appropriately laying it down more firmly. I appreciate it Tom. I am by no means an expert, I’m just a person on the fringes but… I think I really Need to learn.
Harley
If you want another slant on the issues go to http://wolves.wordpress.com/
Greg has no good words for the site but he does like to comment there. See if you can find his style in some of the posts last year. This is based in Idaho, my favorite state for its natural aspects.
I am pro wolf and started commenting on the BBB in order to introduce what I considered to be more truth to the discussions. In my opinion, predators have a valuable function in the ecosystem and their current “management” is primarily for the benefit of hunters who want less competition for “their” game and western, welfare ranchers who run livestock on public lands. Check out why it is called welfare ranching. In my opinion, there would be a lot more game in the west if all the livestock was gone from public land. It would also be a heck of a lot more pleasant to camp, tromp, fish, hunt, . . . on lands that were not crapped on by cattle and sheep. Where are the wild flowers after a flock of sheep have resided in a meadow?
And then there are the native American bison which are being slaughtered every year when they come out of Yellowstone National Park because they may, but have not been shown, to transmitted brucellosis to cattle which are not even in the area at the time the bison leave YNP. Now elk are being blamed for the transmission, but they are not restricted to the park because they live all over the NRM and the hunters would be really pissed off if “their” elk were put under quarantine like bison. It has been suggested by one astute reporter from the west, Robert Hoskins of Wyoming, that the recently found brucellosis in Montana, came from rodeo stock not native elk or bison, The final autopsy report for this bovine death has not yet, after about two years, been released by officials in Montana. It seems to me that hunters would welcome another species, Bison bison , to their larder.
Undoubtly, Greg will jump all over this so that it will be burried and never seen again. He does that a lot also.
The Maughanite preconceived misconception we know whats best for forest lands blog.. Maybe, might, could be, if we could only steal management away from those who have had eight decades of success managing those lands we could do it better..
If some news is to ugly or truthful they hide it, ignore it, fail to acknowledge it, as you will notice Maughan has no blog thread covering the disease issue concerning wolves.. If any 30 year old science is mentioned well that is old and out dated, like the Smithsonian Institutes wolf species document, and they don’t like the records by Lewis and Clark.. They put down Val Geist, will Graves, George Dovel.. Those are just wolf haters with no credible points to made or allowed at that blog site.. But we stand by Darwin’s theory.. Evolution is the truth..
Predators do have a valuable function, but over populated predators do not have a valuable function near rural lands.. This false claim that hunters don’t like or want to compete with wolves, or predators is a flat out lie. We have done so since 1937, and the portion of actual predator hunters of the total hunting population of Idaho is at best two hunters out of ten…
And further more Idaho has millions upon millions of acres out side Wilderness area’s, without cattle or sheep.. And those millions of acres inside those beautiful Wilderness Area’s have no cattle or sheep grazing in them.. The truth is if you want to go walking where land allotments for grazing are taking place you must go out of your way to find them. And that is just what the anti ranchers pro predator crowd does..
It is a simple task to know where they are and avoid those places until the following spring and summer season, because they will not be there that season, (rotation) and the wild flowers and grasses are growing just fine.. Personally witnessed this for four decades.
I find all kinds of animal scat in the forest, bears, cougars, coyotes, the lethal wolf scat now, moose, elk, deer, Mountain Goat, Mountain Sheep, horse, it is all the same… I’ve seen moose and elk crap looking just like cattle crap.. Elk and moose don’t always drop pebbles…
http://www.freedomadvocates.org/
http://www.freedomadvocates.org/articles/illegitimate_government/sustainable_agriculture_-_a_relatively_new_globalization_process_20091215387/
http://www.freedomadvocates.org/articles/wildlands_project/tester_tests_the_waters_and_forests_of_montana_for_sustainable_development_with_his_destruction_of_forest_jobs_and_recreation_act_20091230389/
Destroying Ranching is WWPs agenda Period..
Marxism Destructive values ? or American Heritage ?
Sustainable Development lies ? or Our Declaration of Independence ?
I should add that Barb Lee Rupers made it a point to identify me at that blog thread as well, those comments of hers can be found as well.. She said I was not a friend, a troll.. blah blah blah..
It is perfectly fine in her mind to spread her opinions here at the BBB, but I, even though I did nothing to deserve it, cannot share my perspectives based on Congressional evidences at their hangout… I am blocked from their..
The difference between us and them is we stand up for truths, they only stand up for their agenda.
Lee wants me silenced.. I live here in the middle of this huge wolf lie.. Lee does not…
Lee, maybe you need to step in some wolf crap, loaded with Echinococcosis granulosus, in fact, I think you need to taste a little, just to know the difference between what is unadulterated crap or not….you must have stepped in some cow crap as a child, and had a paranoid mother blow her rip cord…At least you have a say in being on this site, not that wordpress would listen to Greg, with his passion and intelligence. But you, on the other hand are given a chance for rebuttal….Don’t you consider that one sided?
Greg, I loved you referrals, esp. :
http://www.freedomadvocates.org/video/watch/75_al_gore_questioned/
the story of how Al Gore benefits from the “Global Warming” baloney..
I can’t say too much about the wolves, or Idaho or the bison in Yellowstone. I can only speak from my own personal experiences that have nothing to do with wild life issues. I’m a teacher. I teach Special Education. And I have seen time and time again in the past 20 years of teaching,= people who have no idea their ass from a hole in the ground making decisions for those of us who are on the front lines, who know the kids, know what the parents are like, know the schools, the curiculum. And they insist on making the rules, those who have never stepped foot in a classroom. At least not stepped foot in a classroom in the past 10 years. They have made decisions for for people and more importantly, for kids based on, God only knows what. This lends more weight to what Greg says then all his links, though the links are very interesting. First hand experience is a real teacher, more than any books or theories out there.
Harley – My wife’s a teacher. Middle School, south side, inner city St. Petersburg. I think I understand.
I had an admninistrator tell me last year I shouldn’t expect homework from a kid, it’s part of their disability. What?? Ok, so when he gets out in the real world, is someone going to say, we don’t expect results from you, it’s your disability…We set kids up for failure, we teach them the test so we can get the results needed for federal funding. What a crock! I could go on and on but I don’t want my blood pressure to sky rocket.
Anyway, my point is, just because someone slaps the label of ‘Government’ on it, I just don’t trust it like I used to. There are too many people out there making decisions they have no business making.
enjoyable, harley. you care and have compassion for others. In the meantime, all our good deeds have been come against for a large number of years.
The following is long but the point is made shortly. I am all done giving anyone any more money – for any gd program they can think up. It has actually been proven these bastards are trying to make every one come out of school stupid and barely able to figure it out for themselves – thru lies and deceit. The biggest being where you pay your taxes, taxes, taxes, taxes.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2860538828528453481&ei=xLhFS8_zKIzOrALTkOG9Aw&q=Walter+Burien&hl=en&view=3#
If ya don’t know where your money all went, now you do. None of it went for anything good.
Harley, I’m glad to see you’re on the front lines, and have to be fed the same bull as the rest of us, especially from people who have never lived in, or experienced the crap they expect us to….You might as well get used to it, but keep a clear head and pass it along to those you have the chance to elucidate….Hopefully, in time, the truth will surface, and those to blind to see, will have their eyes opened.
It’s too bad that those same numskulls will not listen to someone like Greg, who lives in and amongst wolves, and has the educated and observant mind to be able to see it like it is……At least he has the internet, to be able to put these observations and reflections out for others to judge for themselves….unfortunately, most of those aren’t listening, since they have already had their mind made up for them by the mass media….and governmental agencies.
Strange that Lee doesn’t see things the same way, ,since she is/was a teacher too, but she must have kowtowed to the same agencies…..some people cave easily…..or just like to follow the crowd of public opinion…
jes, do you have a blog, yet, somewhere? You write well and from wisdom. I enjoy it, thanks. Maybe tom can recruit you to write ( I’d read it) and i know you got the humah! ha ha
Greg, these are the comments – I thought you said you were not “stoner”
Montana Wolf overseer surprised by high harvest
frank Says:
October 6, 2009 at 8:24 PM
Stoner is a troll. If you don’t believe it now, you will later.
Endangered-species lists may be broadened
Barb Rupers Says:
October 7, 2009 at 8:43 PM
SR25Stoner may be Greg Farber; not a friend. Frank said a troll.
Lee, I’m done with your trivial pursuits..
When we study on history, European in particular, we find that those wars over many centuries were religious, and people basically looking over the Fence (National Boundaries) and starting wars over wanting to control others from afar.. The blood of dead Europeans fighting over this control concept in Europe and Asia would run waste deep..
Now the states designed Constitutions, and then they designed the Federal Constitution, and the 10th Amendment in Particular was designed to keep this European looking over each others state borders and knit picking others properties from taking place.. That has happened to America since 1868.. The foundation starts there.. It is wrong.
These lands in Idaho belong to Idahoans.. We don’t need people from Oregon, (JB) Ohio, and elsewhere telling us how to run our lands, and we don’t need to tolerate those who do live here inviting those in those out side opinions.. And this argument ” Well as tax payers” we have a right over those lands is bullshit, and by god I am going to build a legal blog which proves it hands down.. We don’t pay taxes, we pay tribute, and we pay to help the Feds hide the deception in this fiat money system..
In Brief, here is why, you all know right now they are printing money like madmen.. And eventually we will see explosive type hyperinflation.. It is intentional.. But Regardless of this economic mess, think about this, over the last several decades, the real reason to tax us, was to pull back paper money off the top of the stack (us-ours) once a year to prevent hyper inflation, to prevent un educated civilians concerning real money matters from catching on to this scam to early..
