One Pennsylvania Sportsman’s Group Still Trying To Stop Hunting Antlerless Deer
September 13, 2007
A lawsuit over a year ago against the Pennsylvania Game Commission brought by the United Sportsmen of Pennsylvania, in which the judge tossed it out saying the USP couldn’t provide sufficient argument, wasn’t enough for this group. In that lawsuit, they claimed that essentially the PGC didn’t know how to manage deer and were wiping out the deer herd. They now are seeking a court injunction that will force the PGC to stop issuing antlerless deer permits.
The USP claim that Pennsylvania has lost 3 million deer in the past 6 years under the current management plan. I can’t confirm that number nor do I have any understanding of what that figure means or how it was derived. In talking with hunters from Pennsylvania, reports are mixed. Some say there are fewer deer but bigger and healthier deer. Others say they never see any deer when the go out, while others remain somewhere in the middle.
The general consensus that I get is that there is some concern that the issuing of antlerless permits may not be alloted per Wildlife Management District according to need. As most of you know, fish and game biologists have used the harvesting of antlerless (doe) deer as a way to control populations. If an area is determined to hold too many deer, authorities will issue more permits.
To date, several of the WMDs have sold out of antlerless permits, which leads some, myself included, to ask the question that if the problem is perceived to be severe enough that it would warrant court action to stop the PGC, wouldn’t enough hunters be concerned and take it upon themselves to not purchase an antlerless permit and only shoot bucks?
I can only imagine that unless the USP has something more substantial to base their lawsuit on, this too will soon see the circular file.
I try to keep you posted.
Tom Remington
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“To date, several of the WMDs have sold out of antlerless permits, which leads some, myself included, to ask the question that if the problem is perceived to be severe enough that it would warrant court action to stop the PGC, wouldn’t enough hunters be concerned and take it upon themselves to not purchase an antlerless permit and only shoot bucks?”
If only that were the case. It has never in history proven to be.
Each hunter makes his decisions each day based on his own expirience, the facts that are known to him, and his own best guess.
1. What he knows – “If I don’t shoot it and it’s legal, my neighbor or his neighbor probably will.”
2. What is known to him – “They sold out or are selling doe permits like they were money.”
3. His best guess – who knows what that will be, but to make your own best guess as to what most others will guess… Most hunting clubs and groups are careful to not shoot out all the breeding does on their own privately held or controlled ground. They come up with all kinds of agreements and schemes to ensure there are deer there to hunt next year.
When they get to public ground or ground they don’t have an agreement on, it’s time to fill the freezer.
Just look what market hunting has done in the past. Indiana specificly hunted white tails to extinction and it took decades of carefully controlled and limited hunting to bring it back to the success we enjoy today.
Now those hunters were killing thier livelyhood. Not just whacking one before the next guy got something to brag on at the water cooler. These were market hunters who earned a living selling the game they killed. These fed their family and brought a little cash in the household at a time when they really needed it.
Did they stop to think it over? When they were shooting that last deer in Indiana did he think maybe there would be two deer next year if he let it go? Nope, they killed every last one.
Now do you honestly think with it well known there are practically unlimited doe permits available and record numbers sold, the hunters in that area are going to “self regulate” to protect the herd?
He might once. As soon as he see’s the one he passed piled up like cord wood in the neighbor’s truck, or when he hit’s the one he let go with his truck on the way home that evening…
Forget about it.
Thanks Jack! That’s good info and just what I was looking for. Reality, got to love it.
you can do like me and other guys i hunt with and get one or two permits and EAT THEM and save a few does.
do you have a recipe for that? I’m not sure I’ve ever had antlerless permit before. Do you bake it or fry it. LOL
You know I’ve hunted deer in Maine for over 45 years and in Maine some places are hard pressed to have 6-8 deer per square mile. Maine has had the “buck only” law for at least 25 years. You can apply for an “any deer” permit, which also has been in affect for about the same length of time.
In that time I’ve never applied for an “anydeer” permit! But I can’t really give you any one or two reasons for that.
Maybe I’ve not been hungry enough to eat the paper.
I am sure glad to be in Indiana.
We don’t have to buy any kind of permit at all to NOT shoot deer if we want to save them.
I have seen does all morning and bought a doe permit while we were gone to town for lunch. Nothing jinxes a season quicker than that.
I’ve mentioned this before: many hunters in PA are upset because they used to see hundreds of deer. PA had an extreme overpopulation problem. Now that the herd is starting to balance out, deer are growing bigger. My guess would be that the guys who don’t see any deer anymore are either 1- exaggerating, or 2- not really hunting. They used to go for a walk and see tons, and going for a walk isn’t necessarily hunting…
[...] You can read about the USP lawsuit filed against the PGC here. [...]