Now we are in a place in history where intelligent people are starting to get it.. It was never a tax, and those ” taxes ” never paid for shit.. This government can print all the fake money it wants, why rob us over those decades… Think.. Now i am going to prove it, because I am god damn tired of this deception… In fact is has been proven, the source list is irrefutable… I’ll post the blog soon..
As far as wolves and elk, and Idaho lands go, the mess I see is amazing, disgusting, There is a cover up going on by state and federal agencies, and the few remaining elk herds are part of it.. IDFG is roughly 7 million under budget, they sent out 30,000 letters to non residents to discover why they refuse to come here to hunt, NO GAME is why..
All i can say to my enviro friends is keep pushing, this will turn into a bloody mess if you do not stop.. You people need to be punched in the mouth, and you will be if this economic chaos worsens, and we see food and fuel shortages… You want my lands, you want guns, well come and fucken get them..
Greg
You are the one that brought it up; it must not have been too trivial.
Why does this remind me of someone poking a dog with a stick…
Food shortages THIS year! Want to know why the media is not covering this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tomIBiljQdA
http://www.marketskeptics.com/2009/12/2010-food-crisis-for-dummies.html
Just like the 1992 collapse of Argentina, they did not believe the truth sayers until they were starving…
Thanks, ar, but no, I have no blog….I’m much less impassioned and motivated than Greg, and I think that he has more of the zeal necessary to keep up the good fight…I’m slowing down so much these days, that by the time I’m dressed to go hunting, I’m already tired…..Sometimes reason and wisdom do not provide the impetus necessary as well as an impassioned soul….
And Harley, lol with your dog and stick…..looking for the bite coming….
Greg
Name at least three NA tree species which have been virtually wiped out because of the introduction of foreign pathogens.
NA = Native American, correct? And… why is Greg naming tree species wiped out by foreign pathogens? Sorry, I’m just confused, is this from some previous ongoing discussion between the two of you?
Harley
Until I get a response from Greg, I will not answer your question – if he ignores it completely, I will. NA = Native American, correct.
Until then here is the next dog and stick.
Greg “”These lands in Idaho belong to Idahoans.. ( find the rest above)
You have threatened about this blog of yours for some time now – put up or shut up.
I have discussed this before with you – show me one state that has wilderness areas that compare to Idaho & Montana (outside of Alaska). These areas would not be there if the feds had not preserved them and you use the areas frequently. If it weren’t for Wilderness and Wild & Scenic River designation my favorite activity, non-commercial river trips with friends and family, would not have been possible over the past 52 years in the NF Clearwater (not a wilderness area, but it should have been) South Fork of the Flathead in the Bob Marshall, Middle Fork of the Salmon in the Frank Church, and the Selway in the Selway-Bitterroot Wildernesses, the upper and lower Main Salmon and Hells Canyon on the Snake River in Wild Rivers designation..
To me, the only reason Idaho is a great state is because of its national lands. It certainly isn’t because of the populace.
You are arrogant , or perhaps provincial, to say to me that because I no longer live there I should not be involved in Idaho’s affairs.
And to continue the trivia dialog:
Barb Rupers Says:
October 7, 2009 at 8:43 PM
SR25Stoner may be Greg Farber; not a friend. Frank said a troll.
Ralph Maughan Says:
October 7, 2009 at 10:21 PM
Thanks Barb, but I don’t think SR25Stoner is Greg Farber.
Farber, whom I had never met, just couldn’t contain himself. From his first comment, it was clear he was going to tell everyone on this blog just what he thought of them, and me especially.
When I booted him, he posted for a while to another blog and got nastier still.
Stoner often makes sense it seems to me. He doesn’t seem to have a chip on his shoulder, and he knows the backcountry. That always impresses me.
Farber also had a different cadence in his writing.”
Greg, the fox, at work
Check this out if you think that there are lots of areas that are free of livestock in the west on public lands.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.landsinfo.org/sierraclub/grazing/idaho.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sierraclub.org/grazing/where/&usg=__g-HbaqynU-jk0GaHDCyfbUoGhqM=&h=3006&w=2256&sz=744&hl=en&start=35&um=1&tbnid=tdnORcJSHgamyM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=113&prev=/images%3Fq%3DBLM,%2BNational%2Bforest%2Band%2BNational%2Bgrassland%2Bgrazing%2BAllotments%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:*%26sa%3DN%26start%3D21%26um%3D1
Rebuttle?
I have never offered in the past to post legal items concerning the tax fraud perpetrated upon the American people.. The proof I will present will be from Supreme Court rulings, and U.S. Congressional Evidence as well as the law Library, and the Library of Congress.. I have all the data and have been totally in the know concerning that issue for twenty years. There in fact is no law which states the American people must pay income taxes.. it is a contractual agreement, once a person signs that contractual agreement it is a major bitch to nullify that contract.. By joining into this agreement you help the government create a straw man.. A corporation non real person.. A non sovereign. It is very complex. The taxes are nothing more than a once per year clean up to hide the scam of creating money from thin air.. Fiat fake currency is a product and like any other product if every one has tons of it it is worthless..
As far as my “provincial arrogance” upon further study you might find that accusation more fitting being aimed at nosy meddling outsiders.. See the Tenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution…
I do not give a damn about trees which are already gone..
NO INCOME TAX LAW FORMER “IRS” AGENT JOE BANNISTER PART 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKePl2gW_3M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7Qv_j-Y0nE&feature=related
The fact is the federal government has no business in any state and neither do other states private citizens, sovereign or other wise.. The state of Idaho is her people, and the state lands belong to Idahoans, PERIOD.
It is time for the tenth amendment and Nullification. Nullification is the idea that the people of the several States entered into a contract called the Constitution where the Federal Government was granted specific powers, most of which are found in Article One Section Eight. And that the states had not only a right, but an obligation to interpose or nullify laws passed by the Federal Government that go beyond those powers, and infringe upon the rights of “we the people”. This idea is clearly spelled out by the Tenth Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. As well the federal usurper of States rights has indoctrinated the people into believing they all have a stake in each others back yards, this lie only supports the larger lie, and the Constitutional Violation taking place by the Federal usurper.. The Constitution is CLEAR on this issue and the authors were CLEAR on the issue, since the Federal government is trespassing and meddling, so is a person from Ohio, or Oregon…
“It may safely be received as an axiom in our political system, that the State governments will, in all possible contingencies, afford complete security against invasions of the public liberty by the national authority.” Alexander Hamilton Federalist Papers 28
“The local or municipal authorities form distinct and independent portions of the supremacy, no more subject, within their respective spheres, to the general authority than the general authority is subject to them, within its own sphere.” James Madison Federalist Papers 39
“The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite.” James Madison Federalist Papers 45
“Hence, a double security arises to the rights of the people. The different governments will control each other; at the same time that each will be controlled by itself.” James Madison Federalist Papers 51
“We may safely rely on the disposition of the state legislatures to erect barriers against the encroachments of the national authority.” Alexander Hamilton Federalist Papers 85
The Doctrine of Nullification was first introduced in 1798 in the Kentucky Resolution, written by Thomas Jefferson, and the Virginia resolution, written by James Madison. These were in response to the “Alien” and Sedition acts”. I urge you to read these resolutions, and I brought a few copies of the pocket constitution put out by the Campaign for Liberty which includes both. And in case you didn’t know, the “Alien and Sedition” acts among other things made it illegal to criticize the Government. This doctrine was later adopted by Massachusetts and Wisconsin to nullify parts of the “Fugitive Slave ACT”, and by South Carolina to nullify a tariff they believed harmful to their state economy, and by the New England states in response to embargos.
‘What about the “Supremacy clause”?’ The one that states the Federal Government is the Supreme law of the land.
1997 http://arizona.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/11/the-states-can-stop-obama/ the US” Where two County Sheriffs sued the Federal Government over the Brady Bill. This was a law that forced county Sheriffs to run background check on their citizens who bought handguns at the expense of the county, and any sheriff who did not comply with this law would be subject to arrest. These sheriffs argued that this law violated the tenth amendment. This case was heard and ultimately won before the Supreme Court.
Justice Scalia writes for the majority, “…the Constitution’s conferral upon Congress of not all governmental powers, but only discreet, enumerated ones.” And in a direct challenge to this interpretation of the Supremacy clause, he writes, “It is incontestable that the Constitution established a system of dual sovereignty” he also states “This separation of the two spheres is one of the constitution’s structural protections of liberty. Just as the separation and independence of the coordinate branches of the federal government serve to prevent the accumulation of excessive power in any one branch, a healthy balance of power between the States and the Federal Government will reduce the risk of tyranny and abuse from either front.”
But there is really a supremacy clause, and it states:
“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land.” This clearly states the Constitution and laws that carry out, follow and continue the Constitution are the Supreme Law of the land.
*heads for the fall out shelter* This is bigger than a stick poked dog…
You know, in retrospect, both Lee and Greg are right in some regards….we need extreme positions taken in order to see the reasons for our thinking.
I can agree with Lee in that without the federal government, we would have little or nothing in the way of lands which are “unspoiled” (the word is questionable, since all land is spoiled, if man is to be there at all, even to appreciate it) . Let’s just say “undeveloped”…..since here in Florida we have the story of almost all the countryside being developed except that which has been taken by the federal government….albeit, state and local (county) governments have now started the same programs to preserve natural lands, to preserve the water, and forests and wildlife…the rest is going to hell with McDonalds strip malls, and surburban blight.
And in respect to Greg and the principles which have kept us in a balance of freedom and prosperity throughout the development of this country, I say that yes, it is true, the federal government has overstepped it’s bounds, and is trampling upon the principles upon which it is based…and there is no question that many of our “rights” are going to be left in the trash heap of freedom, which is the roadside waste of those who have learned to avoid the responsibility of freedom, and have turned their back on principle……and don’t know the meaning of the word.
If we take the extreme position of either one, we deny the benefits of both….and there ARE benefits of both.,,and there are benefits to seeing the reasons for the extreme…(if we look for the principles and reason underlying their thinking) and I, for one, have learned from observing…..
Greg, I don’t think we’re ever “going back” to the days of “pre-14 amendment”, but I do believe that if we are able to know the reasons for the “founding fathers of freedom”, that will help us in our quest for the future freedoms we will need so dearly,,.and without knowing their directions, we are lost in the quagmire of bureaucracy….and may the Lord help us if we ever become accustomed to that!
Fact is, we need His help anyway…..even to draw breath.
All through this issue and twenty three decades the major set back has been greed. Man shoots his own sovereignty dead. I believe the state governments eventually come around to responsibility, But the Hegelian influence has been instrumental at all political levels for at least 12 decades, state governments have been infiltrated by political agents for the purpose of creating state governed error, which then brought forth a reaction, and the convenient solution ended up being federal government intervention.. Problem – Reaction – Solution.. Which has led us to this point in time, which is planned, and has been on the planning table for about 15-19 decades.. Pikes 1870 letter proves that out.. The next step of the synthesis will be presented one day, well the federal government is acting irresponsibly now we need World Government.. Alas, we have the U.N. already helping us out and that agency is just sorta idling along… Don’t fear the U.N is here.. Smells like and eighth King to me.. And the end result is conquest by willing surrender, they are using resources protection as their Trojan Horse now. Now myth or historical fact that Trojan Horse story presents a few folks who stood at the gate and mentioned this nice horsey statue of wood has a bad smell about it.. Oh don’t be silly they were told, now lets break out the wine and fire up the band… Of course we can not stop it, but we can slow it up, and we do not have to except it, especially when we know what it is.. The best way to take us down is to get us a civil war going on, right now it is just words.. That will change, we will bleed ourselves over this…Again. And the same crew what did it to us in 1861 is behind this one to..
Hey Jes, I myself do not like to give out exact locations lol but I’m wondering in general where are you in Florida? I have a son who will be coming to your state in… oh…5 weeks or so. He’ll be in Pensacola.
I’m down in the Gainesville area, out past suburbia, but it’s moving in every year…Seasons are mostly closing this weekend and the next down here, and the fishing is pretty much gone, at least on the coasts, but come spring…..Turkeys! And Gulf fishing! Yeah! ….Anything I can help with, just say…
Thank you for that! Not sure how much time he’ll have for himself. He’ll be there for Navy. Thankfully they have taught him how to use and respect a gun. Maybe he can teach his mom so she isn’t so leary of firearms. Another downside to living so close to a major city. Guns get a bad rap because of all the idiots that use them.
jes, I taught in a rural school in Maine for 7 years and likewise in Oregon for 24. I retired at 63 because of a new program that was being finalized by the state which I felt required too much time doing record keeping, and testing rather than teaching; I felt the final outcome for the kids was not going to be an improved education. I liked the small schools because I got to know the students better than in a large one – over the course of four years I might have a college bound student in six different classes.
I don’t feel that curriculum is mandated to math and science teachers as it is to those in special education, at least that was the case in my school. Other teachers would often ask “how come you get all the good students?” response “the ones I teach are motivated to get an education”. Additionally, perhaps large districts, like where Harley teaches, are very different from small ones because there are more layers of administrators.
Actually the easiest class I ever had was during my last year when the administration assigned to me a group of seven senior students who needed a math credit in order to graduate. The curriculum was entirely my own, there was no direction from above; mostly I had them do laboratory activities that would improve their basic comprehension of math – like actually measuring stuff rather than have a diagram in a book. The primary reason they needed the class was because in the past they had been absent too often. Some continued that cronic pattern so I frequently had less than seven kids during that period – lots of one on one interaction. Not all of them passed.
I did not have to kowtow to agencies and definitely do not follow the crowd of public opinion. My comments here over the year should have demonstrated that. If I caved easily I would never have been the first female to graduate in forestry from the U of Idaho.
Well said, Lee….I shall defer to matters of teaching and your expertise in them, at least recognizing and appreciating your first hand experience with them….Now, for those of us with first hand experience in the woods and ways of animals, can you spare the same?
Now how much first hand experience do I have to have? I lived in the woods for 7 years in Montana, another 7 in Maine, in Oregon 25 years on a hazelnut farm and woody area and now in the middle of 100 acres of forest for 10 years. I have hunted and fished, including commercially in Bristol Bay Alaska; I have spent many weeks of vacations in the wildernesses of the northwest and Alaska on river trips. and other time camping and huckleberrying. Both my brother and daughter in Idaho live in the country and so when I visit there it is not like I am in New York City.
Even though I taught, that does not mean that I have no knowledge regarding ecological systems. I graduated with a degree in forestry – not education.
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You have had a fortunate situation, teaching so closely with the students. Every one remembers their teachers –
I think you were successful as a teacher in what you explained. For myself, I saw Latin go out about the time i finished hi school. and i can still spell it, but it has had and effect on learning, thinking. etc.
I had heard or read of an elementary school after wits end, revert to latin teaching; the kids turned around – got things learnt and enjoyed it.
Latin is still spoken from the most powerful little nation on earth but we don’t know what it means. Others do, but we don’t in america, we forgot. And we don’t know ‘much ’bout history… don’t know much ’bout geology…, like the old song goes….
Too bad, otherwise, one could figure out why they are broke and have no country, from history that we all hated reading. History books were large in my day, yours too.
Vos es rectus
Greg, did you check this out or are you afraid of the truth? And you think that there are lots of areas that are free of livestock in the west on public lands? What a laugh!
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.landsinfo.org/sierraclub/grazing/idaho.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sierraclub.org/grazing/where/&usg=__g-HbaqynU-jk0GaHDCyfbUoGhqM=&h=3006&w=2256&sz=744&hl=en&start=35&um=1&tbnid=tdnORcJSHgamyM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=113&prev=/images%3Fq%3DBLM,%2BNational%2Bforest%2Band%2BNational%2Bgrassland%2Bgrazing%2BAllotments%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:*%26sa%3DN%26start%3D21%26um%3D1
Rebuttle?
Ar, I took French in high school and didn’t learn as much as I could have. I wish I had taken Latin instead as it would have helped me with the scientific names of plants and animals; and, as you mention lots of our root words are Latin.
I got tired of American history year after year; world history was taught in the 6th grade, I loved it, and it was an elective when in high school; it turned out to be one of my favorite classes because of the content and teacher, Mr. William Barns.
Without a view of the past it is hard for humans to know where they are going or from whence they came. I pushed for more stringent requirements in the sciences and math but I always advocated for more history in the curriculum.
I don’t believe that the school system in which I taught had a formal geography class during any grade by the time I retired; it was dropped in high school to allow for more English; four years worth; most of this was literature – no more dirill on grammar.
How many acres are they using in Idaho ?
If you look at the Sawtooth Zone, which is eight hunt units, and Wilderness sections, units 33-34-35-36-39, Unit 36 has a slight amount, the lions share being on private ground. That’s forest, could be some on BLM in 39.. I don’t hang out on BLM.. I hang in forest and Wilderness.. Units 43-44-45-48-49–52- No grazing.. Their is some in 50..
You people are blowing it out of proportion with exaggerations..
Actually I spaced out the sheep in 43-44-48 But I have pulled my string past them going to Wilderness and every season their in a different watershed, and those past area’s they had been in the prior year look perfectly fine. Their is a small operation in 39, north east corner out side the wilderness.. Seen it for years and the “damage” is a Marvel myth.. I don’t see cattle any more.. 34 used to have them, not so now..
Lee – That link doesn’t work for me. All I get is the Google start page for search.
It’s just a Sierra Club cheat sheet.. The Agenda is to remove Ranchers from Public lands grazing period, not educate them on a better plan that would function better for watersheds, not a better advisory on live stock rotations, BUT 100% removal off the public grazing allotments period by any ends which justify the means for the Sierra Nazis..
Sheep and cattle are ungulates, the rototilling which is rotated annually hurts nothing, Just imagine 10 million Buffalo rampaging across the Plains leaving the mess they must have left, torn up ground, Buff pies every where, oh my gosh and the lands healed by the next season… The Sierra Club is a pusher of the Rewild America Agenda 21 program..
After the communists remove ranchers I wonder who they will go after next… Snow Mobiles, those dirty rotten high markers, those filthy horses and pack strings, those back packers crapping in the forest, stop the hunters, that is definitely on the Sierra Clubs list, no hunting no guns.. No fire wood gathering, no picture outings, why the unsustainable outings list is impressive.. OMG, Americans are destroying their landscapes, but the communists are here to save the lands, the day and all of us.. Lol.. via Demarcation, more rules more boundaries, wild life buffer zones..
Just Another Rant>
http://candidconservatives.com/just-another-rant/
” We have 4,150 acres of deeded range land with about 1,000 acres of public land mixed in with it. We pay a per-head fee to use our public land. Your elk, deer, cougars, wolves, sage grouse, and other wildlife use our private range land for nothing. I am not complaining. They are mine also, but don’t accuse the livestock owner of not paying enough to graze his public land. ” —Ron Peck, rancher near Fairfield Idaho..