I know this response is a bit late but I just ran across your blog. I just wanted to make something known to those readers and yourself outside of Pa that may not be up to speed on our outdoor sporting community.
The usp club is a small but vocal club who’s membership is somewhere between 600 and 2000 according to their membership guy. Though they continually like to pump that number up to give the impression they are the mainstream. And I’ve even seen them make the claim that they are the largest club in the state. Funny, and I think if that were true they’d be able to drum up way more than 1300 signatures for their lawsuit when we have just under a million hunters.
The truth is that there’s about 15 people who run this show and they don’t keep their members informed or even collect a consensus from them. This group will predictably place themselves opposite our wildlife agency and hunters, on 99% of the issues. They really do more harm than good. Some have even said they took money from hsus, though I don’t know that to be true. They make all kinds of wild claims but will dance around when ask to provide some sort of concrete evidence or science to support their claims.
My point is to please not get the impression that the majority of hunters in PA agree with this rogue group of so-called sportsmen. We really do care about the big picture, and not just about whether we easily get a deer or not.
Denny – I think generally speaking that most hunters understand the demographics that make up many of our “clubs” across the country. All too often we only hear from a small minority and thus it seems they are the majority.
Unfortunately as well, hunting organizations mirror most on issues. On both and opposite sides you have outspoken individuals attempting to speak for all while the majority too often sit quietly by and watch. Can we change that?
Denny, As a fellow PA outdoorsmen I agree with with your comments 100%. Funny how some of our more “Dutchified” fellow hunters are unable to move with the times and resist any change.
I am in no way faulting any of these people, just voicing my opinion on how complex the situation in PA is. How looking at the BIG PICTURE (instead of the narrow view held by some) can only help our sport in the future.
Denny is a “hard core” supporter and close friend of some PGC higher ups. His posts can be seen on huntingpa, a pgc run website. He is an ecoextremist.
While Im not a member, USP has 40,000 members. While They dont speak for me or any of the other huge majority of our sporting class who are not members and who absolutely have ZERO faith in the failed deer plan and the “ecoextreme” commissioners who have been appointed by members of “extreme conservationist” group members on the governors advisory board.
Tom, the majority have not “sat by quietly and watched”. Im sure you’ve heard of the Pa deer wars? Its well know what our hunters think of our gameless commission. There just isnt much we can do about it. Every possible course of action has been and is being used to no avail. They are a rogue independent agency that was set up with no form of effective check and balance system to prevent corruption. That was a HUGE mistake.
GO USP! God willing this lawsuit will bring about justice and end the reign of terror the antihunting ecoflake game commissions board majority have inflicted on our sport. You guys are in our prayers.
Tom says “you have outspoken individuals attempting to speak for all”.
As you can see, Tate is a very good example. He claims to be in the majority, obviously to give him the feeling of “fitting in” or rather to make everyone else appear to mimick his opinions. Take the name Denny for example; he doesn’t know me from the Pope, but yet in his mind I am the only Denny in the nation I guess, and also against this frivilous lawsuit.
Funny how it took his majority 6 months to find this site. I should also mention a survey on one of 2 sites these PUS (Pa Unified Sptsm.) have been relegated to, due to their limited cohorts; ask’s the question: “Do you agree with Unified’s lawsuit”
-No Way, I am tired of these guys
689 58%
Absolutely, it is about time someone stick up for hunters
418 35.2%
Yes, but scared about the can worms it may open
41 3.5%
Not real sure
39 3.3%
As you can see, nearly 2/3rds are opposed to the lawsuit, and this is from a site the Unified guys hang at!
As far as other sites, I guess by your twisted theory, not only is huntingpa run by the pgc, but bowsite, pabucks, huntingnet, wolftracks, pabackcountry, dr trout, etc are also predominatly anti lawsuit / PUS, so they must also be PGC controlled huh?
And for their membership numbers. That’s the biggest farce they have, well, besides their latest cougar hoax that is. They refuse to release their membership list for verification, but reputable sources and even former directors have said it’s much lower, and even an internal club memo had set their goal for the year at 5,000 members. That’s much lower than their various claims which are in the tens of thousands.
And now the lawsuit is at a standstill waiting on the PUS. This stagnant lawsuit has also held up the deer management audit that at one time the PUS said they were for.
And can’t you feel Tate’s love in his prior post number 13???