Tom, when the link comes up click on “National Forest and National Grassland allotments”.
I have never belonged to the Sierra Club but that doesn’t mean I won’t look at their material with a critical eye.
My last statement was directed at Greg.
Historical writings prove it is evident that many early day expeditions, even though far off the beaten track, failed to find the mythical virgin range of luscious grass that we have been led to believe existed. This early day picture of perfect range conditions, drawn by theories with vivid imaginations, completely ignores the fact that buffaloes and antelopes by the millions (the great buffalo herd has been estimated as high as 30,000,000 head) roamed the plains at will, that devastating prairie fires were frequent and at certain times of the year would burn down into the roots and destroy grass, particularly in the lighter soils, and that the water development was far from what it is today.
The report of Rev. Samuel Parker, 1836, dealing with conditions on the Oregon Trail between Fort Laramie and what is now Douglas, Wyoming states, ” We found very little grass for our horses and mules, owing to three causes, the sterility of the soil, the proximity of the mountains, and the grazing of numerous buffalo and antelope.”
Father P.J. DeSmet’s account, 1841 and 1842, describes conditions in the region of the Snake and Yellowstone rivers, as follows, ” Our beasts of burden were compelled to fast and pine, for scarcely a mouth full of grass could be found…..A journey so long and continuous through regions where the drought had been so great that every sign of vegetation had disappeared, had very much exhuasted our poor horses..
Is has been the common assumption of so-called experts that the range prior to occupancy by the white man was in perfect condition.
Senate Document 199, generally recognized as the bid of the Forest Service for control of all the grazing lands under government
supervision, uses as its base for comparison 100 per cent as representing virgin condition such as is found along railroad right-ofways,
fence corners, cemeteries, etc. The practical stockman at once inquires: Of what benefit is a country in a non-use condition’? Was not
the grass grown intended to be used and useful rather than to be allowed to mature to the 100 per cent non-use condition referred to
above, and was this condition properly pictured? And he resents the implication that he has depleted the range to the extent that its present
condition is estimated to be below a non-use condition in carrying capacity. instead, he contends, and we offer much evidence to support his
claims, that in many instances carrying capacity today exceeds that of the early days referred to, although there have been substantial changes
in types of grass, coarse rank grasses of an early day being replaced with shorter and more nutritious types. Further mor, as one digs into the record of the past it becomes clear that the conditions in the days before the plains were populated by domestic live stock were by no means as perfect as now pictured…
WWP are a pack of Charlatans…
So you want to believe anyway. I see no scientific evidence for most of what you say, all qualitative but not quantitative.
Be a bit more specific of which range you are speaking. There were few bison on the far western states because of a paucity of grasses due to lack of moisture, ever heard of sagebrush?
Tell me about and name two of those shorter and more nutritious grasses.
Ok so I threw this out there awhile ago to Greg. Now I throw it out to you Lee. Where exactly do you stand? Do you really think that people like Greg are only there to protect the game so they can have more to hunt? Ad far as I can tell, and I may have gotten this wrong and that surely wouldn’t be a first time! But as far as I can tell, Greg isn’t opposed to no wolves. he wants things to be managed, not wiped out and that includes not wiping out the predators. Did I get that wrong Greg? So where exactly do you stand in all of this Lee? That’s not a challenge or any kind of judgement. As with Greg, I really am trying to sort it all out but when you two banter back and forth it is very difficult to see just where you all stand. I do have a better handle on Greg though. At least… I think I do!
Why don’t you tell us about the grasses added and or changed over the years..
Harley I want the wolves back that were here before the idiots created this nightmare.
I want the state to manage wolves, I want the state to stop lying to us about elk numbers which they are covering up.. I want super evolved intellectuals like lee to explain why they would approve the addition of wolves into hunting units in Idaho which were already suffering from bad winter years, other units reduced to controlled hunting opportunity only obviously did not need this apex monster killer added into the mix.. The point being several Idaho units were not to ungulate carrying capacity, this is a risk for the ungulates, wolves, and my hunting opportunity, and they just flipped the proverbial coin and went for it..
I want them to explain why they scoff at IDFG now, and scoffed at us who live here over the years when we told them there are problems here on the ground.. And they scoffed and ridiculed us, and conveniently pointed to IDFG numbers which suited them at the time.. Then the state finally has to come clean on at least two zones, Sawtooth and Lolo, which we pointed to constantly and said a wipe out is occurring in those units…And truth be known there are other units hurting badly from wolf predation.. Now several hunts have been reduced by 50% across the board, why if only eight units are suffering are other units having tag opportunity drop..
The truth is this wolf is nothing more than a tool for the anti hunting anti ranching agenda.. These people prove who they are over and over and over and over.. The truth is lee replys here to agitate period, she has no integrity at all.. she offers nothing ever.. All she is after is the agenda.. And the ends justifies the means for them period.. People from afar calling us liars for defending our homes, property, and game herds.. She can go to hell.
Barb Rupers Says:
December 13, 2009 at 10:39 PM
Jim T
So where should I send my money? How do I determine the best organization to represent wildlife interests. I have been in the recent past a member of TNC, EDF, WWF, DoW, Wilderness Society, Audobon.
Tory..
When is the last time you saw cattle crapping in a stream or knocking down a stream bank? Let me ask you; do wolves eat the various weeds or help keep the grass down to a reasonable amount concerning fire fuels? Birds crap in the creeks to, fowl, deer, elk, bears, foxes coyotes, moose, wolves, mountain goats, big horn sheep, the ungulates all crap the used plants and grass, the predators crap the ungulates.. where ever when ever So what.. You enviro frauds just want to attack Ranching.. Hell even recycled city water gets back into the river.. The animals have been doing it for centuries but humans have griped about it for 20+ years..
My ilk are not trying to ruin your ilks lives, your ilk cannot make the same claim..
Defenders of Wildlife – An Organization Driven By Deceit…Outright Dishonesty…And A Greed For Money!
If there is one thing we must admit, when it comes to being consistent, the organization known as the Defenders of Wildlife continues to hold a pretty straight course – and that is to continue using the same old lies and cries to bilk the American public into donating to “their cause”. Rarely do they waver from the deceit they’ve found to get thousands to part with $20…$50…or even $100 or more every time this phony environmental group throws up a new facade proclaiming that follower support is needed to save endangered wildlife.
http://www.lobowatch.com/AntiHuntingGroups.html
How Important Are You…Your Needs…Your Welfare…Your Safety When It Comes To An Ever Growing Number Of Wolves?
http://www.lobowatch.com/HumanFactor.html
These fools have no conscience, they could care less about the harm done to other peoples, ruined lives, loss of lively hoods, and the pain of watching this monster predator they love destroy that which we love… Elk herds which fed us, and gave us joy watching them grow.. Only to be destroyed while the “Wild Life Lovers” scorn us…
Greg you apparently know nothing about the native or intorduced grasses into the western landscape.
Harley, if hat was really you asking the question give me a sign.. I think it is just Greg putting out his fishing line before he uses the stick on a dog.
No no, it’s me asking. I don’t want to start something new or poke at something old. I’d just like to see where exactly you stand. I think overall you are an easier person to get to know but I’m still wondering exactly where you stand. You and Greg like to poke and prod each other and it’s difficult to tell your exact position.
Harley, Greg is not trying to sort anything out. There is the world according to Greg and that is the way it is. He can not answer a simple question about “better” grasses that replaced less desirable natives. He has no depth on ecosystems, only repeated, unsubstantiated claims regarding the world according to GREG. He rarely answers a questiohn- only relegates it to a place where it never again is considered. He spews so much verbage that one quits reading since it frequently has nothing to do with the original topic. He is a master of deflection.
Glad to see Lee appreciates Greg, Harley, but she’s a little fixated on the fact she can’t draw him out and finish him off….she can help get him off other websites, but can’t keep him on her track.
Barb “Lee” Rupert has been on this site trying to make an influence in a number of aliases, and yet she accuses Greg of doing the same thing…hah!
You won’t get a straight answer out of her, because she doesn’t have one….yet she accuses Greg of doing the same thing, once again…
As far as I see, she is adamantly pro-wolf, no matter what the circumstances…that means she would not have a wolf killed no matter how they are overpopulated, or are destroying the elk herds…..she thinks nature will “run its course”, and everything will be alright, no matter if the elk are destroyed or not…….maybe she will deny this, but I have seen her opinions on this site for some time. She is anti-hunting, even though she denies it….(this is a typical tactic for the anti-hunter who wants to make them think they are one of you–another hunter, so as to divide opinion and subvert unity)
The fact is, Harley, that it took man using every possible means, at least 40 years to eradicate the wolf, and that was with every means possible; poison, traps, aerial shooting, bounties, and even with all that effort, the wolf simply moved to Canada where they continued to survive as usual….During the absence of the wolf, the elk and deer and livestock have returned to numbers that were only possible without the wolf…..and granted, there were numbers that were too many, in areas where hunting was not permitted.
Now, the average Joe, is not a hunter, he is a city boy, who has no idea where or what the farm and ranch and hunting is all about…..throw yourself into that picture…and for sure he/she cannot remember what raising livestock is all about, or how hunting has been a heritage and a mainstay of substance and enjoyment for those who live in the country…And they are too young to remember what damage the wolf used to do to both livestock, and deer and elk…and why they were exterminated in the first place…
So, now we have a new breed of non-hunters, who have no need for hunting, and think the wolf can do the job that hunters have done…..manage wildlife. The only problem is, is that the wolf has his own agenda…..and his own belly is his manager…and he will greedily eat the last remaining elk or deer as if it were his last meal on earth….And yet, the anti-hunter cannot see that, but only sees the wolf as a means of “bringing back the natural process”, which of course, means “no hunting” for hunters..
The crux of the matter is a struggle that has gone on for ages…..man and his game, and the wolf and his game. And both will contend with each other as long as they have a common denominator: the food they eat! And if the wolf became prevalent enough, and hungry enough, the vegetarian man, would be on his diet…..
Now, does that make me anti-wolf? Yes and no….I admire the wolf, and appreciate his beauty and intelligence and abilities, but they have and will have the capabilities of becoming the decimator of all the other wildlife I hold so dear, if they are not kept in check…….and from all that I hear from those who hunt the areas where they have been re-introduced, they are already out of control…..And hunters are the only ones who are actually there to know, all the pro-wolf people are busy sitting at home saying otherwise!
hmm. I do understand what you are saying Jes, thank you for that but I have a question. Maybe not a question. I don’t know what you would call this lol! You said the wolf was actively and purposefully eliminated and then it just traveled to Canada to thrive, or something long those lines. Well ok, wiping out something in one area isn’t management either, right? Keeping it in control is one thing, getting rid of it completely is another and that’s what concerns me. You don’t want to see the elk entirely wiped out, by the wolf. I guess I have a hard time seeing the wolf entirely wiped out by us? Control, heck yeah. If they go after livestock, I mean that’s an completely new thing but to get rid of them completely… I don’t know, I’m not on the front lines as I’ve said. But for us to do that….Yes, I know they went to Canada. (Yah hey der) But they were here too. Isn’t there some kind of fine balance between ‘Don’t kill a single wolf!’ and ‘Kill ‘em all!’?
Why don’t you tell us about the grasses added and or changed over the years.. From above, I am aware of the grass changes and improvements over native grasses and the Ranchers did it.. Big deal.. Man made improvements on the desolate lands for the betterment of not just himself but others.. Now I can name the grasses but I am not playing your stupid games..
We never needed to “sort ” anything out, we had peace of mind, we had elk herds, we had deer herds, we had our gardens, we let our kids wander about freely on our lands with little to worry about, we moved to the country to escape child predators and drugs.. We had a wonderful life, and then you people came along with your unmanaged filthy mutt..
Wolves populate faster than bears and cougars do, wolves function as a collective unit, that must be why communists love wolves so much, and then toss in the fact that the average joe, has predators for pets, cats, and dogs.. Some of us have ungulate pets..
The thing that is being proven, and several Canadian scientists warned us, wolves become a big problem if left to their own devices.. Now just stop and think, The Sawtooth Wilderness is roughly 45 miles wide by 60 miles in length, it is surrounded by roads, trails and camp grounds, a few ranches, and rural home sites.. I have walked across the width of it in two days and the length of it in three.. The Frank Church Wilderness is roughly 100 miles by 100 miles… Once AGAIN it is surrounded by roads, trails, campgrounds, Ranches, and rural home sites..
You go dumping wolves into that, ok fine, and then you let them over populate you have mad residents, you have wiped out elk herds.. and you have people who continue to call you liars… People who do not live near the problem..
Those people rely on main stream news, local and federal government, and ” wild life protectionist ” groups who live even farther away from the problem.. All of those groups have donations in the millions, and they rely on scientists and lawyers they hire to support their bullshit…
And as most of those folks admit reading the real root cause of this problem is to much rhetoric and or trouble..
” Americans” do not think for themselves they let Rockefeller-Dewey public indoctrinators do it for them.. And then the U.N. Environmentalist think tanks of deception.. Lee has had over two years to disprove those claims and has failed to do so, she ignores it, denies it, changes the subject… She wants to talk about a blade of grass this time, instead of the root cause of this fight people today find themselves in…
Ranching, Farming, rural lifestyles, hunting, skiing, photo ops while hiking are not sustainable… The U.N. Agenda.. slowly being installed, keep denying it..
Harley, you teach, Lee did to, I’ll tell you what, I’ll go with the teachers among Americans pointing to the truth.. JOHN TAYLOR GATTO – 30 years in new York City’s public schools system, a recipient of the New York City Teacher of the Year Award, AND New York State teacher of the Year.. Author and speaker.. The kind of teacher America needs in every class room..
Gatto proves that compulsory government schooling has nothing to do with education.. Doing little but to teach young people to CONFORM to the economy and the social order.. In other words dumbing us down..
This awesome teacher has a few books, and he agrees with my perspectives..
Lee is just a conformist to the socialist dogma… I was fortunate to have parents who kept me and my sister away from teachers like that..
I love all wild life, I respect predators and have pretty much let them be.. We have to many wolves in this little place called Idaho.. I think the State and feds are trying to cover up what amounts to another governmental failure.. I think this wolf has gotten away from them.. I think they were warned about it many years ago.. I think the last thing their gonna do is admit it..
Sure is Harley…..And the wolf was “brought back”, from, near extermination, to try an “experiment” within the Yellowstone and National Park confines…..even though they are not confined…This was the original proposition, and sportsman and ranchers were told that the wolves would be kept in “containment”, and/or reparations would be made for the nearby damages, if and when they “escaped” the park confines…..This was why people at the time didn’t fight against it….and there were plenty of “us” then (people who made a living off the land, or hunters who were concerned about losing the success we had gained in restoring the herds of deer and elk we had worked so hard to restore.
Since you’re too young to remember, this was a drastic “experiment”, considering the fact that wolves had killed so many deer, sheep, elk, cattle, and the like, that people knew it was either them or “us”, and the entire nation was able to understand that wolves and man do not “get along”, but were a threat to mans endeavors… Yes, the “extermination” was almost total annihilation, but we brought back the cattle industry, and the great herds of deer and elk that became common in later years…
I’m not saying we need to exterminate the wolf, but at this stage of the game, he is being kept “unchecked” and mismanaged, and I say we need to go back to the original proposal, and see if the wolf can be managed at all….before he gains yet another foothold in destroying what we hunters and conservations have worked for in bringing back deer and elk…..but that isn’t going to happen until it gets so bad that we decide to go and do something about it. And it is happening, but the government isn’t listening….
Perhaps the fact that we are now importing so much beef and meat from other nations, especially South America, and that we are not caring about the American rancher anymore, but accusing him of living off the government subsidies, and I can assure the ones who are have been pressured into doing exactly that! Because by and large, the bulk of cattlemen and ranchers are the most hard working, and independent minded people of our entire history. But since the country is not dependent on our own cattlemen anymore, they have deserted them and their complaints in contending with wolves….
Maybe that clarifies some of the problem, but, yes I don’t think the wolf has a place in the “open countryside”, but should be kept in close management in the parks where he can be closely monitored…. otherwise, we will have the same problems we have had before, Maybe you would like him in YOUR backyard, with your children left to play with your dogs, pets, and livestock, but I can assure you, the people who know what the wolf could do and would do …..don’t! But they want those of us who reside in another area…..to live with the problems they will not live with themselves.
I would like to see Lee fence her property with ten foot tall chain link and then lets dump out 15 wolves into that 100 acres and then we see how long before the wailing begins…
She’s already wailing, Greg…..been sounding like that for some time, now…I expect she’d like nothing better than to be one of the pack…..Howoooooooo …..
Lol, I could see her trying to make friends with them… A Wolf pack society with logic and reason missing…. Unless that myth that dogs reach a 3 year old human level of reason is true… A wolf society with logic and reason above the age of three missing, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha…
Nice recaps gentlemen, you also jes, har har. Age has history at; shoot year round at the wolf and he is at bay enough to not screw with mankinds dominion.
I have learned a tremendous amount here and have never appreciated disinformation that Lee brings; it never makes any sense. I will try and read and understand but i do not. so, i try another day. Somethimes i think it is on purpose and other times i thinks she does not know and won’t admit it. If my mind was closed to that extent, would i have the capacity to ask for help? nope
Free shooting ALL year on the Dog or it will git ya. The dog was around when I grew up and we shooted it to hell; and had good hunting.
Shooting it to hell means; they stay away, a long way away from man. They do not disappear. They lurk….. just outside of man. I saw my first wolf in maine when i was 38. Shoot that bastard and the others disappear – for awhile.
They have to be managed year-round.
Strangely enough, the best shot I ever made in my life was on a dog-wolf or hybrid, or possibly a true Florida wolf….this was back in the late 50’s or early 60’s when I was 18 or so….
Nobody believed there was such a thing as a Florida wolf back in those days, as even coyotes were seldom sighted….not that I believed it myself, but as I have grown older, I have thought often of the possibilities of it being one…
As we ran a small herd of cattle on our land, about 30 head, not counting calves each season, we had losses on a regular basis from a pack of dogs, definitely, most of them feral, which was always led by a black dog (wolf) which looked at the time like a solid black German Sheppard…the black wolf looks identical for all practical purposes, but nobody would believe me if I told them that……so I didn’t!
Year after year, the “devil dog pack” would bring down a calf or two, and I could never see him when I would carry my old .30-30…..and I carried it almost everywhere back in those days….But on a day when I didn’t carry the old M94, I would see that rascal and wonder why I hadn’t carried the rifle that day…It got to be like he was leading a charmed life….and over the years, we simply got used to the losses….
Well, I was always practicing with the old lever gun and got to where I could hit aspirins tossed in the air with it….and back in those days we had no neighbors within a mile or two, so I practiced a lot..
And one day I was carrying my rifle when up hops this wolf/ or wolf dog, and he starts out about halfway across a 40 acre field……well, the grass was grown so high that he disappeared in the thick of it but made the grass weave to show me which way he was going….
And I knew right then, he was headed for the only place in the fence where the wire was a little lower, so he could jump it….and just as I figured, he jumped right where the fence was a little lower, and when he was at the top of his jump, that ole .30-30 brought him down in a heap….and that was one lucky shot! And the distance was across a 40sq. field…(as I recall, about 400 yards, with open sights) These days I’d be lucky to even see him that far away!
Well that was the last of the calf robbing from any dogs after that….cut off the head, and the rest followed…But looking back, that “dog” looked and acted like one smart wolf……
Dogs chase deer. My own did, I saw ole King dog chase a deer across the road just up from the house, i was 10 or so. It was the last time i saw King. Dad did him in for it. and rightly so.
I think that ole wolf of yours was waitin on you and looking for the ’stick’ you carried.
Harley,
You will note that both jes and Greg know what I think.
I have never posted here under an alias, I have always used Lee since day one.
The primary reason for the difference in opinion between Greg and me is that he is a creationist and believes that Earth is very young – like perhaps 6000 years. That it was created for man who is to have dominion over all living creatures.
On the other hand all evidence I have examined shows that evolution has occurred over millions of years, that man has only been around a very few million. The horseshoe crab has been here for about 250.000,000 years in essentially the same form, obviously a well adapted life form. I seriously doubt that man will survive for that long. Predator and prey have evolved together; the reason that elk are such a worthy game animal is because it was shaped by predators including the wolf. I don’t believe that animals need to be managed by man, they got along just fine before we arrived on the scene. I do not believe that humans are superior to other life forms.
I am not opposed to hunting. My agenda is not to have hunting banned. I defend the wolf because they are an integral part of an ecosystem that has been and is being degraded by human activities.
Humans have caused the extinction of plants – over 50 in Haiwaii alone- as well as animals, Steller’s sealion, dodo bird, and passenger pigeon are examples, they have introduced exotic biota, such as cheat grass, yellow star thistle, knapweeds, himalayan blackberries, gorse, zebra muscles, and carp which cause great economic losses as well as having delterious effects on native systems; they transferred diseases into places where the native species have not evolved resistance such as chestnut blight which destroyed one of this countries most valuable nut and timber trees; Dutch elm disease which wiped out a valuable lumber tree in addition to a beautiful landscape tree; and white pine blister rust which kills 5 needle pines including western white pine, which at one time was the most valuable timber tree in Idaho; it also kills white bark pine at high elevations which is a source of seeds for bears fattening up for the winter. Back in the 1950s the USFS had blister rust camps, hired young men from all over the country to eradicate the intermediate host plant, ribes, which includes currents and gooseberries.
This is the first time that a species has been removed from the endangered list and then hunted with in months. Minnesota has a wolf plan which calls for no hunting for 5 years following delisting. They have over 3000 wolves – more than in all the northern Rockies.
A late winter blizzard last year killed more livestock in Montana than have been killed by wolves since reintroduciton. Coyotes and dogs kill more than do wolves. “Man” has tried to eliminate the coyote. Fortunately, “he” has not been successful.
Western leases on national lands costs the government more than they bring in from the grazing fees, which is about $1.35/cow-calf pair or 5 sheep and their lambs. There are about 455,000,000 million acres leased to 25,000 ranchers – over 18,000 acreas per leasee. And in this vast expanse they raise less than 5 % of the beef in the USA. My point here is that there could be a lot more wildlife if these lands were grazed by native mammals which evolved here instead of foreign cattle that evolved in a humid climate and are not adapted to the arid conditions of the intermountain west.
Extinction is forever.
That takes way too much faith.
A lot of faith in nothing but a hoax..
” The greatest step in language evolution would have been the progression from primitive, pidgin-like communication to a creole-like language with all the grammar and syntax of modern languages. Many scholars believe that this step could only have been accomplished with some biological change to the brain, such as a mutation. It has been suggested that a gene such as FOXP2 may have undergone a mutation allowing humans to communicate. Evidence suggests that this change took place somewhere in East Africa around 100,000 to 50,000 years ago, which rapidly brought about significant changes that are apparent in the fossil record. There is still some debate as to whether language developed gradually over thousands of years or whether it appeared suddenly.”
If true then where are all the records of those eye witnesses to evolution occurring before their very eyes, not even one drawing on stone to confirm this evolutionary myth.. Just modern day “science” trying to push another of their many frauds on us..
What a brilliant thing this accident of evolution is, evolution knew I would need all these medicinal healing plants and herbs, evolution did a wonderful job fitting me up for the horse, evolution gave me the power to breed with woman that it knew I would need gave us the the accident to evolve children..
Evolution gave man and intellectual mind but did not give it to any other creature, I still am waiting for a dog or wolf or horse to write a book, create and independent nation of wild animals to manage themselves and demand sovereignty and equality right next to us evolved men.. I’m still waiting for the Apes to build and airplane, still waiting to see any thing evolve right before our eyes to prove it more than just a theory from Jesuit Priests and Monks.. The insane Darwins did not arrive on the world scene in a vacuum, the way had been prepared for them by another deadly trio: Nicolaus Copernicus (1473-1543). Johannes Kepler (1571-1630). Galileo Galilei (1564-1642). Then along came the insane Ape men nuts Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802) grandfather of ape-man Charles Darwin. Charles (ape-man) Darwin (1809-1882). George Howard Darwin (1845-1912). All 6 of these men were Jesuit saboteurs and haters of the book of Genesis..
Just the false prophet whore from Rome and her filthy tricks..
Greg must still believe in a flat Earth; and chariots pulling the sun across the sky.
I dunno, I’ve always thought that chariots pulling the sun across the sky is more of a Greek or possibly ROMAN kind of thing. Certainly not something Greg would believe. I could be wrong I suppose…
Lee, do you believe in God?
I am an agnostic. I see no evidence for the existance of a supreme being. Why is it necessary for god to preform miracles that are contrary to the laws of physics to cool a many cubic mile, liquid mass of granite to a solid in three minutes (or was that seconds?). And if that happened, how come the crystals in granite are large, not small like in quickly cooled magma – think volcanic glass – obsidian. He must have suspended at least two laws to accomplish this act.
It is not uncommon to read in pre-university student essays that people once believed that the earth is flat and even that people who suggested otherwise were burnt at the stake. Is it true that people in the Dark Ages actually believed such a thing? Reference was made to a book by Jeffrey Russell called Inventing the Flat Earth. Here is a description of the book taken from the amazon. com site (where the book is reported as presently unavailable): Of course I have it myself..
Neither Christopher Columbus nor his contemporaries thought the earth was flat. Yet this curious illusion persists today, firmly established with the help of the media, textbooks, and teachers, –even noted historians.
Inventing the Flat Earth is Russell’s attempt to set the record straight. He begins with a discussion of geographical knowledge in the Middle Ages, examining what Columbus and his contemporaries actually did believe, and then moves to a look at how the error was first propagated in the 1820s and 1830s and then “snowballed”to outrageous proportions by the late 19th century.
But perhaps the most intriguing focus of the book is the reason why we allow this error to persist. Do we prefer to languish in a comfortable and familiar error rather than exert the effort necessary to discover the truth?
This uncomfortable question is engagingly answered. Apparently, the spherical-earth theory occupied a similar position to that of most geology and evolutionary biology today: that is, it was an accepted part of mainstream scientific thought and non-controversial among most of the learned, but a number of educated people (and probably a higher proportion of the non-learned who did not publish their views) felt compelled to reject it, some on theological grounds, but most on philosophical grounds. The main difference is that towards the end of the Dark Ages the learned men were right, whereas today they are wrong.
In any case, the idea that Church or government authorities in the Renaissance would have quarreled with Columbus or Galileo for believing in a spherical earth is indefensible. People who have looked into this matter conclude that this error originated in the USA from a work by the author Washington Irving (1783-1859). Apparently, the error was also propagated in France about the same time by Antoine-Jean Letronne (1787-1848).
Still, during the early era of the Dark Ages some did believe that the earth was flat. The main example in the Byzantine world is Cosmas Indicopleustis (the same Cosmas who sailed to India). He lived during the sixth century A.D. His book, Christian Topography, was widely read. In it, he claimed that the earth was flat, with a large mountain right in its middle.
He explained nightfall by the Sun going behind this mountain. Cosmas’s view is similar to that of Anaximander and Anaximenes around the sixth or fifth century B.C. In their model, the sun and other planets circle above a flat earth and daily “set”behind a big mountain. Perhaps Cosmas’s claims linking Scripture with the flat earth was not based on any Scriptural considerations on his part as it is not in those scriptures. Interestingly, the cosmology of the Indian Puranas has the same sort of setup. Could it be a source or a derivation of Cosmas’scheme?
There is no record of anyone being burned at the stake for adhering to a spherical earth The only figure burnt at the stake for “scientific heresy” was Bruno, who was burned by the Roman Catholic church on 16 February, 1600, for promoting the idea that: Innumerable suns exist;
innumerable earths revolve around these suns in a manner similar to the way the seven planets revolve around our sun. Living beings inhabit these worlds.
The Flat Earth game, and the evolutionary game are just that games, unproven historical theory’s which do not stand up under severe bright light, know as real research.. But they do work well to turn some people away from the path of truth..
Lee – “I see no evidence for the existance of a supreme being”.
I’m curious. Is that a typo when you typed “no evidence FOR”?
Luke 17:31-36 reads as follows:
In that day, he which shall be upon the house top, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not turn back …. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left…. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
In regard to the shape of the earth, the point of these verses is this: they speak of day (verse 31) and night (verse 34) as occurring simultaneously.
Likewise in Acts 1:8, Jesus gives His commission to His disciples to be witnesses “unto the uttermost part of the earth.” Note here that the word “part” is singular. A flat earth with four corners should be indicated by “uttermost parts;” but a spheroidal earth would have only one uttermost part, its opposite side or antipodes. Thus the Bible does not necessarily teach that the earth is flat.
And neither did Christians of the real Biblical texts in those earlier times as the liars would like us to believe..
To gain a true understanding of those Scriptures is very hard work, those inspired writers were being shown future events and attempting to describe them with their understanding of their times..
The strongest evidence for me is historical and political events and time lines, especially the visions of the Prophet Daniel.. the Woman riding upon the back of the Beast is in fact the Whore of Babylon, the false church of Rome riding upon the backs of governments.. Riding upon the back of the beast, obviously in control of the governments..
The evidence is irrefutable.. So either it is all bull shit or the elites at the foremost powerful positions in the world today and those past ones, are following the Bible like a blue print for some prank.. Or they are being herded into a corner for the finally.. This belief has nothing to do with Faith, it has to do with factual evidence.. Why else would brilliant men be fighting against this prophecy the way they are..
And my point is to people like lee, is regardless what we personally believe, those super elites believe in Satan, and the worship Satan, the esoteric ancient languages prove it.. The religions and languages of the Egyptian hierarchy is still being used by them today… I read this stuff like you guys read Websters… I read legal jargon that is over your heads, their flat out doing it, why on earth can you not understand their control of the sciences..
Why are they mimicking the Supreme Creator, as the Bible says they will do.. The Bible also says, ” I will put to ruin those ruining the earth.” Man is not ruining the earth, the Babylonian controlled Beasts are..
Lee, I fought ten thousand times harder in thirty years to disprove all this than you have ever done.. And I cannot disprove it… You will apologize to him.. you have the many chances to awaken.. You never will obviously in the flesh will figure this out.. But you will before him..
Their lying to you.
I’m afraid then that this is where there would be a parting of the ways between you and I Lee. I believe in God. I believe in his exsitence. I believe in Him everytime I look at the wonder of nature. (yeah and I said Him, not Her which will have my feministic friends in a tizzy. Oh well…)
To me, that’s solid proof. I have faith, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Heb.11:1). Now, I may not hold to all the things Greg says he believes in, even with his links to back up a majority of what he says. But I’m starting to think he and I are more aligned than I first thougth we were.
And no, I’m not Greg.
Glad to see what I thought of you is not in error, Harley…..your genuine and refreshing nature is open to the truth, as I thought…..for you have the soul to see and believe, and that takes an open and upright heart…….
I can’t say that I believe everything that Greg believes in, either… but we’re both on the same page when it comes to knowing the Good Book, and the Good Lord. Unfortunately, I am starting to see the Catholic hierarchy more and more for what it really is, even though in it’s humbler context, it gives many some sense of family and/or fellowship in the church of Christ….(that church being the simple fellowship of all souls in Christ)
The problem is not the Catholic Church so much as it is the Hi jacking of that Church by the Society of Jesus and the Jesuit Order created in 1534 by Loyola. And those 4th Vow Vicars of Christ who have sworn Allegiance to their General the Superior General, the Black Pope, the real boss at the Vatican controlling the White Pope.. One Pope at least tried to stop them with a Papal Bull, around a century ago, they killed him.. As well the Roman Catholics of Spain once rose up against them and the Vatican, only to have that Pope use Islam to kill them off thus thwarting the attempt at saving their Church.. I’m just going off the top of my head, I forget the dates and specific details of that exchange.. Still historically prior to the Reformation period, and in Catholic Controlled nations of Europe it was against the law to own the Bibles which I possess.. I wonder why.. The Papacy swore in the Verona Treatise they would destroy this and any other Free Republic.. If these cretins pull off and Inquisition of this nation they will not bat one eye at the deaths of Constitutional and Freedom loving American Roman Catholics.. Studying the Jesuit History very closely and all of their Conquests over the last 500 years it appears they may do just that in the future, Using the Chinese, and Russians, who they control just as they control us.. That said i can never believe the Trinity myself.. As well the Bible Clearly identifies Rome as the Harlot riding the beasts back… And that harlot will control all governments, and she does now via her U.N…. Sorry gentlemen but the Congressional Globes and U.N. Documents along with those mystery languages prove it..
Here are some reasons as to why I have come to the understanding that the trinity is false.
1- The word trinity is unBiblical and does not appear in the bible
2- The Catholic church teaches it
3-The Bible supports the fact that Jesus is the father and holy spirit
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Here Jesus is being called a King (government on his shoulders) Prince (son of a king) the Mighty god (God himself) and the everlasting father, notice the THE EVERLASTING FATHER clearly showing that Jesus is THE God not just a separate person of God.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Colossians 1:15,16,17
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
here we see that God created heaven in genesis, but in the NT it was by Jesus . If God and his son are separate persons how could this be, the bible does not contradict itself therefore Jesus must be God
John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus is the word of God as we all know, and here in John it says the Word WAS GOD, NOT… the word was the separate person of God, Jesus Christ which would make much more sense to the reader if this was indeed the case
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
This verse does not state they are three separate persons in One But that they ARE ONE
Harley
Many people accept the reality of evolution and also believe in God. Tom is the only one recently posting here that seems to accept evolution – see Dinosaurs of the Arctic; Nov 17, 2008; he is a religious man for whom I have a lot of respect.
“I believe in Him everytime I look at the wonder of nature.”
I see evolution when I look at the wonders of nature. Mine is a different type of reverence but no less real than yours.
My acceptance of evolution came not from biology via Darwin, but from my studies in geology, and astromomy. Geology is one of the easiest basic sciences to understand just by looking at photographs of Earth structures and doing a bit of thinking.
There are many sites on the internet on which to get information on the pros and cons regarding the reintroduction of wolves into the Northern Rockies. Anything suggested here would be obliberated in a proliferation of other sites; please, check it out on your own.
Regarding the native population of wolves in Idaho that were dispatched by those larger Canadian wolves, they were never seen and ate nothing. Now that is a good wolf!
” Regarding the native population of wolves in Idaho that were dispatched by those larger Canadian wolves, they were never seen and ate nothing. Now that is a good wolf! ”
People did see those wolves. Several people saw them. And also two FWS people in 1993 were sent to look for them. They failed to see them because they failed to put forth any real effort to do so. i did see wolves in Idaho in the Bear Valley Creek, Cape Horn Creek, meadow areas, and the Red Mountain, Miller Mountain, and Sulpher Creek areas. I also saw wolves in the Goat Mountain country while back packing in the Johnson Creek watershed, in all those locations multiple times.. Some Stanley residents who I know personally saw wolves in the valley creek area.. Also a friend in Challis did see the same wolves in those Bear valley locations, as he trapped that country for years.. I have basque friends who saw wolves near the Swanholme Range. As well the out fitter and guides working the Chamberlain Basin country saw wolves multiple times during the 1980s-90s. I have a Coeur d ” Alene hunting friend who also saw wolves in his country he has hunted and fished for thirty years.. Just last week we had a discussion about it, and we wondered if we had been seeing the coywolf.. We are still researching this out.. I also have list of names of these people along side myself who are involved in the sightings.. Including family members.. I think it is down right mean of you, continually attempting to make me out the liar.. You have no possible evidence or means to refute our claims of what we saw.. You live 700 miles from that country, and have never been in it as much as I personally have been.. With over 30,000 miles in that country on horse alone.. IDFG and FWS don’t like to talk of it either.They just wish that information would go away. You believe liars and you call truth tellers liars.. It is astonishingly clear that you want me to be a liar…
http://westinstenv.org/wildpeop/2009/12/05/wolf-recovery-and-the-corruption-of-government-science/
” On August 12, 1994, five months before a different subspecies of wolf than historically existed in Idaho was released in the state, FWS Rocky Mountain Wolf Project Leader Ed Bangs sent a letter (directive) to Boise FWS Ecological Services Chief Charles Lobdell. The five-page letter directed Lobdell and his team of research biologists to halt their documentation of the wolves that already existed in Idaho. …
During the late 1980s, … the native wolf subspecies that inhabited the Northern Rocky Mountains at that time (Canis lupus irremotus) was reportedly a smaller* wolf than the subspecies in northern Canada. (*Kaminski/Hansen 1984) …
Bangs’ [also] letter insisted, without offering any proof, that no wolf-dog hybrid or wolf raised in captivity can survive in the wild and said that once wolves were released, every wolf in the area would become part of the (protected) experimental population. Two of the four wolf recovery programs in the lower 48 states depend on wolf-coyote or reportedly even wolf-dog hybrids that are raised in captivity and then released in the wild. …
[D]enying the fact that native wolves also produced pups in central Idaho, Bangs paved the way for destroying, rather than preserving, the native subspecies if it still existed. Introduction of two different subspecies of wolves combined with protection of every wolf-like creature in the vast “Nonessential Experimental Areas” –- regardless of genetic make-up –- assured creation of a new mix of assorted hybrid wolves.
The fact that the existing resident wolves coexisted with abundant big game populations and with negligible impact on livestock and human activity was already a matter of record. Bangs admitted, both in the letter and in the Wolf EIS, that the Natural Recovery Option (doing nothing except monitor and protect existing wolves) would result in achieving recovery slower but with substantially less impact than transplanting wolves from Canada.
But from the beginning, FWS, the state game agencies and most wolf activist groups displayed no intention of pursuing any option except the Nonessential Experimental Population by importing Canadian wolves. …
During the 1980s multiple government agencies documented the existence of wolves in central Idaho. On September 28, 1987, officials of the Payette and Boise National Forests decided to close the South Fork of the Salmon River Road to all human traffic during the winter, except on Tuesdays and Thursdays, to protect the wolves. ”
I think we have a couple coywolves right here near the house now, we have seen them multiple times. The markings are very wolfy, bigger than the yotes, and smaller than the wolves I’ve seen in the last several years.. The wolves i watched as a boy, and young man, were smaller than my wolf, and shepherd, but larger than yotes.. My grandfather said they were wolves, my back packing buddy, a native Nez Perce said they looked like the wolves he had seen in his home turf..
Obviously the larger Canadian wolves will kill them right along with the coyotes they kill.. Their not around those mountain haunts anymore.. The last sighting for me was 1997 or 8…
I know what I saw..
Have I heard this before? Ya Ya, time and again. I knew that would be your rebuttle, so just tossed it out anticipating your response. I thought it a rather succinct and fairly accurate description of the wolves in Idaho at the time of reintroduction. Greg you may be correct about wolves in Idaho pre reintroduction however I shall repeat:
The native population of wolves in Idaho were never seen and ate nothing. Now that is a good wolf!
jes
It always amazed me that you assume to know what I think and believe. That is not reciprocated. At least I may have learned that you have always been a Florida rancher and not a retired western rancher. Am I wrong on that premise?
You suggested that I should leave the observation of animal behavior to those of you who were actually involved in contrast to my not really observing these events, since I was only a teacher. It is probably true that you have observed more ungulate encounters than I but they are not the only animals of significance on Earth.
Did you ever watch an encounter between an alien starling with a native red-naped sapsucker for the posession of a nest? It was a bill to bill encounter that started in a potential nest tree and ended in a ground tussle lasting about 30 minutes. Surprise, the starling won.
I like watching figure ice skating; incredible athletic abilities and flowing motion; I decided to learn the dynamics of those spins and found that all right handed skaters spin counter clockwise. At Basket Slough National Wildlife Refuge while watching about 2 dozen shovelers doing their twirling behavior to stir up food from below I noted that all singletons and pairs were spinning counter clockwise except for a single drake. I reported this observation to Cornell Lab of Ornithology and was thanked for my contribution on a current topic.
While in Maine, I watched the local population of bull and green frogs in the creek pond. I only observed one fight between the two species of frogs. The larger BF, which resided at the outlet, overturned the sacraficial, on my part, GF which could have been drowned but being a slippery opponent managed to escape from the larger frogs clutches; a fascinating battle. Green frogs during breeding season are territorial (ever heard of that before?). I would take a frog from the upstream end of the pond, put it in the territory of a lower end frog; the reaction was immediate; the resident would move toward the other which would plip into the pond and swim to its own territory, up pond., I still wonder how he oriented immediatelly to his surroundings. There were particular sounds that the green frogs made during their territorial defense. I made recordings of the “casual croaks” vs the “territorial croaks” I could go out at night and initiate different reponses depending on the type of frog call I played. I had planned on writing my masters thesis on this topic.
Wrong on two counts, Lee….I’ve cowboyed in NM for about 7 years, even though I’ve returned to my homestead ranch in the state of Florida. And I haven’t suggested you leave your own understanding or observations to those of us that have more…(I think it’s great that you are interested in wildlife, and care enough to want to protect the forest creatures) This I do myself, and I am glad you are a good observer, and have an interest in wildlife and the wildness remaining in America…..and I think that this is what makes us concerned and interested in the same problems, and solutions for these problems………We just don’t see the same answers, but I would hope that there is some learning going on from the discussion…..otherwise, what is the point?
I don’t presume to speak what your mind is thinking, but it is evident what your beliefs are after espousing them for as long as you have on this blog…Just where have I been wrong on your opinions?
I do suggest that you give those of us who have a great deal of life spent in the wild places, a credit of our observations, the same as you yourself give value to your own observations….In my opinion, they have more value than all the so-called “scientific opinions” that have scholarly labels….that you value above first hand knowledge……but do you? You seem to value your own, so then, why don’t you value those who are as competent and honest as yourself? Perhaps it is because you don’t trust your own powers of discernment? Then that should be your first concern…. If you would find the road to truth, you must look within yourself, for as Christ has told us, “the kingdom of God is within you”. But many people fear what they find within themselves, and don’t go very far because of that fear….For God is right at that door, and does not require you to open it……you must do so of your own volition.
I suppose the FWS agents were truthful in their reports, why lie, it’s not like they would need to justify their jobs eventually with saving the day and reintroducing Canadian wolves into Idaho.. All those eye witnesses across Idaho coming forward were just a bunch of stupid hicks any how.. Who would ever believe them! Why the FWS people they speak the Gospel.. Of course perhaps they sent FWS personnel out into the field of your caliber, that would explain not “seeing” Native Wolves, and or finding carcasses of deer they fed on..
I do know several people across the state, and non residents, who have failed to see the reintroduced Canadian Wolf in the last 15 years.. Who have not noticed all the extra elk carcasses we have had during that time, cast about like trash on the landscape.. Seems to me you have yet to see a wolf in the wild in Idaho.. I suppose there is something to that “seeing is believing” methodology..
I never believed those big six point buck story’s either, massive dark necks and horns, buck deer that looked like they could take on a Bull elk in the rut.. And then I killed one of those toads… 6×6x37″.. 6×7x33” .. 4×5x30″.. I became a believer.. Of course bucks of that caliber are not around anymore.. One or two maybe, those Canadian monsters are some efficient destructive sonsabitches for sure… You denialists should be proud..
We did see them wolves, that means they were here, and they were fat and sassy that means they were eating just fine..
Greg, I know you are correct in your statements regarding wolves in Idaho pre reintroduction. Perhaps in hindsite it would have been better to have established a captive breeding program in order to increase their numbers. But the wolves you speak of are in the same size range as the wolves introduced from SW Alberta well within the range of wandering wolves.
All in all, it would have been better not to have lied about the introduction of ill species into the states -AT ALL. They were never needed in the first place. I go with that idea from watching over time. It is a no good species in great numbers. As well, a steadfast open season for killing them year round to keep deseases in check and keep the nasty bastards away from us. They cause nothing but death, especially after they leave an area. And no one will be told about it and denial is causing some serious results.
VACANCY; and animal kingdom in america.
RANDOM THOUGHT THROWN OUT THERE TO CHANGE THINGS UP!
Anyone here like hockey?
Is that the one where they all fight over the dark chocolate cookie… I love that game..
As Rodney Dangerfield said, “I went to a fight the other night and a hockey game broke out.”
lol! dark chocolate cookie… I’ve never heard that one but I have heard the Rodney Dangerfield one! I’ve been following the Blackhawks for many years now and sometimes I just get a little excited at how well they’ve been doing and I can’t contain myself! Thank you for indulging me!
eegads, mention hocky and everyone disappears…
*listens to the crickets*
I suppose though it’s a lot better than the disagreements! Though in retrospect, a lot of those were learning experiences…
http://www.wtam.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=122520&article=6643204
Wonder why the male attacked…
http://www.kivitv.com/Global/story.asp?S=11823253
When I see things like this, no wonder Greg and everyone is up in arms!
Harley, the site on the other post is claiming no wolf can ever attack….Of course, they are trying to sell them as such gentle little wolfies….
http://www.freewebs.com/wolfhavenspiritofthepast/factstidbits.htm
pfft, even a city girl knows that a wolf does not make a good pet! No wild animal does! That site you linked… I just shook my head.
Happy, happy election day, everyone! I’m celebrating with a toddy for Teddy! He died at such an opportune time. And the seeds of the old Boston Tea Party are still strong and growing….may they flourish into another grand ole Liberty Tree…hallelujah!
The wolf as a pet is not going to work for most people. City people should not do it. I know several of these wolves get put down. The wife has put down three of them in her career. If a person does not know how to be the alpha then they best forget it.
heck that goes for some dog breeds as well Greg. Some people shouldn’t own animals period. My brother had a Chow. He had no control whatsoever over that dog.
Harley, unless you’re striving to set a record for the number of posts on this blog, try another post…..this one is taking too long to load! We’ll keep up with you…or you can keep up with us!
well… tell me which one I can load up with more posts!
Harley, as jes says “or you can keep up with us!” Just pick one that interests you and stay interactive on others that follow. Just click on the “Black Bear Blog’ at the top ot the page and it will bring you to a bunch of interesting topics. Happy hunting!
[...] and navigate through life and work with more meaning, acceptance and peace.Related blog postsPray, Montana Suffers Massive Wolf Kills On Elk Herd : Black Bear BlogPray, Montana Suffers Massive Wolf Kills On Elk Herd : Black Bear Blog [...]
Northern Yellowstone elk 1934
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/fauna2/fauna2b.htm
all anti wolf people are the bigest dame liars the only thing killing elk like this to reduce to these num,bers is your all poaching and blaming the wolves quite poacing u bunch of cry babies wah wah
greg farber yor an idiot cant even count if there are no more elk what are the wolves eating dummy